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I'm my own personal 40k background Gork is Khorne and Mork is Tzeentch, reflecting the Orkish tendencies to violence and political bickering.

I thought Gork was the god of cunning brutality and Mork was the god of brutal cunning or something like that.

Gork and Mork explained

Just not in detail.

As mentioned before, the Chaos Gods manifest daemons in order to directly affect the physical realm. This is because they seek to gain power, grow in strength, and like to influence the material world.

Gork and Mork, however, are Ork gods, and as such, act like Orks. They don't particularly care if anyone believes in them. The orks do, which is enough to make them the most powerful deities in the warp. They just wander around and do whatever they want. Gork and Mork don't have these weird things like goals or plans. They don't need daemons to further their schemes, because they have no schemes. They just are.

They aren't mentioned in the Daemons of Chaos book, because it's about Chaos in the warp. There are lots of hints in the fluff about warp-entities unconnected from the Chaos Gods, and Gork and Mork are just a couple of them. They are, in a way, benevolent when it comes to the creatures living in the material realm, because they just couldn't care less about pitiful 'oomans. Unless them 'umies is borkin' up da boyz, then they'll give Ghazgull a 2+ invulnerable save on the waagh to fix them roight propa.

I would say that Gork and Mork COULD be an interpretation of Khorne, because if Khorne doesn't like orks, then he's just a Khorne imitators, and we should all shun him

Sorry.

Nurglitch wrote:I'm my own personal 40k background Gork is Khorne and Mork is Tzeentch, reflecting the Orkish tendencies to violence and political bickering.

Yet various ork codex's and books saying that gork and mork beat up the chaos gods and laughed at them.

A serious theological discussion about Gork and Mork?
Only one way to settle it!

corpsesarefun:

Seems par for course for the Chaos Gods. They're nothing if not inconsistent.

Something else I'll note: the Warp and its denizens are pretty much defined as unreal, with reality being only one small corner of the Warhammer universe that the Gods occasionally notice, break into, and then forget about it in the course of more important events. In one sense they're the ultimate reality, being the Platonic essences of reality, and in another sense reality is what hangs on the edge of the Abyss. I like to think of the

I wonder how many warp being there are.

That's a simple answer: None. The Warp is the anti-thesis of being.

Lord-Loss wrote:I wonder how many warp being there are.

Every 'being' in the Warp has its own mind, yet is also merely part of a greater whole, both everything and nothing at once. Normal laws of the universe don't apply to the Warp. Visually, it's just a roiling mass of energy with 'pockets' of reality, which is where the gods have their realms and are no doubt they are mistaken by humans as glimpses of hell because they're horrifying places to look at.

Orkestra wrote: In fact, Gork and Mork are the most powerful of the entities within the warp, because they are the avatars of all of orkdom in the warp. The chaos gods, while powerful, are merely a reflection of one part of the human (or eldar/other psychically attuned races) psyche.

When a Ork has lots o' fun choppin' up humies, the pleasure he feels feeds slaanesh.

His bloodlust feeds Khorne.

The Morkier (more kunnin') a ork iz, the more he plots his morkie schemeses, see?
...and feeds Tzeentch.

Jihallah wrote:

Orkestra wrote: In fact, Gork and Mork are the most powerful of the entities within the warp, because they are the avatars of all of orkdom in the warp. The chaos gods, while powerful, are merely a reflection of one part of the human (or eldar/other psychically attuned races) psyche.

When a Ork has lots o' fun choppin' up humies, the pleasure he feels feeds slaanesh.

His bloodlust feeds Khorne.

The Morkier (more kunnin') a ork iz, the more he plots his morkie schemeses, see?
...and feeds Tzeentch.

No.

An Ork mind must be so..different from a humans or an eldars.
So different the Chaos gods might be unable to feed off them. The Orks created the Gods out of there emotions. Why are they unable to feed the Chaos Gods? We can only guess.

Orkestra wrote:Gork and Mork explained

Gork and Mork, however, are Ork gods, and as such, act like Orks. They don't particularly care if anyone believes in them. The orks do, which is enough to make them the most powerful deities in the warp. They just wander around and do whatever they want. Gork and Mork don't have these weird things like goals or plans. They don't need daemons to further their schemes, because they have no schemes. They just are.

Reading that brought the Joker to mind.

"Do I really look like a guy with a plan? You know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it. You know, I just... do things. The mob has plans, the cops have plans, Gordon's got plans. You know, they're schemers. Schemers trying to control their little worlds. I'm not a schemer."

HiddenPower wrote:lord-loss i agree they dont affect the world dirrectly but they do affect it unlike gork and mork.

examples:
Khorne beating up skar brand and messing up his wings= a 40k character that does appear in the real 40k universe with signs that he was affected by khorn himself

Slanesh and his birth warp scream= endangered species for the eldar

tzench dipping fateweaver into the well of info thing= fateweaver having two heads and being a true character in 40k

But for gork and mork can anybody give me an example of them affecting the real 40k unioverse indirectly? Ghazgull i dont believe counts because in the codex it says it that it could be delusions and he CLAIMS that it be gork and mork.
another thing i would like to point out, a lot of the other warp entities seem to have some sort of direct representation to the real world. The big 4 have their demons the Emperor you can argue has his martys and holy miracles proof being in the SoB and their heroes, and even the eldar have the avatars of khaine but no gork and mork stuff

Gork can step on people, although the current weirdboy rules don't include rules for it.

Seriously though, I figure orks are too pure of a concept. A bloodthirster isn't what humanity is, they're a representation of humanity's rage and.. erm.. bloodthirst, but Gork and Mork are made of orkiness. You represent orkiness with an ork, that's about all you can do. It's circular, there's no conflict - or difference even, really - between the orks in the material universe and Gork and Mork in the warp.


With regards to Gork, Mork, and Khorne, this is from one of the old books (I want to say Waaagh! Da Orks, but I'm not sure):

ORKS AND CHAOS
There is no predilection for Chaos among the Orks; indeed, Orks are much less likely to turn to Chaos than Humans or other races. This is due to the fact that the Ork race is relatively stable and content. There is little psychic stress or angst among the Orks, which leaves virtually no avenue through which Chaos can invade their minds. Some races confuse Orks as being evil and thus synonymous with Chaos. This is a misunderstanding on their part, however.
Orks are not inherently evil; neither is Chaos. Likewise, Orks do not naturally or consistently affiliate with the forces of Chaos. Orks simply live by the crude survival-of-the fittest principles that pervade the universe. Warlike civilizations, such as that of the Orks, simply reflect these survivalist principles all the more. By the same token, Chaos is neither good nor evil; it simply mirrors the survivalist emotions of intelligent beings in the real universe. Thus, predatory powers of Chaos, be they deities or daemons, exist because living things generate these emotions.
By analogy, there are gargantuan Ork powers in the warp -powers that are the reflections of the Orks' cheerfully irresponsible and warlike nature. At the same time, it is possible for Orks to overindulge their taste for militarism and bloodshed, which will ultimately lead them to Khorne. Indeed, Khorne does feed on these aspects of Orkish character; this shows in the very face of Khorne, which has markedly Orkish aspects.
Most of their enemies would agree that Orks lack many of the finer qualities found in the various races of the universe. Not surprisingly, Orks have no second thoughts about fighting alongside servants of Chaos, especially in return for pay or loot. Orks are not easily impressed by Chaos, since a typical Ork raider is likely to be exposed to manifestations of Chaos as he rampages about the less orderly parts of the galaxy. He is also less liable to be tempted by lure of Chaos power and sell his soul than many other races. This is in contrast to the unfortunate Humans who live in ratholes of hive worlds or desperately trying to build civilizations in inhospitable environments. These suffer from the stress of day-to-day survival. They become suspicious of the unknown and begin to look inwardly to find irrational explanations for their problems and misfortunes.

I think the reason that Gork and Mork aren't more dangerous is that they are eternally confused over why the "other" green God in the Warp keeps making them sick whenever they try to talk to him.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I think the reason that Gork and Mork aren't more dangerous is that they are eternally confused over why the "other" green God in the Warp keeps making them sick whenever they try to talk to him.

I concur with Jihallah.

The Chaos Gods aren't human specific, they are emotion specific. They have race specific subportions.

Gork is much like Khaine, both are the Khornate aspects of a particular race. Gork doesn't have Avatars or Daemons, because Orks don't need such things.

Mork is a similar kind of guy, only he represents the Tzeentchy bits of Orkdom. Low cunnin and such.

Orks aren't Nurgly enough or Slaaneshy enough to have a race specific sub-deity.

A note on my heretical fluff:

The Chaos Gods aren't "Human Gods", and they aren't strengthened or diminished by emotion: the interface, between the physical world of reality and the non-physical world of emotion and ideas, changes depending on the intensity of the emotions involved, the amount of activity (such as souls being cast adrift rather than being anchored to a real-space object), and so on.

So increasing despair doesn't strengthen Nurgle, but it does bring more of Him into the universe, and makes Him more present. Like Nurgle, there's no actual 'thing' that is despair, and this concurrent increase in nothing real or physical increases the warp-saturation in an area, its participation in that underlying nature of reality, the commensurate loss of structure in relation to that part of reality.

40kenthusiast wrote:The Chaos Gods aren't human specific, they are emotion specific.

But orks and humans aren't motivated to do the same actions by the same emotions.

The phrase "there are gargantuan Ork powers in the warp -powers that are the reflections of the Orks' cheerfully irresponsible and warlike nature. At the same time, it is possible for Orks to overindulge their taste for militarism and bloodshed, which will ultimately lead them to Khorne" seems to make some distinction between the two driving emotions of each god ("cheerfully warlike" versus "overindulgent in bloodshed"). Even if they intersect in some parts (and I would guess all of the chaos gods intersect each other in some way, I think Slaanesh has been used as an example of this before), calling one an aspect of the other seems to be painting them with pretty broad strokes.

Concept: Look, Orks fight some IG. Gork grows stronger from the Orks Waaagh. Khorne grows stronger from both side's aggression. One of these is broader than the other.

Quote: I don't have the books before me, but one sentence in a cannon as fractious as 40k doesn't make proof. Look at the Daemon codex, I'll bet you can find the Chaos Gods described as 'universal', 'all-encompassing' or some such. If not there, any book that has a Greater Daemon in it, or a glimpse of the Chaos Gods. (in particular, the description of Tzeentch in the first Grey Knight book was pretty clear on him being universal. There really isn't any room for poor Mork if he's not a green piece of Tzeentch)

In all honesty, GW doesn't have an answer for this. It's a setting bit they have no vested interest in clarifying, like Farsight's master. But from the perspective of a fan making sense of things, racial subtypes for various races names for the Chaos Gods makes sense, as opposed to the can of worms that comes out of an independent Gork and Mork. (Khorne DOES care from whence the blood flows. If its from Orks, he leaves it to his good buddy Gork!)

I hardly think the simplest "solution" here is to make some gods secretly be other gods, with nothing in the fluff to indicate that this is the case. Do you have a piece of fluff that contradicts the piece of fluff specifically written about Khorne and the other chaos god's relation with the orks and their gods? It's an awfully specific subject to have retcons of.

Also, I don't think their being "universal" doesn't have much to do with it. Obviously Tzeentch and Slaanesh can be universal without being the same god, so why would Gork and Khorne have to be the same?

I guess there's also the question of whether tyranids and necrons fighting over resources pleases Khorne in the same way humans fighting does.

Notion: It's an easy and elegant solution though, it handles the Khaine/Khorne nonsense, explains the lack of Daemons of Gork, etc. Gork as big green Bloodthirster works perfectly, and it isn't like it precludes the quote you've mentioned. Bits of Khorne fight all the time, its pretty much all the they do. His green bit would fight his red bits as eagerly as they fight each other, and he himself would war with Khorne in pretty much the manner described.

I could even buy the notion that Gork is a composite composed mostly of Khorne with some Nurgle thrown in. Orks enjoy aggression more than the usual Khornate beings, which are grim and humorless, it sort of reminds me of the GUO's attitude.

Fluff: The Chaos Daemon codex describes the Chaos Gods, as does the main rulebook. I'm pretty sure you can find something in there which references Khorne as being "every drop of blood spilled", or some such. It's pretty clear, the Big 4 are universal. (Once again, reference Tzeentch in the book Grey Knights, where he is all lies, all conspiracy, etc. There isn't an "Except for Orkish lies, which belong to Mork" in there.) Reading the Liber, the 4 are actually the terrain of the Warp, as well as its lords.

Tzeentch and Slaanesh are universal without being the same God, but they feed off different emotions. Gork is aggression, Khorne is aggression. It's just that Khorne is described, everywhere, as an absolutely universal constant. He has the broader scope (consider my earlier example, Orks vs. IG, both sides feed Khorne). Gork is a peer of Khaine, a seperate and self contained segment of Khorne.

An aside here to point out that Gork may well be Khorne's original form. Orks were created by the Old Ones way back in the day, long before there were humans. It's entirely possible that Khorne only became the main name after humans took over. Gork would probably have been the first of the aggressive impulses to congeal into a Warp God, alongside Khaine. Or maybe Khorne has always been the aggregate of the personifications of the aggressive component races? Interesting thoughts...

Crons: I guess the question there is whether Khorne actually cares about fighting. I'd argue that while his Daemons would say he does, in truth he's the Deity of aggression/anger/those feelings, and wouldn't derive any power from machines fighting, in the same way that asteroids smashing against each other don't feed him.

I'll take an aside here to note that whether or not Necrons have vestigal consciences imprisoned from the original Necrontyr would come into this at this point. If they do, and those consciousness hate, Khorne would be pleased. If they are just robots (which is my preferred explanation of crons), I'd say he wouldn't notice or care.

Nids: Nids are definitely psykers (or one big psyker, depending on your viewpoint), and they are definitely aggressive, so I'd say that they feed Khorne. Whether you think the Hive Mind is the whole race functioning as a Psyker or whether you think its a Chaos God would definitely come into it though.

I think we're in disagreement over the concept of "aggression".

"Aggression" can be an emotion, but it just as readily describes an action; a gun drone can be aggressive with regards to the way it performs what it was instructed to do, a chess player can be aggressive with regards to his opening moves. That doesn't mean that they're under the same emotions that a berserker is.

Aggression in humans comes from rage, hatred, a desire for vengeance, concern for the destruction of your enemies overcoming the concern for your own self-interest, etc. It's primarily driven by Khornate traits. Even conflict started by, say, gun drones is going to feed Khorne if humans are involved, because they respond to attack with anger and a desire for revenge.

Aggression in necrons comes from the instructions of their superiors, and the most logical way of carrying out those instructions.

Aggression in orks can come from a variety of sources, but it's usually just a display of their natural tendencies. They do feel rage, some of the time, but they also respond with aggression to boredom, minor annoyance, desire to have whatever shiny thing his friend has, boredom, intoxication, and pretty much anything else that happens in an ork's life.

What's the difference between an ork deciding to stomp on grots fer a laff, and an ork deciding to speed around in his new buggy? One is aggression, but both can easily be a result of the same emotions and desires in an ork. Conflict is natural to them, shying away from it would probably bring an ork closer to Nurgle or something along those lines, simply because it would require a highly deviant set of emotions/motives for an ork to do so.

Then there's the factor of Orks and Khorne doing very little with one another, despite the fact that in terms of actual fighting and warfare there's far more of it with the orks than there is with the humans. In that regard, it would be Khorne who is an aspect of Gork; the human emissary to the greater god of warfare.

I have to disagree with the ork goods= shoas gods for this reason: the chaos gods have to be created some how example sleeenesh(speeling), this means that the ork gods could exist but would only feed of ork emotions cause the orks think they do. Also the tyranids probably dont feed the choas gods(shodow in the war thing and some refrences) they all pretty much lack a soul and that one hive mind thing could probably count as a god.

Its possible that Orks dont even feel rage and agression. There so different to humans.

They fight cause they enjoy it unlike Berzerkers who feel lots of rage and agression.

I think it's a difference in the amount of anger required to get a certain reaction.

If a human's subordinate messes something up, he'll probably get yelled at. If an ork's subordinate messes something up (and his boss actually notices), he'll get yelled at, and probably either punched, chopped, or shot, depending on what da boss is holding in his hand at the time.

However, that's a not a difference in the amount of anger they feel, it's a difference what their race's natural reaction to that level of anger is.

I hate having to cross ref. things here, but it needs to be done

40k and WHFB meet once again

Gork and Mork in WHFB are magical, using thier powers to stamp on units and punch them, now, using the fluff that has created them im guessing it would be the same in 40k, except you drop magic and replace it with the warp (since thats what its been substituted for)

I would say that G&M are warp entities, much like the chaos gods, but they tend to be more preserved in what they do, and not get involved alot.

To that end, Gork and Mork are the Gods of Orkiness, therefore their Avatars in the real universe are simply good old Orks. Nothing to do with them pancy Chaos Gods :p

All Gods are Chaos Gods, in 40k.