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I think all greenskins are krork.

Because if anyone is a reliable witness, it's Mephet'ran, the Deceiver.

I know but, he does tell truths when he needs too and there would be no reason for him to hide the fact ork are kork cause he probably is gonna kill the guy hes talking to and that information dosnt really have any effect cause everyone knows orks cover alot of space and all it is him calling them by the name he assostiates with them the most like mon-kigh for us with eldar.

Sure, but in the story in question Mephet'ran didn't need to tell the truth, and always has a reason to lie: to sweeten the morsel he is about to consume, and because he likes to feth with people.

Furthermore, if we only have the Deceiver's word for whether there's any significant relation between the krork and the orks, then there may be no 'fact' to be concealed, and the krok are not the orks.

Nurglitch you are good, and I mean that. Also in the ork codex the brianboys are said to die in a plauge and in the necron codex the necrons are refered as a plauge and the kork never got assulted by the nightbringer enough to fear death like us and the eldar, and the orks heve verry little fear for death really

the orks are not scared of any thing at lest it says in the codex

As far as Im aware all the chaos gods are emotions given form in the warp. In this manner they are empowered by creatures feeling the emotion that corrispond to them.. aggression khrone; hope Tzeencth.

I remember reading one of the last chancers novels and kage was possessed, the daemon within him didn't feel anything from the orks.. kinda like they are on a differnet vibration. Meaning the daemon wasn't interested in them because he couldn't feed of them.

To me these two above paragrapghs mean that Chaos Gods are unable to fight eachother in any meaningful way beacuse their lifeblood/force is out of reach. It also means that Gork and Mork exist and are completely different to chaos type gods because chaos gods need a specific type or flavor of an emotion.

The Ctan are stupid aliens.

The eldar gods are extremely weak warp entities tied to a specifc flavour emotion of which there is not much of.

Feel free to explain how wrong I am but that how I alwyas understood it.

Dude thats the way I see it. I mean I hate to bring this refrnece up but in this star trek novel I read these "God" like beings required worship but it had to be directed to them to work

Don't base your ideas from star trek.
Just because that's the way it is in star trek doesn't mean it will be the same in 40k. The only ones who really worship the gods are the word bearers. Every other warband(that I know of) do thier worshipping on the battle by killing the enemies of the gods.

Im not bassing it completly that idea of worship charging the gods comes from a couple places, the Age of Ra this book i just read had it and it is made by a company owned by Black Library

The idea of Gods deriving power from worship is ultimately uninteresting, theologically speaking. The interesting thing about Gods is not that they need mortals, in any sense, but that mortals need them and need to sacrifice to them. That's why you get things like the story of Abraham making to sacrifice Isaac, questions about why God would allow there to be evil in the world, and so on. It's in the nature of Gods to come first, and humanity to be secondary and in relation to the Godhead.*

Lucretious the Roman Epicurean Poet argued that in being perfect and wholly content the Gods would not interfere with the affairs of mortals, but I think that Lucretious was talking against the notion of Gods as simply powerful people, rather than against the idea of Gods being the foundation of nature. After all, the point of Lucretious' argument was that mortals shouldn't worry about the Gods taking an interest (adverse or otherwise), and instead worry about the nature of reality.

The Chaos Gods, to my mind, are like a dark mirror of the Epicurean Gods in that they are both perfect and wholly content, but also involved in the affairs of mortals. And they get involved in the affairs of mortals precisely because they are fundamental to the nature of reality. It is in their 'super-nature', to coin a term, to be both apart from and intrinsic to the human condition.

The background material on Chaos Spawn is the best exemplar of this, where the Chaos Gods 'gift' their Champions, but do so according to their own capricious and indifferent natures rather than to help or hinder the Champion. They don't do it because they favour the Champion in any recognizable sense of supporting him, they do it because doing so reflects their own interests.

That's why I like to take the tack that worship of the Chaos Gods is an effect, rather than a cause, of the waxing of the Warp, and the breakdown of reality. As reality breaks down, people respond to the revelation of Divinity and turn to religion.

When the Dark Powers act in harmony that reality stabilizes, like it did during the Great Crusade as the Dark Powers worked together to destroy the ambitions of the Emperor.

So a good theodicy of Warhammer 40k doesn't try to explain away the existence of evil in the universe, as being instrumental in some higher good, but rather explains that evil exists precisely because the universe is in its essence amoral and uncaring. Remember that Chaos Space Marines are damned, not because they forsake the Emperor, but because they turn away from sacrificing themselves, and put their own selfish interests first.

*The philosophical point that people made Gods in their own images was not a comment about the nature of Gods, but offered as an argument for atheism.

Some deep stuff. Yeah.A god is basically what a person ideal,morals and views are embodied.For example you could have a god who embodies good and light(like the tradional view of god)or you could have the element based gods9simalar to what pacific islanders do.
Your god could be a a 30ish year old nailed to a peice of wood or maybe a god who's magic animal is a dog.But basically a god is what people want to see and strive to be or what you should not be (in the case of the chaos gods or satan.)

Nurglitch, your theory on the four Chaos gods being the only true four, others being facets of these four, is contradictied in the 40k fluff. Reading through Lexicanum, I came across these paragraphs that discounts your theory:

"Cegorach - the Great Harlequin, the Great Fool, the First Fool, the Laughing God - is one of the gods of Eldar myth, and the central figure of Harlequin belief. While most of the gods were destroyed during the Fall of the Eldar, according to legend, this deity survived because his mocking nature distanced him from the corruption and decadence that became Slaanesh. Cegorach is the only authority the Harlequins recognize."

Here it clearly states the Slaanesh was created by the corruption and decadence of the then Eldar, and such the other three Chaos "Gods" are merely reflections of Human emotions and attributes.. Also, to help with the explanation of Gork and Mork:

"Gork and Mork are the twin gods of the Orks. Ork traits and emotions have a reflection in the warp the same as the traits and emotions of Humans and Eldar do."

Again it clearly states that Gork and Mork are warp reflections of Ork nature, such as the four Chaos Gods are warp reflections of Human/ Eldar/ others traits and emotions. Going back to the argument on who would be stronger, I would agree with the theory that Gork and Mork are the superior. My reasoning is that because Ork nature is so "simple" and one sided, only two entities are needed to reflect their nature, coincidentally the two "Gods" are very similar ie. Orkish nature is straightfoward survival of the fittest, and Gork and Mork represent the strongest and fittest of all ork kind, which all orks aspire to be like.

And finally:

"In the early history of the galaxy, the powers of the warp had yet to form into distinct entities but rather the emotions of mortals flowed and ebbed as water does in a stream. As the mortal races grew and prospered, so did the strength of their emotions. Eventually the gods grew to such a point where they could act independently of the general flow of emotions and thus were formed with gods of Chaos. They reached into the dreams of mortals and demanded praise and servitude in order to increase their own power, as the more one emotion is exhibited (in both thought and action) the stronger that god becomes. The first three gods became sentient by the end of M2 but Slaanesh didn't fully awaken until the Fall of the Eldar in M29."

Done and done.

All praise the wealth of knowledge that is lixicanum, and the fact i dont share gods with umies.....

Orkfantic wrote:All praise the wealth of knowledge that is lixicanum, and the fact i dont share gods with umies.....

I hope that was sarcasm, When ever I hear people quote from lexicrap It make me want to throw up all over my computer screen.

There's a running story throughout Waaargh The Orks about a Mekboy named Ushbek who starts a Waaargh! rolling by building two gargants (one each for G/M). Throughout the story, there are segments which basically talk about G/M waking up and ignoring the attempts by the other gods to thwart them (the "Chaos Powers" apparently follow in the wake of the Waaargh!, taking advantage of its effects). The Emp' opens his eyes in fear (that's a major reaction for a mostly-dead guy), Gork cause earthquakes and windstorms by peeking out of the warp and the simple act of waking up and looking around drives the suicide/violent crime rate up across the entire galaxy.

Does that make them real? Does it make them gods? Call it however you personally see it, but dead 'ard is dead 'ard no matter what you label it.