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Except, by RAW, it doesn't.

UNless you can provide some rules?

P45 Bio Acid. Strength: 3 AP: 3

Unless my codex is outdated.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except, by RAW, it doesn't.

UNless you can provide some rules?

Ridcully wrote:P45 Bio Acid. Strength: 3 AP: 3Unless my codex is outdated.

Confirming Ridcully has it correct.

Ridcully wrote:P45 Bio Acid. Strength: 3 AP: 3

Unless my codex is outdated.

This is correct, however it is also irrelvant when dealing with AV.
They have a special rule that says they use 2d6+3 versus AV.
Note: This is not 3+2d6.


Tourneys have ruled variously on this, and are for this reason (in addition to others) not worth mentioning.

kirsanth wrote:Note: This is not 3+2d6.

Math Disagrees with you :(

You're arguing about the order...? That seems ludicrous. A silly way for Farsight, and any other similarly worded models, to get around a pretty straight forward rule that deliberately attempts to cover everything. No matter what. No matter if it's worded backwards with identical meaning.

p51 words the monsterous creatures penetration as 2d6+S. They're listed as an example in the monolith entry of adding dice for armour penetration. What more do you need?

The problem is not the order 3+2D6 or 2D6+3 as you say no difference.

Bio-Acid spore mines do not use their strength they apply a "special rule" it just so happens that the special rule says you always role 2D6+3 to penetrate vehicle armour.

So they could be strength 10 if you like, you would still have to roll 2D6+3 which is why I think kirsanth was saying it was irrelevant.

If that's the case, then Eldrich Storm and Farsight are included in this. Their strength has likewise "just so happened" to equal the figure added to 2d6 for armour penetration.

Nope.
Not arguing order, pointing out that it is relevant, however. This is related for the same reason the hole in the center of the blast is not relevant to the dice rolls for armor pen.

They roll 2d6+3 even if the blast marker barely touches the vehicle.

3+2d6 leads to an inference that the "3" is the stregth value of the Bio-Acid - which is not the case.
2d6+3 is obviously a special rule, akin to the 3d6 for vindicares.

shrug

kirsanth wrote:3+2d6 leads to an inference that the "3" is the stregth value of the Bio-Acid - which is not the case.
2d6+3 is obviously a special rule, akin to the 3d6 for vindicares.

Order has absolutely nothing to do with it. Nothing. Not a thing. All three examples imply the figure comes from the base strength, even though they are written in your preferred order. But to quote Oscar Wilde:

"I'm happy for you to have your bio acid's 1/36 chance of armour penetration against a monolith if my Farsight gets a 1/6 chance of armour penetration."

So you think bio-acid mines roll 1+2d6 when the hole is not over the vehicle?

Ridcully wrote:

kirsanth wrote:3+2d6 leads to an inference that the "3" is the stregth value of the Bio-Acid - which is not the case.
2d6+3 is obviously a special rule, akin to the 3d6 for vindicares.

Order has absolutely nothing to do with it. Nothing. Not a thing. All three examples imply the figure comes from the base strength, even though they are written in your preferred order. But to quote Oscar Wilde:

"I'm happy for you to have your bio acid's 1/36 chance of armour penetration against a monolith if my Farsight gets a 1/6 chance of armour penetration."

THe reason it is not S3 is that it always rolls 2D6+3, even when the hole is not over the model. THis means that there cannot be a normal strength component, as it does not folow the normal armour penetration rules.

Ugh what? No. If we were saying the bio acid is affected by the monolith, then it would use its strength and a d6 no matter what. I don't understand how 1+2d6 fits into either of those categories, seeing as 1 isn't the strength an 2d6 isn't the limit.

Edit: Btw this post was for kirsanth. I see what you're saying, with the hole bit.

Gwar! wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Note: This is not 3+2d6.

Math Disagrees with you :(

I am not saying the equation results in a different result when written as the book uses it instead of the examples here.

cykosis wrote:So they could be strength 10 if you like, you would still have to roll 3+2D6 which is why I think kirsanth was saying it was irrelevant.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ridcully wrote: All three examples imply the figure comes from the base strength, even though they are written in your preferred order.

If it was strength related, it would be halved and rounded down.
1+2d6.

It is a special rule, not bonus dice.

And you're arguing that Farsight and Eldrich Storm are likewise valid monolith destroyers, yes?

No, I am talking about bio-acid spore mines.

But I will read more.

If you haven't already:

Eldrich S:3 AP-

"vehicles touched by the template suffer a hit with 2D6+3 armour penetration"

Farsight S:5

"rolls 2d6+5 when rolling to penetrate the armour of a vehicle"

Both equally valid.

And both seem to be valid exceptions to the monolith rules.

Falconlance wrote:I don't understand why this is so difficult to get. Is it a "Your codex says NEVER and mine says ALWAYS issue?

Ridcully wrote:If you haven't already:

Eldrich S:3 AP-

"vehicles touched by the template suffer a hit with 2D6+3 armour penetration"

Farsight S:5

"rolls 2d6+5 when rolling to penetrate the armour of a vehicle"

Both equally valid.

I don't see the word always in there

nosferatu1001 wrote:And both seem to be valid exceptions to the monolith rules.

To which I have only a few things to add:
1) Generally bonus dice are denied vs Living armor. Specifically a small set of weapons/attacks state that they use a different method vs AV.
2) The Tyranid FAQ goes a steps farther than either codex and states that the bio-acid always uses a special rule, not its str + dice.
3) Both myself and the (only) Necron player I game with regularly have the older Necron Codex - which has caused issues before.

cykosis wrote:

Falconlance wrote:I don't understand why this is so difficult to get. Is it a "Your codex says NEVER and mine says ALWAYS issue?

Ridcully wrote:If you haven't already:

Eldrich S:3 AP-

"vehicles touched by the template suffer a hit with 2D6+3 armour penetration"

Farsight S:5

"rolls 2d6+5 when rolling to penetrate the armour of a vehicle"

Both equally valid.

I don't see the word always in there

Yours doesn't say always either. He's quoting an FAQ.

Yes the official FAQ from the GW site.

Show me the FAQ which says Eldrich storm and Farsight always use etc...

lol

Fine. If you show me why they need an FAQ specifying always with regard to halving strength, then i'll show you where in the FAQ it says it. Because that's what the 'nidz FAQ is.

You mean "No, because they do not use their basic strength and apply a special rule instead. Bio-acid Spore Mines always roll 2D6+3 to penetrate vehicle armour, giving an average value of 10" is vague?

Or you think the "always" is unrelated to armor pen?

Vague? No, very specific. Had Eldrich Storm not specified that any vehicle even touched by the template takes a certain hit, they would rightly deserve the very same FAQ. The fact that Farsight doesn't use a blast marker means his armour penetration always remains the same.

Aiming spore mines at the monolith in the first place is the real problem, imo.

Having them hit the monolith because the blasts touch it while hitting warriors is fine, and this invokes the "always" without question.

So lesson = shoot at the correct target.

(Also, does the Living Metal rule actually state "never" now?)

It says 'no matter what' in the one i have. Other than that it's your basic "so-and-so do not get extra dice" and "so-and-so do not work against..." etc.

LM: works against weapons in general for that specific vehicle

BioAcid: works against all vehicles for that specific weapon.

Both seem equally specific.

Can we not compromise and let the Acid Mine roll 2D4?

nosferatu1001 wrote:LM: works against weapons in general for that specific vehicle

BioAcid: works against all vehicles for that specific weapon.

Both seem equally specific.

Except in the case of the LM, there are examples that get around it.

No bonus or additional is used for Bio-acid, just a special rule that can "always" apply.