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Tri wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

tiekwando wrote:yeah but at least DE are competitive...

So? Space Wolves were competative, but they were also the Oldest Printed codex, so GW decided to do them. DE is a Hybrid 2e/3e codex ffs.

If i ran GW i would have released the 5th Edtion and a rules update book, so that the older armies worked agreeably till they got a new codex.

If a Chimp with Alzheimer's ran GW it would be better managed than it is now. If I ran GW I would Release a the Rules Update Book like you said, and then once all the Legacy Codexes are updated to 5th, re-release the Rulebook as v5.5 to clear up the issues that have been found.

Then again, I would also make fething errata actually errata instead of FAQs and hire Yakface to review it every 3-4 months, but that's just me.

What about the rending rule? That's not an extra D6, it's D3.

Nope, no rending either

tiekwando wrote:Nope, no rending either

Why not? The rule says Additional D6, not D3's.

Emperors Faithful wrote:What about the rending rule? That's not an extra D6, it's D3.

its additional penetration dice so that covers D3 . (no mention is ever made on the number of sides the additional dice have)

I didn't see the source mentioned, so I thought I would add that the bio-acid always does 2d6+3 for armor penetration based on the Tyranid FAQ. This is a special rule, and not based on the mines base strength.

Tri wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:What about the rending rule? That's not an extra D6, it's D3.

its additional penetration dice so that covers D3 . (no mention is ever made on the number of sides the additional dice have)

Ah I see. Good Call GW for once

Spetulhu wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Cheexsta wrote:Raise your hand if you think the Monolith severely needs a complete rules rewrite...

To be perfectly honest, Necrons can get a re-write as soon as Dark Eldar get one.

Hmm... not a bad suggestion. While WBB and LM are bad there's a lot more 3rd edition weirdness in the Deldar codex. The wargear and the prices need an overhaul, as well as just about every special rule they have.

I cannot agree more... getting 10 point dark lances are the cheese on 8 point troop choices :(

On 4th Jan 2008 I wrote to GW and asked them

"I was wondering about the bio acid mines from a Biovore and the damage they do to a monolith. It says 2d6+3 for armour penetration for the mine, but against a monolith only one dice is allowed for the living metal rule. Does the acid mine get one or two dice plus three against a monolith?"

I got a reply

"We will get back to you with an answer as soon as possible. We recommend that you check all of the relevant rules resources which are:

The main rulebook
The appropriate army book, codex or supplement
The Official Errata"

They didn't get back to me.

You can argue the point both ways by reading the erratas and codex's , just make sure you talk about it and agree it with who you are playing before hand. The chance is so small you'll do anything the Necron player shouldn't say you can't use 2D6+3.

cykosis wrote:They didn't get back to me.

No Surprises there.

Or we could say no because we need all the help we can get

tiekwando wrote:Or we could say no because we need all the help we can get

LOL you are beyond help if you need protecting from the floating free kill point bags.

I've done some digging and uncovered the rule pack for the Throne of skulls GT finals this year.

"How do Bio-Acid Spore Mines work against the Necron Monolith’s ‘Living Metal’ rule?
The Necron Monolith’s Living Metal rule takes precedence – they only cause 1D6+3 armour
penetration in this case."

So if you go with the latest UK GT rules - spore mine Vs Monolith = FAIL

I don't understand why this is so difficult to get. Is it a "Your codex says NEVER and mine says ALWAYS issue?

Falconlance wrote:I don't understand why this is so difficult to get. Is it a "Your codex says NEVER and mine says ALWAYS issue?

Necron codex says "Never roll more than 1D6+S againt the Monolith. All other Bonus Dice are ignored". Bio-Acid Rolls 2D6+3 as a special rule. They are conflicting rules that contradict each other.

Gwar! wrote:

Falconlance wrote:I don't understand why this is so difficult to get. Is it a "Your codex says NEVER and mine says ALWAYS issue?

Necron codex says "Never roll more than 1D6+S againt the Monolith. All other Bonus Dice are ignored". Bio-Acid Rolls 2D6+3 as a special rule. They are conflicting rules that contradict each other.

Eldritch storm uses the same 2d6+3 rule, but I don't see how that could be interpreted to override living metal...

Ah the devil is in the details.

Eldric Storm says "Vehicles touched by the template suffer a hit with 2D6+3 Armour penetration", and is shown to be a S3 Ranged attack.

Bio Acid mines "roll 2D6+3 to Penetrate Vehicle Armour". That minute wording difference is what causes the trouble.

Gwar! wrote:Ah the devil is in the details.

Eldric Storm says "Vehicles touched by the template suffer a hit with 2D6+3 Armour penetration", and is shown to be a S3 Ranged attack.

Bio Acid mines "roll 2D6+3 to Penetrate Vehicle Armour". That minute wording difference is what causes the trouble.

GWAR! I imagine your desk is actually a book case with excel sheets taped to it with the page numbers listed for each and every rule ever written in each and every codex ever published.

Falconlance wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Ah the devil is in the details.

Eldric Storm says "Vehicles touched by the template suffer a hit with 2D6+3 Armour penetration", and is shown to be a S3 Ranged attack.

Bio Acid mines "roll 2D6+3 to Penetrate Vehicle Armour". That minute wording difference is what causes the trouble.

GWAR! I imagine your desk is actually a book case with excel sheets taped to it with the page numbers listed for each and every rule ever written in each and every codex ever published.

Naw, I just own all the codex's and read them a lot

I actually have a cheat sheet for the most Frequently asked questions (For example, I know that Page 66 is the Page where it states how to measure to a model on a transport off by heart now )

Which wording exactly? And how does each interact differently?

There is the precedence of the Vindicaire. He gets to roll 3d6 to penetrate the Monolith.

The difference between him and a Spore mine is the fact that the Vindi only gets 3d6, no strength at all. the 3d6 is his strength and penetration roll together. The Spore Mine has a strength plus a die roll. The Monolith's SR essentially says that you may only ever add 1d6 to a strength stat to determine penetration against it.

A monolith taken down by a Vindicare bullet. Wouldn't that be something along the lines of the squirrel in Ice Age?

Not quite, Bio acid mines do not use their strength at all either. I do not have my codex with me but I believe bio-acid doesn't have a strength.

The +3 isn't the mines strength it is a special rule. This is clarified in the Tyranid FAQ.

The Vindicare assassin also uses a special rule, but this has not been covered in an FAQ that I have seen for when shooting at a monolith.

Applying the same GW logic the Vindicare assassin would get 1D6 on the penetration roll vs a Monolith.

But the rule says 'extra' D6. With the vindicare, the 3D6 is the BASE. It's what you start and end with. No extras.

I understand that.

The rule for a bio acid spore mine to penetrate a vehicle is 2D6+3. The +3 is not strength. The 2D6+3 is the rule.

As you put it:

It's what you start and end with. No extras.

The latest FAQ the I have seen for the UK GT stated that against a monolith said a Bio-Acid mine gets 1D6+3 against a Monolith.

Now this is just a GT FAQ and they can change like the wind but this is what it says.

As I said before you can argue the point both ways by reading the erratas and codex's , just make sure you talk about it and agree it with who you are playing before hand. The chance is so small you'll do anything the Necron player shouldn't say you can't use 2D6+3. I'll add that if they do say you can't use 2D6+3 you haven't lost anything, you shouldn't be wasting spore mines against the monolith in the first place.

And the vindicare?

Well nothing is officially covered in an FAQ for the Vindicare against a Monolith so it is up to you to discuss and agree with who you are playing with.

I don't own the Witch Hunters Codex, one of the few I don't, however looking at their FAQ on the GW website I think the turbo penetrator round is 3D6+3 with rending. This gives a penetration score between 5 and 30, the average being 10 or 11. If you can't decide roll a dice to do so for you, or the last man standing with a dreadsock wins.

small correction, if it is 2d6+3 i think the average is going to be 10 (the most common number being a seven) with 3d6 it is 10.5 so it would be 13.5 with the bonus 3 strength. that does not include any rending bonus (how does that work with 3d6 dice, not that it would work on a monolith anyways)

You get a rend on any 6 you roll, same as normal - a rending MC would have 2 chances to rend on a "6", for example.

The minimum is also 6.

Yes you are both right getting my D6 and +3s mixed up

The bio acid has S3.