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Kanluwen wrote:So, your stance Shuma is that there would be a large amount of miniature wargaming companies despite the fact that GW during its early days was the prime supplier of models for other companies?

Yeah, the rules were there. But the actual miniatures weren't.

But you're right, I'm sure there would have been SOMETHING along the way but it would have taken quite awhile or stuck with the same vein as historical wargaming was at the time.

Sorry but that's not true.

There have been plenty of historical ranges around since the 60s, and they increased in the 70s and 80s.

SF and Fantasy started to take off in the early 70s. Historical players anticipated fantasy and RPG gaming by making campaigns and scenarios using a fantasy idea and modified historical rules.

Minifigs produced Lord Of The Rings figures and SF figures in early-mid 70s. I bought some of them.

Then came D&D and Traveller and the explosion of non-historical RP gaming. A number of companies started up, one of them was Citadel, who made a major contribution to raising standards of sculpting and pricing.

TBH, Games Workshop got its start from selling D&D and other games published by other companies.

There's no doubt that Citadel and GW were good for the industry, but the industry would have gone on and advanced without them.

IMO the miniatures is very good and for the quality you get the price seems fair.

But most of the other stuff like paint and brushes is overprized and there is alot of stuff with better quality.

GW-- 10 multi-part Cadian infantry -- £11.75 = £117.5p each
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1300109&prodId=prod2070014

Perry Brothers-- 40 multi-part British infantry -- £15 = 27p each.
http://www.perry-miniatures.com/index2.html

Both sets are 28mm scale. The main difference is that the Perry figures have been meticulously researched for historical accuracy, while the Cadians have got double-headed eagles stuck on their helmets and guns because they are official 40K figures.

And they are 4.6 times more expensive.

To be fair, the Perry brothers can afford to charge less.

They've got their name going for them, along with the fact that practically EVERYONE in the wargaming field has heard of or seen the quality of their work firsthand.

Sure, if GW never existed, I wouldn't be playing 40k (or necromunda) - but - I was playing WW2/modern in HO scale back then AND SF in 25mm.

40k wasn't the only SF miniatures game. Several others have come and gone since the 80s. Who knows what heights they may have reached without the over-competitiveness of GW pushing all others aside?

I've never used GW for my modelling supplies. Without them, we would have a generation of people who would know you can get the identical stuff cheaper in other places.

I don't 'Hate' GW (hate is reserved for people I really dislike and GW is not a 'person' but a faceless evil empire like sony or micro$haft).

Kanluwen wrote:To be fair, the Perry brothers can afford to charge less.

They've got their name going for them, along with the fact that practically EVERYONE in the wargaming field has heard of or seen the quality of their work firsthand.

Im assuming GW is less famous compared to Perry brothers ? thus justifying the 4.6x price increase?

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:To be fair, the Perry brothers can afford to charge less.

They've got their name going for them, along with the fact that practically EVERYONE in the wargaming field has heard of or seen the quality of their work firsthand.

Im assuming GW is less famous compared to Perry brothers ? thus justifying the 4.6x price increase?

How many companies do you know selling multi-part model kits intended for historical game systems?

How many of those companies have been sculpting for almost 3 decades?

How many of those companies are also given free press from Peter Jackson, or STILL getting paid to sculpt for a large corporate entity and have the time to produce their own lines on the side?

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:To be fair, the Perry brothers can afford to charge less.

They've got their name going for them, along with the fact that practically EVERYONE in the wargaming field has heard of or seen the quality of their work firsthand.

Im assuming GW is less famous compared to Perry brothers ? thus justifying the 4.6x price increase?

Hang on a moment Luna. Why on earth do you collect warhammer when you seem to think they are way to expensive?



I've found warhammer to be a brilliant part of my life - painting is great fun and the amount of great people (even girls) I meet through it is fantastic... I love it for the social side more than anything.

I find it silly the way so many people bitch about it when they are themselves buying the stuff lol! If they're paying the price, then they must think it worth it. GW will charge the amount which will give them the most profit, since people will pay the high prices I don't complain.

I'm aware of four companies making multi-part plastic historicals

Perry Brothers
Wargames Factory
Warlord Games
Valiant Miniatures (1/72)

There are several ranges of plastic historicals in 1/72, such as ESCI and Zvezda. They are usually one-piece figures.

There's no doubt GW blazed the trail for 28mm multi-part figures. Before they started up it was all one-piece soft plastic.

Kanluwen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:To be fair, the Perry brothers can afford to charge less.

They've got their name going for them, along with the fact that practically EVERYONE in the wargaming field has heard of or seen the quality of their work firsthand.

Im assuming GW is less famous compared to Perry brothers ? thus justifying the 4.6x price increase?

How many companies do you know selling multi-part model kits intended for historical game systems?

How many of those companies have been sculpting for almost 3 decades?

How many of those companies are also given free press from Peter Jackson, or STILL getting paid to sculpt for a large corporate entity and have the time to produce their own lines on the side?

Er, GW has also been sculpting for 30 years, has a lot of press from Peter Jackson for the LOTR range, and many of it's kits can be used to represent historical armies, with a little converting.

They still cost 4 times the price.

Excellent attempt though, you're the most entertaining troll I've seen in this forum for a while. Carry on the flamebaiting good sir, I'll just break out the popcorn.

Hey Fraz, you must have something with a large .cal, can't you dig it out and remove the troll from under the bridge?

Kilkrazy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:So, your stance Shuma is that there would be a large amount of miniature wargaming companies despite the fact that GW during its early days was the prime supplier of models for other companies?

Yeah, the rules were there. But the actual miniatures weren't.

But you're right, I'm sure there would have been SOMETHING along the way but it would have taken quite awhile or stuck with the same vein as historical wargaming was at the time.

Sorry but that's not true.

There have been plenty of historical ranges around since the 60s, and they increased in the 70s and 80s.

SF and Fantasy started to take off in the early 70s. Historical players anticipated fantasy and RPG gaming by making campaigns and scenarios using a fantasy idea and modified historical rules.

Minifigs produced Lord Of The Rings figures and SF figures in early-mid 70s. I bought some of them.

Then came D&D and Traveller and the explosion of non-historical RP gaming. A number of companies started up, one of them was Citadel, who made a major contribution to raising standards of sculpting and pricing.

TBH, Games Workshop got its start from selling D&D and other games published by other companies.

There's no doubt that Citadel and GW were good for the industry, but the industry would have gone on and advanced without them.

I'm not sure. While most of us are aware that GW didn't say "let there be light" and shat out the miniatures hobby, would the hobby be anything like it is without the influence of GW? Sure, without question there would be historicals, and I don't doubt that there are people out there who would think it a good thing if there wasn't the influence of GW games. As it is though, the business model that GW employs is the reason that you can walk into pretty much any game store in the world and pull out your miniatures and play a game of Warhammer.

Someone who was around and playing games at the time may know more than I, but it seems to me that miniatures war games would not have any large scale following in the United States, and the use of miniatures in gaming on any large scale would be for RPGs. I know this might rub some HMGS people the wrong way, but if you're honest and look at historicals compared to Warhammer, I think there is no question on which one introduces more people to the hobby. Most people at my FLGS probably wouldn't know exactly what historical miniatures war games were, except perhaps flames of war.

ShumaGorath wrote:

I'm sorry, what?

I like the new Keeper and the new Ghaz. The rest of the stuff (old or new) is kinda meh.

I'll try to steer clear of the flaming while still adding my thoughts...


I agree that GW tends to overprice a lot of their non-model items. My biggest gripe is the brushes. When I first started getting back into it, I bought a GW brush that didn't last. Yes, I took care of it by washing it thoroughly but still didn't last as long as a brush I bought from Walmart. GW Brust $3.49. Walmart Brush $1.25.

ALTHOUGH...I will say that I like GW's clippers because they do an excellent job of removing the bit from the sprue with no exacto knife shaving needed. The pin drill was cheaper than anyone I found. Paints seem to be getting more expensive, but I've only ever used GW.

Ketara wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:To be fair, the Perry brothers can afford to charge less.

They've got their name going for them, along with the fact that practically EVERYONE in the wargaming field has heard of or seen the quality of their work firsthand.

Im assuming GW is less famous compared to Perry brothers ? thus justifying the 4.6x price increase?

How many companies do you know selling multi-part model kits intended for historical game systems?

How many of those companies have been sculpting for almost 3 decades?

How many of those companies are also given free press from Peter Jackson, or STILL getting paid to sculpt for a large corporate entity and have the time to produce their own lines on the side?

Er, GW has also been sculpting for 30 years, has a lot of press from Peter Jackson for the LOTR range, and many of it's kits can be used to represent historical armies, with a little converting.

They still cost 4 times the price.

Excellent attempt though, you're the most entertaining troll I've seen in this forum for a while. Carry on the flamebaiting good sir, I'll just break out the popcorn.

Thank you Ketara , im glad there are some that can spot these kind of things.

Blake wrote:
Hang on a moment Luna. Why on earth do you collect warhammer when you seem to think they are way to expensive?



I've found warhammer to be a brilliant part of my life - painting is great fun and the amount of great people (even girls) I meet through it is fantastic... I love it for the social side more than anything.

I find it silly the way so many people bitch about it when they are themselves buying the stuff lol! If they're paying the price, then they must think it worth it. GW will charge the amount which will give them the most profit, since people will pay the high prices I don't complain.

Ah , thats a very very good question.
Here is my *thoughts on Warhammer and their price.
- Are they expensive as in the amount of plastic vs the price? Yes
- Are they expensive as in hobby + gaming aspect value vs price? Yes
In other words , there should be no reason for me to have warhammer products , even why so many?

One simple answer really , you guys *other warhammer players make it worthwhile for me.
Yes its expensive as i mentioned above , the 2 factor are as such:
can i afford it ? + are there always customers? Yes to both.

In other words it doesnt matter what i think its expensive , aslong as i can receive commission + have people to sell my army to at the
ever increasing price.
Its like satisfying a shopaholic addiction , and able to get rid of them after im bored of them.

Ketara wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:To be fair, the Perry brothers can afford to charge less.

They've got their name going for them, along with the fact that practically EVERYONE in the wargaming field has heard of or seen the quality of their work firsthand.

Im assuming GW is less famous compared to Perry brothers ? thus justifying the 4.6x price increase?

How many companies do you know selling multi-part model kits intended for historical game systems?

How many of those companies have been sculpting for almost 3 decades?

How many of those companies are also given free press from Peter Jackson, or STILL getting paid to sculpt for a large corporate entity and have the time to produce their own lines on the side?

Er, GW has also been sculpting for 30 years, has a lot of press from Peter Jackson for the LOTR range, and many of it's kits can be used to represent historical armies, with a little converting.

They still cost 4 times the price.

Excellent attempt though, you're the most entertaining troll I've seen in this forum for a while. Carry on the flamebaiting good sir, I'll just break out the popcorn.

Hey there sweetheart. Let me fill you in on something completely crazy...

"GW" hasn't been sculpting for 30 years. They employ sculptors, who have been, and they've had sculptors leave over their existence. Their sculptors are also always improving or changing up their styles.

The point I'm making here:
You don't see every GW sculptor who's worked on the LoTR line opening up their own shop and selling things they want to, now do you?

You also don't see GW models being praised by a guy whose stock in trade is special effects praising the historical and anatomical accuracy, eh?

So umm... lemme confirm something without getting flamed mister Kanluwen.

What you have been saying is basically:

The Perry Brothers are better known + have better sculpting background than GW ?

In regards to the post that your friend quoted?

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying, given that the Perry Brothers have been a well-known part of Games Workshop's sculpting line-up since, as far as I know, the beginning.

Add in the exposure they got from Peter Jackson's showing off of the 54mm Anzacs they've worked on for him(if a guy who has...y'know, an entire STUDIO that can make movie grade models would prefer some specific sculptors to do his own personal collection, how is that NOT a big plus for them?) and the fact that they run their OWN company that is their own personal outlet for sculpting historical models and you get a small-time business with a very large market share.

Perry Brothers used to work for Citadel, so did the guys at Wargames Foundry, and Mark Copplestone, and probably others I don't know about.

They have a very high profile among historical/non-GW gamers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is a quite a 'knowledge gap' (?) between old lags like me, who started wargaming before GW was invented, and younger players whose main experience has been not only in the GW era but also nearly exclusively an experience of GW.

GW have their own shops where you can buy everything needed to make and play GW games. You can play games there. GW run their own shows and competitions. They present themselves as "The Hobby" and that's not really true.

The rest of the wargaming hobby is non-exclusive, by and large. If you go to a big show like Salute there will be all kinds of games, including GW. In fact, you'll see more non-core GW games, like Warmaster and Trafalgar, at Salute that you would at a GW show.

GW & Citidel were companies of their time. GW, or Games Design Workshop as it was then, was a reseller of other peoples games and made some of it's own. It then moved on to making it's own systems, Rogue Trooper, Judge Dredd, Paranoia, Warhammer RPG and even Traveller. At some point in the 80's they joined up with Citidel to become Games Workshop.

Now if this had not happened I don't think anybody can predict what would of happened to gaming. It could of plodded along as is, died a death or someone else may of come up with a product that really took off.

If the Internet had been around then, GW may not been able to build such a vast empire. It's strength was that you could get all you stuff in one place and get a game, this is changing. Hard core gamers can find & purchase rules & models from the comfort of their own home, no need to purchase 3 gaming magazines every month to find suppliers.

OT: "Sweetheart" appears to being used in a patronising tone towards Luna, so does that mean I can start refering to US posters that I'm having a disagreement with as "Colonials"? Seems only fair.

Modquisiton on:
Lets remember Dakka Rule #1 and get this thread back on track...now. Quit the personal attacks.

This seems like more of a discussions forum kind of thing, but I was quite entertained by the loopiness of the majority of this thread.

Here is a beagle though... CATCH!

I respect our new hovering beagle overlords, and promise to scratch behind their ears (My God the Ears!) whenever desired.

Kilkrazy wrote:Perry Brothers used to work for Citadel, so did the guys at Wargames Foundry, and Mark Copplestone, and probably others I don't know about.

There's also Chris Fitzpatrick from Crocidile games (he did the DE in the 90's). Andy Chambers (edited due to reds8n knowing stuff and me guessing vaguely ) did Starship Troopers for Mongoose . If nothing else GW is an excellent springboard for creating/training/refining brilliant sculptors and painters. Don't really know why people get so angry...If you don't like the cost/sculpts/games go somewhere else and buy stuff you like. No-one is making you do anything and there are lots of brilliant games and mini's out there.

The simple fact is GW is cleverly stylised so you instantly recognise their figures, they are available nearly everywhere including paints and modelling supplies etc (waiting for GW Moon to open ) and have a large library of backstories and fluff to help you get into the game. Its easy to find opponents too. Parts of their range may be overpriced compared to similar competitors products but the GW products are all available in one place and make purchases for parents simple and straight forward even on a sunday (My key issue with GW was the switch in target audience to a younger players (in the 90's) as they have pester power and don't have to pay bills - I don't overly blame them however as GW is a business and has to make decisions that bring them the best return). If people didn't buy the products at the prices they set then GW would have to lower them/stop producing models, but this isn't the case.

I've been playing for twenty odd years and GW has enraged and infuriated me on a number of occasions (more often than not by dropping models or ranges I either collected or was looking forwards to purchasing) but I still buy some of their products (usually to convert for RT) and play some of their games (although I play other things just as much or still play older GW games in an attempt to regain my youth ).

Wrexasaur: are you sure that's a beagle and not a sneak preview of the new plastic Tyranid harridan kit (I've just made up).

According to the Perry Brothers' website they still work for GW as "their day job".

I imagine some of the new models must come from them, as well as their own historical stuff sold through their site.

Dances with Squats wrote:There's also Chris Fitzpatrick from Crocidile games (he did the DE in the 90's). Andy Hall did Starship Troopers for Mongoose.

Chambers not Hall I think you mean.


Andy Hoare, in his new freelance role, is doing/has done soem stuff for FFG and their DH/RT lines too.


EDIT : he' also set up his own mini company outcast wargames

Ok, getting back to the question, why so much hate?

Here is my take on the GW hate thing.
They are good at what they do, and thats creating and supporting there own set of games, and surviving where others fail and disapear (ie ICE, steel armadillo, etc.) are they too expensive? maybe, (some of there products absolutely.)
But they are a well known name and sucsessfull, and that i think is the heart of it, in this day and age, sucsess breeds contempt and hatered.

If you elaborate on "contempt and hatred", and move closer to the customer confidence spectrum, I think you may be on to something.

The fact that GW meets it's bottom line year after year, does not make it a supreme model of success, in fact it may speak wonders about their customers, and the ways that they can manipulate them. In some situations, you will find that models become a status symbol... until Wrex drives up with a 20 foot wraithlord, you know that kind of thing.

Not to say that GW does not have some good to go with the bad (what company doesn't), I just feel that going off into rhetoric about how much GW gets it's feelings hurt, and how dastardly their customers can be; is not so much of a realistic concept, as it is a misunderstanding of what many customers expect from a company.

I pick and choose what I buy, and I try to buy pretty much everything second hand, because I support the hobby, not GW, and that does not automatically mean that spending your money at a FLGS is the way to save the hobby. Surely if you cannot see how much this hobby has changed, specifically in relation to the effect that GW's success, and ultimately it's influence in the hobby, you have simply not done enough research.

Hawkins wrote:But they are a well known name and sucsessfull, and that i think is the heart of it, in this day and age, sucsess breeds contempt and hatered.

You're suggesting tall poppy syndrome where none exists. I do not resent the fluff being everywhere or the product being widespread or the dominance of the system over others (although variety is good for the hobby).

It is Games Workshops behaviour, that is what incites many of us to anger.
It is the way in which GW behaves like the mighty mega-corp it would love to be (and is not), they think they are Weyland/Yutani.
It is the arrogance and contempt the company now treats it's own customers with, openly stating in their shareholders reports a total disregard or even basic respect for the customer.
It is the way in which they can charge 4 times the price for a model due to it's lack of application in the armies they designed for it.
It is the elevation of price for as long as they can continue to gain profit despite alienating their wider customer base in a kind of 'if you loved me you'd swallow' selfishness, even during a time of massive economic recession.
It is their inability to be honest, in a climate and time where other companies have discovered the benefits of being more open and approachable, talking to a GW staff member is like talking to a religious fanatic.
It is their scrapping of their own forums, withdrawing yet further into an ivory tower of 'We're great! Yeah! And if your saying thinks about us we don't like, we won't be listening, la la la!!1!'
It is their consistency in writing very poor rules for their primary game systems then smoothing over it with a glib 'play how you like it, it's just guidelines' just as long as you keep buying what they are interested in, miniatures and the sale of them.
It is their manufacture of scenery and then insisting you shouldn't make your own things but buy moar of the product!!
It is their blind and constant insistance that everyone should buy space marines and producing a massive range for space marines and creating many variant armies for space marines, even as they scrapped the variant armies for everyone else...Then they cry out 'look, everyone buys marines, lets make moar!!1!'.
It is their inability to maintain a decent schedule with codices and support for other armies and leaving their 'abortioned' armies out in the dust, despite people paying hundreds or thousands of pounds on them.
It is their inability to support previous (now specialist) games, creating them, selling them and then resenting having to support them.
It is their blind nerve selling a 'hobby support magazine' with no fething content, for the price of a novel when in truth it is a buying catalogue, like the ones for plants you get with the TV guide, several pages of which are taken up by their designer/guru in chief instructing you on how great everything is and that you need to buy moar!!1!.
It is the bloated arrogance of the last financial statement openly stating they would bring the price of the plastics up to match the price of the metals (the metals were hiked due to a 'tin crisis' several years ago and never brought back in line) so the plastics will eventually match the 'emergency' prices of the metals.

It is their greed and contempt for us that drives us to hate them. It is the price of goldswords. It is the loss of ordering bitz.

It is the death of games workshop 'the hobby company' and the rise of games workshop 'the product at all costs'.

MGS lays out the dakka commandments ...

I was going to give you a cookie, but this looked really good too... kinda took a bite out of it... sorry .