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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Agreed, they have reasons. But they are insane reasons so I take no account of them.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God






Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways

Insanity is a point of view, not an absolute.

It used to be common sense that you sacrificed someone to ensure that the sun rose in the morning...

And I think that any defence lawyer who is not actually dead will probably be able to get this thrown out on the grounds that there is no jury they can possibly get in who will not be in some way biased, there is no court or judge who would rule without bias, and that the defendant has been tortured (and possibly into confessing). Not to mention that the leader of the country itself has apparently expressed the desire to see defendent hung (or at least sent down).

I myself am not a lawyer, or trained in law (much less US law), but I am pretty sure that the above points would be against the written law somewhere and unless the American court system ignores most of it's own integral rules on fair trials, it will be impossible to put this man on trial.

Edit: Possibly the only way they could get them on trial is to hold an international trial, to try and limit the bias that would be part of the American system based on what this man is accused of doing, as well as remove him as far as possible from anyones ability to "rig" the trial in any way shape or form.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/11/19 15:19:08


   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

SilverMK2 wrote:Insanity is a point of view, not an absolute.

It used to be common sense that you sacrificed someone to ensure that the sun rose in the morning...

And I think that any defence lawyer who is not actually dead will probably be able to get this thrown out on the grounds that there is no jury they can possibly get in who will not be in some way biased, there is no court or judge who would rule without bias, and that the defendant has been tortured (and possibly into confessing). Not to mention that the leader of the country itself has apparently expressed the desire to see defendent hung (or at least sent down).

I myself am not a lawyer, or trained in law (much less US law), but I am pretty sure that the above points would be against the written law somewhere and unless the American court system ignores most of it's own integral rules on fair trials, it will be impossible to put this man on trial.

Not Hardly.
*All juries are biased. Its a misnomer that the legal system looks for an unbiased jury.
*They'll note evidence prior to capture. No fruit of the old poisoned tree. But there is a concerna wackjob NY judge will get in there and be wackjob. there's a bigger concern that, just like last time, the names of secret will be given to the defendant attorney and then passed to Al Qaeda.
*Presidenent and prosecutors can express the desire to see the defenadant drawn, quartered, cooked, and used for dog food. That;s not relevant to the proceedings. They SHOULD state their belief he's guilty and desire for capital punishment, else they would be stating they are effectively performing malicious prosecution.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God






Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways

I will defer to your knowledge on the subject, as I said, I know very little about the US justice system.

Just throwing my concerns out there.

   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Frazzled wrote:
US military in a war. Running planes into buildings to kill civilians for no reason is a crime against humanity. Your inability to separate the two is breathtaking.


The 9/11 attackers had reasons. You don't execute lengthy plans for a terrorist attack without them. You might not like their reasons, or consider them legitimate, but they are there.

In terms of comparability: broadly the military and Al-Qaeda are groups of people engaged in violence against a perceived enemy. The difference lies in tactical methodology, and definition of the enemy. We hate terrorists, they hate Americans, both are broad categories with roughly equivalent legitimacy.

And before you go off on a tirade about the difference between violence, and a way of life, let me remind you of your favorite quote: "Your freedom ends at my nose." If our way of life has a noticeable impact on theirs, and it absolutely does, then there is a sense in which both considerations are broadly comparable.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Frazzled wrote:Agreed, they have reasons. But they are insane reasons so I take no account of them.


Is it so much more honorable to kill people "Because you were ordered too" than it is "Because you believe they deserve to die"? I would seriously call into question the validity of an argument that unfavorably compares the motivations between a nationalistic military and a guerilla terrorist force. When you make the act of killing a job for pay it's not much better (Before you say something about the good intentions of our troops and their mission I would like you to inform me why exactly we went to Iraq again?).

Don't dismiss the motivations of your enemy. Otherwise you are totally unable to deal with them at the basic level. Think with reason not with hamstrung near decade old emotion.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Hmm, ship him up here to northern Mn. We'd deal with him. All we'd ask for is a years supply of steaks and beer and a few cases of ammo.

They'd never find his body and it could be done nice and quiet like.

--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.

“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

ShumaGorath wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Agreed, they have reasons. But they are insane reasons so I take no account of them.


Is it so much more honorable to kill people "Because you were ordered too" than it is "Because you believe they deserve to die"? I would seriously call into question the validity of an argument that unfavorably compares the motivations between a nationalistic military and a guerilla terrorist force. When you make the act of killing a job for pay it's not much better (Before you say something about the good intentions of our troops and their mission I would like you to inform me why exactly we went to Iraq again?).

Don't dismiss the motivations of your enemy. Otherwise you are totally unable to deal with them at the basic level. Think with reason not with hamstrung near decade old emotion.

Oh I don't dismiss them. They are just in the realm of the insane (the troopers, the actual guys in charge have a much more earthly agenda).

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah because killing terrorists is as awful as said terrorist ramming a plane into a building and forcing people to jump to their death to avoid a fiery inferno.

Wtf do you people smoke? Banana peels laced with anaconda gak or something?

--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.

“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”


 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Frazzled wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Agreed, they have reasons. But they are insane reasons so I take no account of them.


Is it so much more honorable to kill people "Because you were ordered too" than it is "Because you believe they deserve to die"? I would seriously call into question the validity of an argument that unfavorably compares the motivations between a nationalistic military and a guerilla terrorist force. When you make the act of killing a job for pay it's not much better (Before you say something about the good intentions of our troops and their mission I would like you to inform me why exactly we went to Iraq again?).

Don't dismiss the motivations of your enemy. Otherwise you are totally unable to deal with them at the basic level. Think with reason not with hamstrung near decade old emotion.

Oh I don't dismiss them. They are just in the realm of the insane (the troopers, the actual guys in charge have a much more earthly agenda).


They're hardly in the realm of the insane. They're just foreign to you. Religious fanaticism and extreme economic and social desperation is something you did not grow up around. That segment of the world has very, very, real problems. It is led by some very evil people (evil in this instance is a very western opinion, but I'll let it stand, screw the saudis). Many of which we both supported and put into power. Simple logic dictates that the breaking point for militant action is right around that of social unrest and economic collapse. Thats where they have been for decades, little formal education, repeatedly destroyed infrastructure, large western business interests, and historic religious tensions will give you these motives near every time such things come together. These are the acts of the desperate and the hateful, but no motive founded in such ways are insane. An insane motive requires an insane mind, to say that they are simply gathering the insane into a big group is a stretch. When you treat them as such you only empower their vision and gives them strength.

Yeah because killing terrorists is as awful as said terrorist ramming a plane into a building and forcing people to jump to their death to avoid a fiery inferno.

Wtf do you people smoke? Banana peels laced with anaconda gak or something?


I'm going to have to ask you to read the threads you post in from now on. Kay?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/11/19 20:47:02


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in gb
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




York/London(for weekends) oh for the glory of the british rail industry

Frazzled wrote:
Inform the populace he will be dropped off in Time Square.
Place a barrel of hot tar on one corner, a bag of feathers in another, and a rope on a third.
New Yorkers will know what to do.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cheese Elemental wrote:Making him suffer won't bring back the 11/9 victims.

America has done pretty horrendous things too.

(Self edited by Frazzled to avoid banning himself)
1. You just compared the US military to a terrorist killing thousands of people. Your ability to judge reality from unreality is now seriously in question.
2. You're a foreigner. This happened here. You really should be quiet now. See someone die before you open the hole in your face. See the uncensored video of people jumping because they'd rather die that way then burn to death. Have you no shame?


welcome to the U.S.A 1900 style, brutallity doesn't make you look civilised no matter what the reason, excecuting someone who who beleives they will go to a wonderful heaven for what the have done isn't a punishment, its a prize. life imprisionment in solitary confinment is a far more terrifing and real punishment.

in responce to your points:
1. the government of the U.S.A. (note, not the U.S. military) has done many wrong, immoral and questionable actions inside and outside its borders since it formed as a country. if your idea of justice is allowed everyone in the world will think even less of America and you will just fuel the fires of hate, you can't say you are bringing democracy to the middle east when you don't have it at home
2. nearly ever european and colonial country has suffered from terrorism, i was to young to remember the IRA but i do remember the 7th of july 2005, the bombing of london public transport, i live in london. EVERYONE in Britain, Europe, and the 'Western World'
has seen the footage, we watched the news as it happened, just because he doesn't live in America doesn't mean he hasn't seen it, oh seen death for that matter.

Relictors: 1500pts


its safe to say that relictors are the greatest army a man , nay human can own.

I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf. - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show

Avatar 720 wrote:Eau de Ulthwé - The new fragrance; by Eldrad.


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Manchester UK

You're a foreigner. This happened here. You really should be quiet now. See someone die before you open the hole in your face. See the uncensored video of people jumping because they'd rather die that way then burn to death. Have you no shame?


Brits also died in the WTC, along with people of different nationalities.
I'll also echo what bluntman said: We have had terrorist attacks for years here. I AM old enough to remember Northern Ireland with the threat of IRA violence - one of my earliest memories is being walked to the shops near our house, whilst a British Serviceman in full battledress followed us.

Hey americans, read this article please:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1563119.stm

Terrorism is a complex issue - reductionist points of view like 'they're all insane', 'they had no reason to attack us' - are unhelpful.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/11/20 01:34:22


 Cheesecat wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Okay, so the male version of "Cougar" is now officially "Albatross".
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Fateweaver wrote:
Wtf do you people smoke? Banana peels laced with anaconda gak or something?

No thats completely different...er...look over there!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Albatross wrote:
You're a foreigner. This happened here. You really should be quiet now. See someone die before you open the hole in your face. See the uncensored video of people jumping because they'd rather die that way then burn to death. Have you no shame?


Brits alo died in the WTC, along with people of different nationalities.
I'll also echo what bluntman said: We have had terrorist attacks for years here. I AM old enough to remember Northern Ireland with the threat of IRA violence - one of my earliest memories is being walked to the shops near our house, whilst a British Serviceman in full battledress followed us.

So what? Its our business. Butt the feth out.
I don't tell the English how to handle the IRA.
I don't tell the Australians how to handle the aborigines.
So I restate. This is our affair. Butt the feth out.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/11/19 21:11:03


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

So what? Its our business. Butt the feth out.


Screw you, I live in this country too, stop acting like a god damn child and pretending like you have some sort of special angst about 9/11 because you knew everyone that died there. You didn't. You know how many people have died in Iraq since we invaded? Over one million. You think your tiny little World Trade Center stubbed toe is important? You have no idea what it's like to take losses, just like the rest of the giant crybaby superpower that is America. Shape up. Your own countrymen don't even sympathize with you any more, be an adult.

So I restate. This is our affair. Butt the feth out.


Than take it up with me. 9/11 was a sham, it was a bad deed done by some bad people 8 years ago, but it was nothing. 2000 dead. Who cares. We lose more than that annually to the flu, car accidents, cancer, diabetes, heart disease, drugs, and quite a few other things that we put a thousandth the time and money for.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/11/19 21:23:03


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

ShumaGorath wrote:
So what? Its our business. Butt the feth out.


Screw you, I live in this country too, stop acting like a god damn child and pretending like you have some sort of special angst about 9/11 because you knew everyone that died there. You didn't. You know how many people have died in Iraq since we invaded? Over one million. You think your tiny little World Trade Center stubbed toe is important? You have no idea what it's like to take losses, just like the rest of the giant crybaby superpower that is America. Shape up. Your own countrymen don't even sympathize with you any more, be an adult.

So I restate. This is our affair. Butt the feth out.


Than take it up with me. 9/11 was a sham, it was a bad deed done by some bad people 8 years ago, but it was nothing. 2000 dead. Who cares. We lose more than that annually to the flu, car accidents, cancer, diabetes, heart disease, drugs, and quite a few other things that we put a thousandth the time and money for.

No one's talking to you Shuma. Your ability to set up starw man points continues. If you, as you say, read the posts you'll see this was directed at those not of this country.
And if you think that 2000 dead is "nothing" (it was more than that FYI) then you don't have a clue. Fateweaver's phrase is accurate. What godawful banana peel hemp are you smoking?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/11/19 21:31:26


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Plastictrees



UK

::Sigh::

We're all human being, the loss of human life is just as sickening for the rest of the world as it was for America. Though I understand why America has alot more to be angry and sad about.

Comments like this:

Frazzled wrote:So what? Its our business. Butt the feth out.


This is silly and is trolling.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:Grab your club, hit her over the head, and drag her back to your cave. The classics are classic for a reason.
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Lord-Loss wrote:::Sigh::

We're all human being, the loss of human life is just as sickening for the rest of the world as it was for America. Though I understand why America has alot more to be angry and sad about.

Comments like this:

Frazzled wrote:So what? Its our business. Butt the feth out.


This is silly and is trolling.

No its reality. Butt out.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Plastictrees



UK

No.

You have no right to demand people "butt out"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/11/19 21:38:14


WARBOSS TZOO wrote:Grab your club, hit her over the head, and drag her back to your cave. The classics are classic for a reason.
 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

No one's talking to you Shuma. Your ability to set up starw man points continues.


It wasn't a strawman, it was directed entirely at you and your mistaken impression that America somehow owns this pain and angst. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, either way its totally irrelevant and using it like you seem to want to do, as a catalyst for immoral action and a carte blanche for militaristic and reactionary thinking is both wrong and self destructive. Cope with it, and get over it. Otherwise you're just acting like a spoiled brat, but on a wholly global stage.

If you, as you say, read the posts you'll see this was directed at those not of this country.
And if you think that 2000 dead is "nothing" (it was more than that FYI) then you don't have a clue. Fateweaver's phrase is accurate. What godawful banana peel hemp are you smoking?


You said we. You kept saying we. Who is we? America? I'm an american, and I sure as hell don't want to be lumped in as acting the way you do about it. Your comment was directed at me every bit as much as it was them.

And if you think that 2000 dead is "nothing" (it was more than that FYI) then you don't have a clue.


2995 including the hijackers. Because of it we've lost twice that in Iraq and afghanistan and we're directly responsible for the deaths of millions. I don't have a clue? Why don't you learn to count.

ateweaver's phrase is accurate. What godawful banana peel hemp are you smoking?


Nothing. I use impartial logic. Why don't you two take off the diapers, put on some big boy pants, and learn to act your damn ages. Take off your little 9/11 victim pins, it doesn't work for the terrorists when they cry about their motives and it doesn't work for you. It's illogical, reactionary, emotional, and stupid. It's also old. It's not fresh any more. The wound would of closed a long time ago if you would stop picking at it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/11/19 21:40:54


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch






Dallas, TX

ShumaGorath wrote:Screw you, I live in this country too, stop acting like a god damn child and pretending like you have some sort of special angst about 9/11 because you knew everyone that died there. You didn't. You know how many people have died in Iraq since we invaded? Over one million. You think your tiny little World Trade Center stubbed toe is important? You have no idea what it's like to take losses, just like the rest of the giant crybaby superpower that is America. Shape up. Your own countrymen don't even sympathize with you any more, be an adult.
He wasn't referring to you Shuma, so calm down. And no, your statistics are dead wrong. According to documented evidence, at most 104,000 have died. While that is still quite a few deaths, that is nowhere near the outrageous claims you made. And besides, how many have been killed by terrorists vs American armed forces? I guarantee the ratio is way lopsided, and not in favor of the terrorists.

ShumaGorath wrote:Than take it up with me. 9/11 was a sham, it was a bad deed done by some bad people 8 years ago, but it was nothing. 2000 dead. Who cares. We lose more than that annually to the flu, car accidents, cancer, diabetes, heart disease, drugs, and quite a few other things that we put a thousandth the time and money for.
Wow, I don't even know what to say to this. Sometimes you post the most ridiculous, offensive crap....

DR:80+S(GT)G++M++B-I++Pwmhd05#+D+++A+++/sWD-R++T(Ot)DM+
How is it they live in such harmony - the billions of stars - when most men can barely go a minute without declaring war in their minds about someone they know.
- St. Thomas Aquinas
Warhammer 40K:
Alpha Legion - 15,000 pts For the Emperor!
WAAAGH! Skullhooka - 14,000 pts
Biel Tan Strikeforce - 11,000 pts
"The Eldar get no attention because the average male does not like confetti blasters, shimmer shields or sparkle lasers."
-Illeix 
   
Made in gb
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God






Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways

Live and let live guys... though I suppose if national powers would have learnt this lesson we would probably not be having this debate in the first place.

I think that everyone needs to take a walk outside for a few minutes.

   
Made in us
Executing Exarch






Dallas, TX

ShumaGorath wrote:2995 including the hijackers. Because of it we've lost twice that in Iraq and afghanistan and we're directly responsible for the deaths of millions. I don't have a clue? Why don't you learn to count.
And you need to do your own damn research before you make stupid claims like this. Millions have NOT died. Anyone with half a brain knows that....

DR:80+S(GT)G++M++B-I++Pwmhd05#+D+++A+++/sWD-R++T(Ot)DM+
How is it they live in such harmony - the billions of stars - when most men can barely go a minute without declaring war in their minds about someone they know.
- St. Thomas Aquinas
Warhammer 40K:
Alpha Legion - 15,000 pts For the Emperor!
WAAAGH! Skullhooka - 14,000 pts
Biel Tan Strikeforce - 11,000 pts
"The Eldar get no attention because the average male does not like confetti blasters, shimmer shields or sparkle lasers."
-Illeix 
   
Made in gb
Plastictrees



UK

I think that everyone needs to take a walk outside for a few minutes.



Im not taking a walk outside, Lie to Me is on in fifteen minutes

(Great show, I recommend it to all)

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:Grab your club, hit her over the head, and drag her back to your cave. The classics are classic for a reason.
 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





UK

I joined the Royal Marines in November 1999. I was doing a training course at Lympstone commando on September 11th 2001. I rember it very clearly because I was 21, and we were all sat watching it thinking "ok, we bext get packed, cos were off to war" and shortly afterwards, i was on the deck in Afghanistan.


Garret, i happily served in Afghanistan twice, and Iraq twice, i agreed entirely with the invasion of "Ganners".

I didnt think we had anywhere near as strong a case for Iraq, and i started to think "ok.. this might be more about one weird Christian dudes own personal agenda... " but i thought "ah well, were allies, who gives a gak, lets knack the Iraqis too, why not"

But let me say, you cant tell people they "dont have a right to comment" just because they arent American. Thats not the world we live in today. It affects us all. And any right minded civilised person is disgusted by terrorism. Cheese has just as much right to discuss this as you.

And everyone is entitled to their opinion. Thats the freedom of speech we fight to preserve.

My two cents?

I think i should be able to kill them on national Television with a hammer. Id do it for free too. Save the state some money.


We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Thanks Shuma, I do read the threads before I post. I am reading that it's wrong that some of us Americans want to execute the leader of the attack on the WTC, that doing so makes us no better than the terrorist we are wanting to execute.

How the HELL does that make any sense at all, to you, as an American? If an American man or woman flew a plane into an Iraqi office building and killed even just ONE person that person/persons would be executed with NO trial.

I'm not saying he'll get an unbiased trial ANYWHERE in the world so even an international tribunal like some posters propose won't lead to an unbiased trial either. Maybe life in solitary is more torturous for him or maybe he just won't care if he lives or dies.

If you murder someone in the first degree in most states you get executed. Why the hell should a known terrorist who not only killed 1'000's of people and caused billions in collateral damage, not to mention knocking down a building that for probably most people in NY and the rest of the US was considered a monument not deserving of the same outcome?

I'm of the mind if you aren't a legal US citizen you shouldn't get a trial at all if the country you are from doesn't want you extradited back to them. I still say he should be sent to Mn. My friends and I would deal with him and it would cost Obamanation a years supply of beer and steaks for me and my 5 closest buddies and 3 cases of ammo for the 6 of us. Nobody would even have to know it was being done.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/11/19 21:50:52


--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.

“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”


 
   
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I say we give him a sex change, wrap him in pigskin and send him back to his own country....heh, martyr indeed...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/11/19 21:52:39


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He wasn't referring to you Shuma, so calm down. And no, your statistics are dead wrong. According to documented evidence, at most 104,000 have died. While that is still quite a few deaths, that is nowhere near the outrageous claims you made. And besides, how many have been killed by terrorists vs American armed forces? I guarantee the ratio is way lopsided, and not in favor of the terrorists.



--

Opinion Research Business (ORB) poll conducted August 12-19, 2007 estimated 1,033,000 violent deaths due to the Iraq War. The range given was 946,000 to 1,120,000 deaths. A nationally representative sample of approximately 2000 Iraqi adults answered whether any members of their household (living under their roof) were killed due to the Iraq War. 22% of the respondents had lost one or more household members. ORB reported that "48% died from a gunshot wound, 20% from the impact of a car bomb, 9% from aerial bombardment, 6% as a result of an accident and 6% from another blast/ordnance."[14][15][16][17][18]


2006 Excess Mortality Study
Main article: Lancet surveys of Iraq War casualties
The October 2006 Lancet study[20][21] estimated total excess deaths up to July 2006. Total deaths (civilian and non-civilian) include all additional deaths due to increased lawlessness, degraded infrastructure, poorer healthcare, etc.. The survey estimated 654,965 excess deaths related to the war. The 2006 study involved surveys between May 20 and July 10, 2006. More households were surveyed than during the 2004 study, allowing for a 95% confidence interval of 392,979 to 942,636 excess Iraqi deaths. The result was disputed by President Bush based both on the number of deaths and the methodology.[86]
Although the British Government initially tried to dispute the accuracy of the Lancet survey, the UK Ministry of Defence's chief scientific adviser later said the survey's methods were "close to best practice" and the study design was "robust"[87]. An October 12, 2006 San Francisco Chronicle article[88] reported: "Asked at the news conference what he thinks the number is now, Bush said: 'I stand by the figure a lot of innocent people have lost their life.' At a separate Pentagon briefing, Gen. George Casey, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, said that the [Lancet] figure 'seems way, way beyond any number that I have seen. I've not seen a number higher than 50,000. And so I don't give it that much credibility at all


The Associated Press stated that more than 110,600 Iraqis had been killed since the start of the war to April 2009. This number is per the Health Ministry tally of 87,215 covering January 1, 2005 to February 28, 2009 combined with counts of casualties for 2003-2004, and after February 29, 2009 from hospital sources and media reports.[5] For more info see farther down at Associated Press and Health Ministry. More information.


Casualties of the conflict in Iraq since 2003 (beginning with the 2003 invasion of Iraq, and continuing with the ensuing occupation of Iraq coalition presence, as well as the activities of the various armed groups operating in the country) have come in many forms, and the accuracy of the information available on different types of Iraq War casualties varies greatly. In December 2007, the Iraqi government reported that there were 5 million orphans in Iraq - almost half of the country's children.[1][2]


Don't tell me to do my damn research. Not everyone dies in a bomb and the excess mortality study in 2006 is an accurate and telling study of the lives lost because of the conflict, rather than caused directly by coalition or insurgent forces. We've had another three years since then. You think bullets are all that kill people? What about what happens when you destroy a nation infrastructure, denying it clean water, medical aid, a police and fire agency, food, and electricity for coming on seven years? Do you think that Iraq was just a bunch of mud hutts in a desert before we went in?

Wow, I don't even know what to say to this. Sometimes you post the most ridiculous, offensive crap....


No, you just got a stubbed toe and now you pretend like it still has relevance. I don't see a memorial to those that die in car accidents. I don't see a flu memorial. What I do see is two wars, numerous laws intruding on rights and privacy, and a hell of a lot of money spent on nothing. All the while our economy crumbles, we become isolated from the world, and we help recruit thousands of new terrorists.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/11/19 21:58:01


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
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Although, here is an oddity, being a military man im all for shooting the 9/11 lot, but Frazzled, your attitude really stinks sometimes.

I agree with alot of what you say, but you come across as some sort of, crazed right wing nut when you start slagging off "foreigners" for voicing their opinions on a subject that does NOT only involve Americans.

Brits (and many many other nationalities) died there. Brits died in Afghanistan and continue to do so. You might think you have some sort of emotional monopoly on the situation, but you certainly dont.

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
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mattyrm wrote:Although, here is an oddity, being a military man im all for shooting the 9/11 lot, but Frazzled, your attitude really stinks sometimes.

I agree with alot of what you say, but you come across as some sort of, crazed right wing nut when you start slagging off "foreigners" for voicing their opinions on a subject that does NOT only involve Americans.

Brits (and many many other nationalities) died there. Brits died in Afghanistan and continue to do so. You might think you have some sort of emotional monopoly on the situation, but you certainly dont.


Well said.

   
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JEB_Stuart wrote:He wasn't referring to you Shuma, so calm down. And no, your statistics are dead wrong. According to documented evidence, at most 104,000 have died. While that is still quite a few deaths, that is nowhere near the outrageous claims you made. And besides, how many have been killed by terrorists vs American armed forces? I guarantee the ratio is way lopsided, and not in favor of the terrorists.


The distinction between death by terrorist (a poor term at best in this instance) action, and death by the actions of US force is irrelevant in this instance. We started the war, and instigated the conflicts between the various political sects within the country.

Incidentally, while Shuma's numbers were on the high end of the estimates of the Iraq death toll, yours are simply from the opposite extreme. Lancet puts the numbers around 650,000, and the WHO places them near 151,000 (with 95% uncertainty). If we take the average of the various surveys taken, the number come out close to 300,000.

JEB_Stuart wrote:
Wow, I don't even know what to say to this. Sometimes you post the most ridiculous, offensive crap....


Its offensive for any given person to state that the death of 2000 people is irrelevant to their daily life? I mean, based on the number of people that die on a daily basis, even simply accounting for those who go due to human artifice, I'd say that for most people massive amounts of death are frequently dismissed every day. Death itself isn't something people care about, what makes you mad is the way in which certain deaths violate your notions of what it means to be civil, or proper.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
 
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