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Hi all.
If all GW look for as reguard to 'the competition', is multi-million pound multinational minature companies, then they are grossly misguided.

ANY product that is percieved to be better VFM , and diverts money from GW products is competition.

GW PLC is a large lumbering behemoth of a fat and lazy corperation.
A dinosaur in many regaurds.

And while its looking out for another dinosaur that might threaten it,all the new smaller nimbler animals are moving in and taking over the planet!

IF you use a GW store fully then you may belive you are getting value for money.

If you dont use the facilities of a GW store then GW products are very poor value for money.IMO.


TTFN
Lanrak.

Wolfen wrote:What about this comparison: (paints not included)

Mantic
This set contains all the models you need to build an epic Elven force including:

* 5 x metal Hero figures, including a mighty Elven King, his royal Standard Bearer, the Mage-Queen and her pet cat, and the proud Prince Nuadalor
* 2 x units of 20 Spearmen, including command group
* 2 x units of 20 Bowmen, including command group
* 20 x Scouts
* 2 x Bolt Throwers, and crew.

~70 minis

for 129 USD

Unfortunately Mantic does not even come close to comparing to GW in quality. Their miniatures are very inexpensive and it really shows. The only plastics I have seen that are GW quality are from the Perry Brothers, Victrix, and Warlord.

Redbeard wrote:

Wolfen wrote:
This set contains all the models you need to build an epic Elven force including:

* 5 x metal Hero figures, including a mighty Elven King, his royal Standard Bearer, the Mage-Queen and her pet cat, and the proud Prince Nuadalor
* 2 x units of 20 Spearmen, including command group
* 2 x units of 20 Bowmen, including command group
* 20 x Scouts
* 2 x Bolt Throwers, and crew.

~70 minis

5 (metal) + 20 (spearmen) + 20 (spearmen) + 20 (bowmen) + 20 (bowmen) + 20 (scouts) + 2 (bolt throwers) + crew = 107+crew, not 70. Just sayin.

Sheiße .... an I am an engineer...go figure


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Well, I dont have any Mantic figures to check the quality and see the wuality per se of the plastic/miniatures, but for what it can be seen this metal figure champion and spearman seems at the samw level as GW (other style but good qaulity)

Mantic



GW

I'm still relatively new to GW, been playing seriously for about 2 years before dabbling, and primarily played historicals and fantasy and sci fi games that never caught on (Starship Troopers was such a great game, too).

Still, I think it's a little unfair to compare GW to many historical miniature companies.

The major difference in pricing stems from GW wishing to have their figures in stores and shops and, as such, require a larger overhead so the store can make a profit. As much as I love WAB, DBA, Warrior, Blitzkrieg Commander, and many other games the figures I purchased came from online shops that were able to sell their figures at a low cost because they did not have to go through a regular distribution channel. It was impossible for the stores I've gamed at to get these figures because these companies could not make a profit by selling them to a middle man.

All the same, I like playing at stores. I'm not a big fan of GW stores, they're always a bit crowded and the staff has been a little overeager for my tastes, but stores like the Game Parlor in Northern Virginia are great stores to play at.

I purchased some of the Mantic figures. I like the style of the figure but the details are a little flat and muddy. They're not nearly as crisp as GW's plastics. They are cheaper, however, and there is something to be said about comparable value in terms of quality versus cost.

I'll be curious to see if Mantic follows Privateer Press in releasing an inexpensive product and then raising prices a ridiculous amount in a short period of time, or worse releasing new units that outclass older ones and cost twice as much.

At the end of the day, however, I find I get more "fun time" per dollar spent on GW than I did with historicals. GW has a great deal of modeling and conversions which can be a lot of fun, not to mention just researching different kits to put together in different ways to do cool and interesting things. Painting is also a lot more interesting and gives a lot more freedom in terms of style and uniform. I find GW allows for more flexibility in the hobby aspect than historicals. Historicals involved buying a ton of inexpensive figures that looked decent and churning out tons of the same paint job, or in the best case scenario, getting to experiment some on different shields for Dark Ages gaming.

Combine this with there just being more opportunity for getting in games and having a better chance of finding a game with a like minded opponent. Historical players fall into many different camps and they all seem to hate each other and the only thing they can agree upon is their hatred of GW and their specious arguments against GW.

Basically, I'm okay paying GW's prices because I get to spend a great deal of time modeling their figures, painting their figures, getting games in, and exploring their background and talking about it with like minded people. Buying into a constant string of soon-to-be dead games got me very little and historicals can be almost as fickle.

I seriously do not understand why so many people post here about GW as they seem to simply have an irrational hatred for their games and anything related to them. Even still, you can play GW's best game at a tournament level army for not much money if you wanted to but very few people play LotR.

My impression is that GW and historical sales volumes are very different. When you do historicals, don't you by hundreds upon hundreds of minis, roughly an order of magnitude larger than a GW army?

It depends on the game. DBA, for instance, only involves 48 or so 15mm figures. It's a great and fast game to play, though, so when I played I had 14 different armies.

WAB involves a lot more figures than WFB, and is just a superior game in every way, but it really depends on the game.

DBA was invented as a small scale, fast-playing ruleset. An army consists of 12 bases with between 1 and four models per base, plus a camp. One model would be an elephant or artillery piece. Four models would be close order infantry.

Most armies have some optional bases, so the average army size is probably about 48 but you might need as many as 60 figures to cover all the options.

The game can be played with any scale figures though 15mm is probably the most popular, and makes it easy for a player to buy armies in matched pairs. Greeks and Persians, for example.

Other Ancients rules such as WRG 7th, Warrior, Field of Glory and DBM/M usually need 150-300 figures per army.

Any big battle game from Ancients/Mediaevals onwards usually needs that kind of number of figures though it does depend on the scale chosen.

For example, I have a 6mm Russian Napoleonic army which contains about 70 bases of infantry and cavalry. An infantry base has 48 figures and a cavalry base has 18. The army represents up to 10 corps for a total headcount of maybe 250,000 men. Each base is a brigade.

At the other end of the scale, I used to play Mediaeval Skirmish games which only need around 12 figures a side.

There's one value for the money GW provides that is not provided by any other major game company, a free place for people to meet, make new friends, work on their models and play games. Retail is a high overhead business and while some of GW's pricing is outrageous I wouldn't condemn all of it with some blanket statement or an apples to oranges comparison.

Thanks, guys. It has always wierded me out that a WFB "battle" has so few figures on the board for something that pretends to be historical block combat.

I was actually talking about this with a friend the other day.

I like 40k because I can imagine each figure actually representing that one figure. The battles represent either skirmishes or parts of a larger battle. The rules make sense from this perspective.

WFB is a bit trickier as I think the rules only make sense if you look at the game as being an abstraction for much larger engagements. I'd imagine each model to represent 100 soldiers, for instance, as that's the only way I can reconcile a lot of the clunkiness of movement and other oddities. This, of course, doesn't work when you throw in heroes who seem to imbalance the game. Most of my problems there are fixed by WAB anyhow.

I also find classifying games in terms of discrete elements that are able to operate. A unit of Gnoblars, for instance and because I've painted 100 of them in the last month, can be put into one unit. That's just one element that moves about and the models are there to serve as wound markers. WFB armies seem to have few elements these days, I see about 6 or so being the average around here, and that seems like a shockingly few amount of units to operate with.

But those are thoughts for another board. For a fun WFB styled, albeit very different, fantasy battles game I'd recommend Armies of Arcana. It's a lot of fun although I've not played the most recent version.

I also think BrassScorpion hit the nail on the head for something that I danced around a bit earlier. GW prices itself so that it can sustain stores and allow retailers to carry their product. Most historical manufacturers sell direct and don't help retailers stay in business creating a situation where there are fewer places to play if you enjoy club or store play.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Thanks, guys. It has always wierded me out that a WFB "battle" has so few figures on the board for something that pretends to be historical block combat.

In the back of the 6th ed rulebook, they noted that each figure represents ten actual troops. Presumably, heroes have small retinues, or else are incredibly powerful/skilled.

All mass battle rules work that way, the man to figure ratio generally ranges from 20 to 100 depending on the rules and army.

WFB/WHAB armies seem to be a bit smaller than other Ancients game.

I think what makes the key difference is that in WH games each figure fights and dies individually.

Since I play 40K I have to deny the "mewling preteens" label, however I must say it is a simpler and more 'gamey' kind of game than many historical mass battle games.

The SF theme appeals to youngsters too.

Kilkrazy wrote:All mass battle rules work that way, the man to figure ratio generally ranges from 20 to 100 depending on the rules and army.

WFB/WHAB armies seem to be a bit smaller than other Ancients game.

I think what makes the key difference is that in WH games each figure fights and dies individually.

Many historical games use 3-4 model bases standing in for larger groups, the prevailing wisdom appears to be that there's no point in trying to track the fate of each individual warrior. The same is probably the reason why so many historical minis ranges are far cruder and many armies more simply painted than the average WFB army. I suppose more historical gamers find their enjoyment in the tactical, movement and deployment aspects of the game, as opposed to seeing individual figures as artistic challenges in their own right.

The average GW aficionados certainly kick the average historical gamers' collective asses when it comes to painting little plastic/metal men. Much of that achievement is Games Workshop's doing, with 'Eavy Metal painters setting the standard to be emulated for generations upon generations of hobbyists.

Yes, that is absolutely true. Historical games allow the player to deploy more units with more figures in each one.

I actually think the painting standard of 'Eavy Metal is in some way counterproductive. It sets the standard so high that most people can never hope to rival it and they get discouraged.

As a historical player, I've always aimed to paint to a 'good tabletop standard' with the philosophy of getting a large army onto the tabletop, which looks good en masse.

So on the whole, by unit which one is cheaper? Historicals, or GW?

Are we paying for the brand, when we talk about price, or is it the whole, as I said earlier? Is the price of running the stores, the packageing, designe, etc. included when we go down to our FNGS and pick up the new box of whatever or is that another cost entirely?

Look at Wargames Foundry and Perry Brothers.

http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/WG/WG4.asp

http://www.perry-miniatures.com/index2.html

They are considered some of the best and most expensive historical 28mm figures and are staffed by ex-Citadel guys. In fact the Perrys still do work for GW.

Price of Foundry infantry is about £1.35 per figure, cheaper if you bulk buy, which you would for making an army.

Price of Perry figures is 2.50 per cavalry (cavalry are normally costed as 2x infantry.)

Obviously GW figures are about double those prices for the metal figures. GW plastic figures are about the same price, but the historical plastics are much cheaper.

If you want a full scale Ancients/Mediaeval army your units will be between maybe 4 and 48 figures each, and your whole army will be anything between 100 and 500 figures depending on the type of army. An early period army consisting entirely of cheap light infantry will contain more figures due to their low points value.

Obviously you won't have any tanks or battlesuits though you might have some carts or artillery.

Grot 6 wrote:So on the whole, by unit which one is cheaper? Historicals, or GW?

General rule of thumb is , GW = the most expensive in every aspect.

Yes this includes Infinity as i view their metal + qualities to be superior than GW character models which are 50% more expensive anyways,

It's six of one and half a dozen of the other.

I agree that a good or bad paint job can make any figure look better or worse.

If you need to paint 200 figures for an army, almost no-one has the time and talent to do an 'Eavy Metal job. A lot of people quite naturally give up and do nothing.



It doesn't matter how nice the models are if they aren't painted.