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I’ve been noticing of late that battalion boxes are looking a tab sparse of late. The amount saved is shrinking and the number of models is now just plain disappointing.

Until today I simply wrote this off and didn’t give it much thought, then I clapped eyes on this at warlord games.

http://www.warlordgames.co.uk/?p=3421

This is a series starter forces being sold by Warlord games for £50, that’s £10 less than GW battalions. Lets take a look at the contents of the Roman one shall we?

2 metal Roman Officers
30 plastic Imperial Roman Legionaries
20 Plastic Praetorian Guard
20 plastic Imperial Roman Veterans
24 plastic Imperial Roman Auxiliaries
Metal Auxiliary Command (Centurion, Signifer & Cornicen)
8 metal Balearic Slingers
1 metal Imperial Roman Scorpion catapult.

That’s just under 100, yep 100 infantry figures plus metal command, metal skirmishers and a metal war machine for £50. Now these are 28mm so stand next to GW models, they are not ‘heroic’ scale but are still the same size. They are made of the same material as GW plastics and are the quality of sculpturing is just as good if not better.

Lets compare this to the £60 Empire battalion shall we?

20 Empire State Troops
10 Empire Handgunners,
10 Empire Greatswords
8 Empire Knightssquare

That’s half, yep half the number of figures. Even factoring in the fact 8 are cavalry this is appalling value in comparison to the Warlord game equivalent and for £10 more as well.

At my local club WAB is rapidly picking up in popularity thanks to just this sort of thing.

If a comparatively small company can sell 28mm plastics at this price why are GW battalions such appalling value in comparison?

LuciusAR wrote:I’ve been noticing of late that battalion boxes are looking a tab sparse of late. The amount saved is shrinking and the number of models is now just plain disappointing.

Won't get any argument on that one from me.

The Space Marine battleforce has more models in it than the Ork one does. Yep, you get more "elite infantry" bodies than "horde" bodies.

LuciusAR wrote:That’s just under 100, yep 100 infantry figures plus metal command, metal skirmishers and a metal war machine for £50. Now these are 28mm so stand next to GW models, they are not ‘heroic’ scale but are still the same size. They are made of the same material as GW plastics and are the quality of sculpturing is just as good if not better.

If a comparatively small company can sell 28mm plastics at this price why are GW battalions such appalling value in comparison?

Here's where you're wrong...at least in my eyes. Looking around at the models available from Warlord, they are nowhere near the quality of (most) current GW models.

You are saying that this...


...is sculpted as good or better than this?



Now, you may not be a fan of the aesthetics of the GW models, but the sculpting quality is far, far higher than the Warlord stuff.

Not trying to talk smack about Warlord, I think it's a great company and they do put out quality merchandise, but GW has a stranglehold on the "best in the market" title.

Well GW charge whatever they think they can get away with. The "saving" in their army boxes is disappointingly low now though. Used to be that you were saving a reasonable amount, even if the contents were totally ideal the value made it worth it. Not the difference in value is so little you're better off just buying exactly what you want, the bulk buy has little advantage.

When the first Marine army box of the modern style came out for 3rd edition you had 10 marines, 5 terminators, a land speeder and three bikes. At the time that was £10, £15, £15 and £15 respectively. And the box was £40. It went up to £50 later on, but was still a reasonably good buy.

What do you get now? A 10 man tactical squad, a 5 man combat squad, 5 scouts, 5 jump-packers and a Rhino. Which is £20, £12, £12, £16 and £18. For £50...actually not bad although it's not a load of figures in raw terms.

The Ork Battleforce is pathetic. 20 Orks, 3 bikes and a truck, What's that, £12, £12, £18 and what...£20 for the bikes? That box only comes in at a saving with the horrendously expensive bikes. Seems to me that most people would prefer they left the bikes out and gave another 2 or 3 packs of orks because that's what you need in a horde army. Not that GW give much thought to that mind, horde armies have always been expensive to buy because they cost almost as much as elite armies even though they know that collectors will have to buy three times as many miniatures to get the same points cost. Yes, I tried collecting Skaven once too. And that's yet another reason you see so many Space Marine armies, cheapest~points cost ratio.

Well, thank goodness I don't plan on any GW bulk buys.

Blue Orphen wrote:
You are saying that this...


...is sculpted as good or better than this?



Now, you may not be a fan of the aesthetics of the GW models, but the sculpting quality is far, far higher than the Warlord stuff.

Not trying to talk smack about Warlord, I think it's a great company and they do put out quality merchandise, but GW has a stranglehold on the "best in the market" title.

Apples, meet oranges. Oranges, meet apples. In the absence of objective standards of "sculpting quality", which I don't see anyone willing or able to enumerate, comparing those two is essentially meaningless. For example, for me, miniature sculpting quality includes things like miniatures being truescale and holding proportional weapons as well as (when it comes to fictional armies) a faction aesthetic that's consistent across the entire line. Games Workshop is nowhere near the top of the ladder.

Blue Orphen wrote:

Here's where you're wrong...at least in my eyes. Looking around at the models available from Warlord, they are nowhere near the quality of (most) current GW models.

You are saying that this...


...is sculpted as good or better than this?



Now, you may not be a fan of the aesthetics of the GW models, but the sculpting quality is far, far higher than the Warlord stuff.

I don't think you are comparing like with like here. Your comparing some warlord basic command troops (about 1-1.50 each) with a GW character model worth about 7 pounds. The vast inferior paint job on the Warlord models doesn't help either.

A better comparison would be this:



Compared to this:



Suddenly the difference isn't so vast, is it?

Good lord, you're using the current Empire pajamamen?

At least have the decency to put up the Greatswords. Or the WFB5 Empire troops.

Yea the bulk army plastics, while they too have improved over the years, imo are on a level of the Catachans and older kits. Find me a plastic set as awesome as the new Space Hulk ones.

Also, at least here, its much easier to find a GW game than anything else. I could go into various LGS (no official GW stores around here either) and get a GW game going; which also greatly adds to the value of GW stuff if you want to game with your mini's. For historicals and non-GW games its tougher to find a pick up game.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Good lord, you're using the current Empire pajamamen?

At least have the decency to put up the Greatswords. Or the WFB5 Empire troops.

Erm. That's one of the current Empire halbadiers. There is no more recent equivalent I can think of.

But if you insist....



Cost 2.50

VS



Cost 75p Yep you can 3 of the above for evrey Great-Sword.

I wonder if I'll get shouted down for this.

A business' profit is essentially revenue minus cost, yes?

Let's assume the cost of producing the minis is the same for both companies (paying the sculptors, making the molds, packaging...etc.)

GW has the additional cost of running it's retail chain (leasing property, paying retail staff...etc) which is a huge cost considering the amount of stores they operate across the world.

Now, more stores should also equal more volume in sales, which may off set the cost of operating said stores. I personally don't know without doing a thorough analysis of their finances.

I just want to point out it isn't a clear cut "jeez, how can one company charge double for minis?" Different companies, different operating costs, different price points.

I will say I saw the Warlord minis table at Games Day UK (which was run by Paul Sawyer) and their minis looked ace. The fact they had a large area/multiple tables at Games Day, and the fact that the company is run by ex-GW executives (John Stallard amongst them) implies that GW doesn't seem to mind if they flourish in their market.

Hope that helps!

Zoned

It was easier for GW to justify it escalating price when the improvements made went up propotionally and the drastic difference between GW's and other companies' minitatures was there. As other companies have closed the gap and GW's rate of improvement has trailed off the price difference isn't easy to justify.

Looking at the above two miniatures I'd say Greatsword is 95% good, the Roman is 85% good. These romans are as good if not better than the previous generation of GW bulk troops (80%). The Romans though aren't just cheaper than the current models, their cheaper than the last two generations of GW plastic miniatures.

For me the slight quality drop is dispropotionate to the significant price difference and makes it very much worth it. I just wish people around here did historical.

Hey, those Greatswords are worth every penny, and they're a large part of what makes the Empire Battalion a fanatastic deal based on cost of parts separately!

And as noted, for an Empire player, the WFB5 plastics from 10 years ago are great stuff. Those were about $1 USD per model ($20 per regiment box of 16, with movement tray included).

On the subject of value for money, I keep getting emails from Lego after I bought my wife a Lego Stormtrooper key ring (kind of like Homer buying Marge a bowling ball, but I think she likes it). Anyway, I opened one up the other day and their prices are excruciating. This little baby will set you back £350

Zoned wrote:Let's assume the cost of producing the minis is the same for both companies (paying the sculptors, making the molds, packaging...etc.)

GW has the additional cost of running it's retail chain (leasing property, paying retail staff...etc) which is a huge cost considering the amount of stores they operate across the world.

Now, more stores should also equal more volume in sales, which may off set the cost of operating said stores. I personally don't know without doing a thorough analysis of their finances.

GW's drastic prices are a result of their overhead. GW makes a 45% higher profit when you purchase it directly from them or at one of their stores. You would think that would be enough to cover those retail outlets.

GW brought in £100M, revenue, but only made a £5M profit. Largely that poor performance is due to paying off their debt. If you ignored their debt it'd be closer to £20-£25M. Next year GW should have that all payed down and we'll see their true colors, if they're willing to loosen up their margin. They also lost about £1.5M to shoplifting. When you look at the picture its not the best of pictures for a company but they are improving largely because people are willing to pay their high prices.

I do think GW is beginning to become aware of price sensitivity. This year rather than bumping up prices as they've done in the past, GW is attempting to maintain current price levels. While they do so by diminishing the contents of kits, it preserves consumer accessibilty which minimalizes the number of consumers dropping out of the market due to price. I think once GW's economic condition stabalizes we'll see their prices level out and remain flat for a year or two.

I can understand peoples arguements when it comes to pricing for regards to GW. Yes overall you get a great quality over the top sculpt with lots of ooo shinies on it. If you are not a historical gamer then that roman model will look as if it were a scrawny dude standing next to the hulk, and I could see you saying well you get what you pay for. Overall though you do not with GW. The days of deals and what nots is long gone, and honestly that roman is spot on for historical gaming. If you are a person who really doesnt know history(if you can't name the four julien emporers off the top of your head don't try) then you will say those models are plane., but considering all minis developed off historicals(Heresy GW CREATED WARGAMMING) that model is an amazing sculpt at an even more amazing price. Where as though GW does amazing if not breath taking work for their genre the price is severly high, and often without an equally amazing paintjob which lets face it most gamers can not produce the model will loose all of its luster. Just my two cents.

BTW, do any of you guys ever do any grocery shopping?

- Ice cream used to be a half gallon, now you get 3/8 gallon but pay more.

- potato chips used to be bigger bags and cost $1.50 each, now they're smaller and cost $2 each

- Yogurt got a couple ounces smaller.

Did GW take over the food industry when I wasn't looking?

I could see myself getting into historicals at some point. The price is right, and I have a real love of history that could be fanned into a nerd obsession with detail...

JohnHwangDD wrote:BTW, do any of you guys ever do any grocery shopping?

- Ice cream used to be a half gallon, now you get 3/8 gallon but pay more.

- potato chips used to be bigger bags and cost $1.50 each, now they're smaller and cost $2 each

- Yogurt got a couple ounces smaller.

Did GW take over the food industry when I wasn't looking?

Mmmm... Milk Chocolate Heresy Bars... Chaos on the Bottom Yogurt...

Unfortunately, Warlord Games isn't competition to GW. WLG have their own niche. Both companies make miniatures. I don't see much competition, and carry both lines of miniatures.

Although, I certainly hope that John and Steve and the rest of the guys over at WLG do someday become competition for GW. Competition spurs more creativity.

I also like John and Steve a whole lot. )

Cyporiean wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:BTW, do any of you guys ever do any grocery shopping?

- Ice cream used to be a half gallon, now you get 3/8 gallon but pay more.

- potato chips used to be bigger bags and cost $1.50 each, now they're smaller and cost $2 each

- Yogurt got a couple ounces smaller.

Did GW take over the food industry when I wasn't looking?

Mmmm... Milk Chocolate Heresy Bars... Chaos on the Bottom Yogurt...

Waaaagh Chocolate?

"Chaos on the Bottom"? Sounds Slaaneshi!

Or Nurglish.

Either way, not eating it!

In a similar vein, has GW taken over the Gasoline market? The electricity? The Natural Gas? Good lord, try paying utilities some time and you'll wish that they had the decency to limit themselves to GWish price increases.

Don't remind me!

And our water is going up, too.

JohnHwangDD wrote:BTW, do any of you guys ever do any grocery shopping?

- Ice cream used to be a half gallon, now you get 3/8 gallon but pay more.

- potato chips used to be bigger bags and cost $1.50 each, now they're smaller and cost $2 each

- Yogurt got a couple ounces smaller.

Did GW take over the food industry when I wasn't looking?

Thank you! This is something I always bring up in a GW pricing thread, but nobody cares.
I'm only in my twenties and I can assure you that prices of everything have at least tripled from when I was a kid old enough to notice how much things cost. But nobody ever moans about how the bakers are ripping us off on bread...

If we're going back to when we were kids, I'll note that I could literally get a scoop of ice cream for a NICKEL. That's right, 5 cents for a small, single scoop of ice cream.

Clearly, ice cream counters are grossly excessive!

I enjoy where this thread is going!

I wonder if I'll get shouted down for this.

A business' profit is essentially revenue minus cost, yes?

Let's assume the cost of producing the minis is the same for both companies (paying the sculptors, making the molds, packaging...etc.)

GW has the additional cost of running it's retail chain (leasing property, paying retail staff...etc) which is a huge cost considering the amount of stores they operate across the world.

Now, more stores should also equal more volume in sales, which may off set the cost of operating said stores. I personally don't know without doing a thorough analysis of their finances.

I just want to point out it isn't a clear cut "jeez, how can one company charge double for minis?" Different companies, different operating costs, different price points.

I've always thought this exact thing when folks complain about GW pricing.

You also have to take into account employee benefits, ie Medical/Dental and possibly any retirement options that they offer to employees. All of which might be crap/low end, like medical and dental at my work, but its still a drain on a companies revenue. Cost of shipping, which goes up as gas prices go up, is also a drain on companies, and GW has stores all over the world. I'm still suprised to see GW offer free shipping on their website, folks get fired at my work for not charging the right amount of shipping to a customer, and god forbid they order the wrong stuff. (20% restock fee + cost of reshipping back to distributor)

People complain about GW price increases like it only happens at GW. If any of these internet scuplting/gaming companies opened up half as many retail establishments as GW and staffed them with 2-3 Full timers, 1-2 part timers. a manager, a regional manager for all stores in a certain area, etc etc. you would in fact see a dramatic increase in their prices. And all of that is regardless of the price of tin/lead/plastic, which most people like pointing towards like that is the only thing that drives price increases in our hobby.

NELS1031 wrote:People complain about GW price increases like it only happens at GW. If any of these internet scuplting/gaming companies opened up half as many retail establishments as GW and staffed them with 2-3 Full timers, 1-2 part timers. a manager, a regional manager for all stores in a certain area, etc etc. you would in fact see a dramatic increase in their prices. And all of that is regardless of the price of tin/lead/plastic, which most people like pointing towards like that is the only thing that drives price increases in our hobby.

None of them do, because it's a bad business model for any company that wants to cater to wargamers instead of mewling preteens. Dedicated retail requires vast volumes, and the GW model forces their games into a certain shape none of the others want to emulate. Even if given their druthers, I believe Privateer Press or Warlord Games wouldn't open their own retail chains, because their products are not nor could they ever be made for the lowest common denominator.

Zoned wrote:I wonder if I'll get shouted down for this.
I just want to point out it isn't a clear cut "jeez, how can one company charge double for minis?" Different companies, different operating costs, different price points.

Oooooo-kaaaaay!

So the fact that GW is many times the size of Warlord and therefore *should* enjoy greater economies of scale in the production and distribution of mass-produced figures makes no odds?

And if I buy their batallion boxes off their webstore it costs me the same as in their shops (which I nver frequent), so therefore I am paying for the opportunity for someone else to buy models? WTF? Either the shops should pay for themselves or they should shut them, simple as.

Nope. GW continue to be price gouging so-and-sos. Welcome to the wonderful world of the "fantasy tax".

The key point about GW (and I've said this before but it bears repeating) is that they are not competing in the wargames market. They are a monopoly in the GW market.

The bulk of their sales are to people who are new to wargaming and who are much less aware of alternatives than members of Dakka.

That is why GW have a huge retail chain. It acts as marketing and recruitment for new users.

It requires high prices to support it and the monopoly position enables high prices to be charged.