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Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

True. But it's still silly that it happens.

Thank God for college campuses. Where anything that happens is handled by actual police.
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

It is? Since when? I guess that's what I get for going to private school.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

dogma wrote:It is? Since when? I guess that's what I get for going to private school.


Yeah, most public colleges have campus police forces, who are pretty much just city cops with a limited jurisdiction.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/13 01:58:00


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Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Interesting. We only had some token rent-a-cops whose only purpose was to prevent students from dealing directly with actual police.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

dogma wrote:Interesting. We only had some token rent-a-cops whose only purpose was to prevent students from dealing directly with actual police.

Which is again, ridiculous.

The rent-a-cops shouldn't be doing anything outside of holding people for the police to talk to. They should NOT be getting involved or handing out any kind of punishments.

But yeah. The community college I'm at right now, we've got police officers from the actual police department who're in *charge*, and then a private security firm which is trained by the local PD.
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

My High School had a very large number of students (thousands), and the school eventually installed security cameras... that they failed to actually use effectively at any time.

There was a girl that was raped in a vacant building on campus, that supposedly had cameras in it. None of which were actually in use. The school was literally a football field away from a large police station. There have been several large fights in the park outside the school, and for a very long time there were several gangs that liked to hang out in the area.

As of late, things appear to have been getting 'better' in the whole city, but the history really speaks for itself overall. Apparently the 80's were an absolute nightmare at the high school.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/13 02:16:23



 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Kanluwen wrote:
The rent-a-cops shouldn't be doing anything outside of holding people for the police to talk to. They should NOT be getting involved or handing out any kind of punishments.


You misunderstand. The rent-a-cops don't punish people, they keep them from being punished. The school might fine someone for destruction of property, or move towards kicking a given person off campus, but they don't put people in jail.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

dogma wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
The rent-a-cops shouldn't be doing anything outside of holding people for the police to talk to. They should NOT be getting involved or handing out any kind of punishments.


You misunderstand. The rent-a-cops don't punish people, they keep them from being punished. The school might fine someone for destruction of property, or move towards kicking a given person off campus, but they don't put people in jail.


For minor matters like that, okay I'll give you that.

Problem is that now there's starting to be a trend towards the campus rent-a-cops dealing with *serious* crimes and handing out "academic probation" rather than reporting them to the police, like they should be doing.
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

All it takes is one campus rent-a-cop getting the living cripes beaten out of them by serious criminals, for that trend to take a huge swing in the opposite direction.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/13 02:27:31



 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

The most serious offenses were usually drug related (most often possession with intent to distribute). Occasionally there were rape allegations, but I can't think of one that made it past interpersonal counseling. Being a very liberal school, the student body tended to be pretty good about self-policing that sort of thing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/13 02:38:35


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Battleship Captain






Found out today that the facebook group got shut down finally.

Apparently the guys who did are expelled or in the process of it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/14 02:06:12


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Emperors Faithful wrote:And your problem with this is?

If you're a fast learner, you'll realise that the claim of self-defense doesn't go down well in schools. Is it fair? No. Is there an alternative other than a full scale, time-wasting investigation? Not really.

A quick thinker realises to either beat thier ass down while making sure the teachers don't get involved (which is pretty much impossible in school areas) or to simply ignore them and defuse the situation. Personally, I'm against going to teachers, you don't need that sort of reputation. Unless my brothers are involved, then it's a whole different ball game.


So you missed the part where the other kid gave him a black eye before he did anything himself?

Seriously, what are you supposed to do, let the other guy beat the hell out of you? By law, you are allowed to defend yourself with the same level of violence you are attacked with. For schools to overide that law is... poor judgement at best.

And punishing the kid who was hit first more severly than the one who swung first borders on idiocity. Self-defense is legal in America, sorry.

CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
Made in au
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter






Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)

And how is the school supposed to know who started what? Take your word for it?

In Australia though, we don't really have that much of a problem becuase the law is getting very much involved in schools. After some deaths as a result of school fights, there are now serious consequences when something like this comes up (with restraining orders being fairly common and other punishments cropping up). So the situation isn't the same (one could isn't as bad) as it is in America.

However:

And punishing the kid who was hit first more severly than the one who swung first borders on idiocity. Self-defense is legal in America, sorry.


I agree with you on this entirely on this one. Although I still am torn between whether you have any actual witnesses to back you up, or simply claimed 'He started it!'. (which is childish to say the least)

Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.

"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
 
   
Made in us
Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch





Akron, Ohio

Ehh, they mess with you at school, you execute a pet and leave the corpse on their doorstep. Or make them eat their parents. Whichever you can do easier.

To those saying a five day suspension is no big deal...lol. I don't know how it works where you live, but at my school, all work you miss is a zero. I wouldn't want to take a zero for a test, especially not because some imbecile decided tostart something (that said, fights don't really happen at my high school).

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Made in au
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter






Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)

Did I ever say a five-day suspension is not going to affect your scores? No.

What I have said is that if you knew the consequences of being dragged into a fight, and you still go ahead, then you should accept them.

Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.

"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
 
   
Made in us
Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch





Akron, Ohio

Dogma wrote: You don't have to. Being suspended for a few days isn't a big deal.


Emperor's Faithful wrote:What I have said is that if you knew the consequences of being dragged into a fight, and you still go ahead, then you should accept them.
You're implying that you have a choice in the matter. Running doesn't work if they're faster, they have friends, they have you cornered, you're in a particularly crowded area, etc. You're also implying that injustice is okay as long as you know about it beforehand.

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Made in au
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter






Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)

It's not that hard to find a teacher in school.

I saying that there are alternatives, and people who cry foul when being punished for their fully informed decisions means little to me.

Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.

"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
 
   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine






I agree logically with EF and emotively with Kaluwen.

My thinking all through high school (it's the same in college ) was this:

If someone attacks me, should I just get out of there (if they don't have a weapon and are just being a d*ck, i.e., they don't mean me serious long term harm)? Yeah.

Will I do what I should? Am I going to stop to figure out their motives? No. I'm going to fight like hell. Because I really can't tell immediately and I don't want to choose the wrong option for myself. And I'm going to be pissed. Most of the time, this can lead to a bad outcome (armbar takedowns have a nasty habit of breaking arms, knees to the face make people catch teeth, and a good stomp will burst someone's skull like an egg-though a schoolyard fight is unlikely to end in me axe stomping my opponent in the face).

For the times I really need to fight and it's a good idea to do so, do I want to be conditioned to run? No.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/14 05:25:56


Check out my blog at:http://ironchaosbrute.blogspot.com.

Vivano crudelis exitus.

Da Boss wrote:No no, Richard Dawkins arresting the Pope is inherently hilarious. It could only be funnier if when it happens, His Holiness exclaims "Rats, it's the Fuzz! Let's cheese it!" and a high speed Popemobile chase ensues.
 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

RustyKnight wrote: You're also implying that injustice is okay as long as you know about it beforehand.


Justice is about the order of people and events in society. Something is just if it operates in accordance with a methodology, which is itself designed to achieve an objective. Justice has very little to do with fairness, unless the order of society is based on fairness (it rarely is).

Schools want to minimize lawsuits, large fights, and extended rivalries predicated on violence. In order to do this they punish retaliation (an escalating action) more severely than attack (an instigating action). You could argue that an instigating action has an inherent effect of escalation, and that the respective punishments should be equivalent as a result. You could also argue that the defender should receive no punishment, but that seems irrational given ultimate goal of avoiding violence altogether (and practical concerns of legitimate use of force, and the availability of information).

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in au
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter






Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)

I roll my eyes at all the claims of people who claim to curb stomp you opponents IRL at school. I doubt very much that you are all ninja's or that you fight like Rocky on crack.

In all the fights I've gotten into at school I can fairly say that I didn't always win. Went up against a rugby player. Getting speartackled hurts. Please stop with the claims that you will kill these people with your awesome super human techniques if you get into a fight, becuase it's honestly bullcrap.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/01/14 10:18:55


Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.

"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, MORE may be an exaggeration, but if you gave as good as you got, the school will likely look on you as bad as the bloke who started it.

What the school is trying to teach people is that if a guy hits you, don't bash his head in with a brick while on school property. Do it off campus. (However tempting the choice may be)

Corrected your typo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vulcan wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:And your problem with this is?

If you're a fast learner, you'll realise that the claim of self-defense doesn't go down well in schools. Is it fair? No. Is there an alternative other than a full scale, time-wasting investigation? Not really.

A quick thinker realises to either beat thier ass down while making sure the teachers don't get involved (which is pretty much impossible in school areas) or to simply ignore them and defuse the situation. Personally, I'm against going to teachers, you don't need that sort of reputation. Unless my brothers are involved, then it's a whole different ball game.


So you missed the part where the other kid gave him a black eye before he did anything himself?

Seriously, what are you supposed to do, let the other guy beat the hell out of you? By law, you are allowed to defend yourself with the same level of violence you are attacked with. For schools to overide that law is... poor judgement at best.

And punishing the kid who was hit first more severly than the one who swung first borders on idiocity. Self-defense is legal in America, sorry.

No gak you people suck at this. You defend yourself. You defend yourself:
1. Enough you don't get pounded. You take the penalty and find them off campus. Then you deal with them so severely that you have a rep as a psycho badass and everyone knows never to mess with you ever ever again.
2. Defend yourself so intensely that you have a rep as a psycho badass and everyone knows never to mess with you ever ever again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/14 16:14:05


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Emperors Faithful wrote:I roll my eyes at all the claims of people who claim to curb stomp you opponents IRL at school. I doubt very much that you are all ninja's or that you fight like Rocky on crack.

In all the fights I've gotten into at school I can fairly say that I didn't always win. Went up against a rugby player. Getting speartackled hurts. Please stop with the claims that you will kill these people with your awesome super human techniques if you get into a fight, becuase it's honestly bullcrap.


Did I say curb stomp? No.
Did I say superhuman techniques? No.
Would I always win? I'd always try.
And MCMAP helps against people with no idea what they're doing

Check out my blog at:http://ironchaosbrute.blogspot.com.

Vivano crudelis exitus.

Da Boss wrote:No no, Richard Dawkins arresting the Pope is inherently hilarious. It could only be funnier if when it happens, His Holiness exclaims "Rats, it's the Fuzz! Let's cheese it!" and a high speed Popemobile chase ensues.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Emperors Faithful wrote:And how is the school supposed to know who started what? Take your word for it?


How about (to take the example of me in grade school) when one is a known troublemaker and the other (me) is half his size? Is it okay to apply that much common sense to the issue?

CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Vulcan wrote:
How about (to take the example of me in grade school) when one is a known troublemaker and the other (me) is half his size? Is it okay to apply that much common sense to the issue?


Punishing someone because of prior actions without any immediate evidence is irrational, and discriminatory. In fact, the tendency of certain authority figures to make such choices makes up a good portion of the rationale behind zero tolerance policies.

There is no reason to conclude that a person with a history that includes violence has been violent in any specific situation. Nor is there any reason to assume that the smaller person did not instigate.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in au
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter






Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)

Funnily enough, it's ussually the smaller kid who mouths off. Though I don't often see them throwing the first punch...

Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.

"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





dogma wrote:
Vulcan wrote:
How about (to take the example of me in grade school) when one is a known troublemaker and the other (me) is half his size? Is it okay to apply that much common sense to the issue?


Punishing someone because of prior actions without any immediate evidence is irrational, and discriminatory. In fact, the tendency of certain authority figures to make such choices makes up a good portion of the rationale behind zero tolerance policies.

There is no reason to conclude that a person with a history that includes violence has been violent in any specific situation. Nor is there any reason to assume that the smaller person did not instigate.


Wow. I... just don't know what to say to that. Aside from the little detail that (at least in America) things tend to work that way - the law-abiding citizen who is assaulted by someone with a criminal history generally gets the benfit of the doubt. Unless the subsequent investigation turns up something that proves otherwise, anyway.

For schools to punish all people in a fight equally is like jailing someone who was assaulted... for being assaulted. And that leads to a breakdown of respect for authority. Unfair authority has nothing behind it but authoritative fiat - in essence, force via the uncompromising rules. Respect comes from judgement and fairness.

So all zero tolerance does is teach that the authorities are unfair and not to be respected. I think we have enough other problems with people having little- to no respect for the authorities to teach the next generation that lesson.

CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Vulcan wrote:
Wow. I... just don't know what to say to that. Aside from the little detail that (at least in America) things tend to work that way - the law-abiding citizen who is assaulted by someone with a criminal history generally gets the benfit of the doubt. Unless the subsequent investigation turns up something that proves otherwise, anyway.


You have a very skewed understanding of how the justice system functions. The burden of proof is on the prosecution, not the defendant. No one gets the benefit of the doubt, except in the instance where testimony is being provided, and that's only the result of juries not understanding the nature of impartiality. Simply convicting someone on the basis of "He's done it before" is absolute nonsense that does not establish anything beyond a reasonable doubt.

You're essentially saying that we should follow the model of how things work in those cases where the system fails.

Vulcan wrote:
For schools to punish all people in a fight equally is like jailing someone who was assaulted... for being assaulted.


No it isn't, because suspension is not at all comparable to a criminal record. Nor are scholastic disciplinary functions equivalent to the law.

It should also be pointed out that "he started it" is generally not a valid legal defense (and certainly not an effective basis for a case), and if two people are discovered in the course of a significant altercation they will both generally face charges.

Vulcan wrote:
And that leads to a breakdown of respect for authority. Unfair authority has nothing behind it but authoritative fiat - in essence, force via the uncompromising rules. Respect comes from judgement and fairness.


You don't have to respect authority in order to understand that it has power over you. Some people follow the law because they fear the consequences of not doing so. Some people follow it because they consider breaking the law a fundamentally immoral act, even in those instances that the law itself is not a target of respect (the rules aren't fair, but they are the rules). And some people follow the law because they respect, and often even though they realize it is not fair. After all, the law isn't directly about fairness, its about justice as the maintenance of order.

It isn't enough to say that fairness teaches respect, because ultimately 'fairness' is nothing more than the perception of receipt of deserved punishment; something which virtually no one will accept without a good deal of maturity.

Vulcan wrote:
So all zero tolerance does is teach that the authorities are unfair and not to be respected. I think we have enough other problems with people having little- to no respect for the authorities to teach the next generation that lesson.


You don't teach respect for authority by catering to the whims of the people being punished. I have no idea why you would even begin to think that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/15 18:49:04


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch





Akron, Ohio

American adolescents respect teachers? When did this happen?

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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter






Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)

I order to avoid writing a wall of text, I'm just going to say I agree wholeheartedly with dogma.

Apart from maybe the comparison between 'fairness' and 'justice'. To me, I would say that the law and justice can be two different things, although one would hope that they are the same. I view the words justice and fairness to be synonomous.

Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.

"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Emperors Faithful wrote:I view the words justice and fairness to be synonomous.


Plato hates you.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
 
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