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A few parts of the codex stand out to me
Super expensive super big bugs that rock face

Super weird moderately expensive bugs that are specialized

Super cheap bugs that can be suprisingly effective

Holy gak deployment options, look at all those deployment options

The new trygon. This model is so awesome, I want to run 3 just to run them.

Swarmlord, the ultimate nob biker killer. Hes such a pimp he slapped your mom and all she said was thank you sir.

It seems to me that a lot of old nidzilla people are quitting. I think this codex is good, not OP but still good. Like the SW one. It is good but not a game breaking mess. This is exactly where it should be.

To those people that say Tyranids have no ways to get tanks or deal with mech? Zoans and Tyrannofexs should be able to handily deal with any tanks on the board. I think the new nids have a unique ability to split their army into two forces with so many deepstriking and outflanking units. A huge footslogging force and a deepstriking/outflanking force that will pin gunlines down and force mech into the middle.

Anyway, ive only played one game with mine so far. I proxied a lot but I managed to get a good victory over my Gunline IG friend. My goal was to force him to choose between the Two tyrannofexs and gaunts coming up the front or the DS Trygon, outflanking genestealers, podding zoans, and gargoyles in the middle of his line. I managed to pop 2 of his 4 tanks, and wipe most of his troops. He killed the tyrannofexs and almost the Tyrant and the trygon.

To those people that say Tyranids have no ways to get tanks or deal with mech? Zoans and Tyrannofexs should be able to handily deal with any tanks on the board. I think the new nids have a unique ability to split their army into two forces with so many deepstriking and outflanking units. A huge footslogging force and a deepstriking/outflanking force that will pin gunlines down and force mech into the middle.

This is exactly how bugs should be played. As some kind of terrible wolf pack. I hated bugs when the option was 'hurf durf I charge you with my genestealers and shoot you with my fexs every game'.

Now though I can run a big mob of guys and a bunch of sneaky things and basically pin you in the corner.

As for space wolves. I think wolves are significantly better then nids, and are almost an I win button against nids.

Not enough anti-tank? You can take 9 zoanthropes for what, 540 points? Those cover nicely your anti-infantry AND anti-tank roles pretty well. Supplement them with some tyrannofexes if you want, or something with a heavy venom cannon.

And the carnifexes got more expensive because their basic form re-rolls ALL misses, even against tanks [very handy for those moving targets] and got a PLASMA CANNON added on.

Tyrant guard getting more expensive for not much upgrade is a bit annoying, but I really like the tyranid prime, despite what he makes me think of my chaos lord.

Soooo for the same points, I can get something stronger, tougher, ignores armour saves, causes instant death if the enemy fails a 3d6 ld test, same armour save, re-rolls 1's to hit in hth, and makes everything within 12" fearless?

Hell if I join my chaos lord to a squad that isn't a cult troop, he LOSES fearlessness.

Augustus wrote:What am I going to do now with 8 carnifiexes?

If no one else is going to say it, then fine, I will....

Mail Them To ME!

It seems to me that a lot of old nidzilla people are quitting.

I only run 3 carnifeces so I am not a nidzilla player but the new codex was so uninspiring. I bought it, read it, played one game, then returned to my guard. The biggest thing that pisses me off is that they nerfed or invalidated every previous army build. S9 Venom cannon with only one shot that minuses 1 from the damage table? That's the best we got for our ol' friend the carnifex?

I wonder the odds of that actually killing a land raider. Blast weapons are hard to calculate a hit percentage but with only BS of 3 if you scatter it most likely is missing, but not always, so lets say 45% chance to hit. Then 16% chance to penetrate (you ain't doing squat on the glancing table) and 16% chance to kill...Grand total of 1.1% YAY! So with 6 turns average that 6.6% per carnifex if he spent every turn shooting the land raider. Even with 3 groups of 3 carnifeces and lets throw in two hive tyrants all shooting at the land raider thats only a 72% chance to kill it! Well you will probably kill it earlier with all the weapon destroyed and immobilized results, but still.

Volkov wrote:The biggest thing that pisses me off is that they nerfed or invalidated every previous army build.

My old build was a Tyrant, two Warrior broods, four Gaunt broods, two really beefed up Fexes, and a Lictor. I think they rather quite well buffed my army style thank you.

My old build was a Tyrant, two Warrior broods, four Gaunt broods, two really beefed up Fexes, and a Lictor. I think they rather quite well buffed my army style thank you.

I hope this is a 1000 point list, if its 1500 then, I dont see how you can win in this edition. How are you going to deal with tanks? Hope dead guants jam up the track mechanism?

Actually it was a 1750 point list, which is kind of the point, as I get so many more points to play with now. The Fexes are being changed to T-Fexes (i only ever had one half built and proxied a second). I think I'm going to swap out the Warriors for Tervigons in my tournament style list, and then I still have points left over for Hive Guard. I LOVE this new book, so many options.

Actually it was a 1750 point list, which is kind of the point, as I get so many more points to play with now. The Fexes are being changed to T-Fexes (i only ever had one half built and proxied a second). I think I'm going to swap out the Warriors for Tervigons in my tournament style list, and then I still have points left over for Hive Guard. I LOVE this new book, so many options.

That sounds like a more competitve list, but it also proved my point that your old list while competitive under the old codex is now...well not, and ergo you have to buy new models

Volkov wrote:

Actually it was a 1750 point list, which is kind of the point, as I get so many more points to play with now. The Fexes are being changed to T-Fexes (i only ever had one half built and proxied a second). I think I'm going to swap out the Warriors for Tervigons in my tournament style list, and then I still have points left over for Hive Guard. I LOVE this new book, so many options.

That sounds like a more competitve list, but it also proved my point that your old list while competitive under the old codex is now...well not, and ergo you have to buy new models

The Carnifex just changed roles. The Tyrannofex is supposed to be the Monstrous creature anti-tank choice. The Carnifex is the mid-range monstrous creature. So yes, you have to convert to a Carnifex to a Tyrannofex. How do you think Space Wolves feel? They had to get rid of their Leman Russ' and had to find a way to represent ThunderWolf Calvary.

I don't have to, I just want to. I could easily take my old list and just add more stuff to it as I have tons, but now they have more new options to try out and have fun with.

Aduro wrote:I don't have to, I just want to. I could easily take my old list and just add more stuff to it as I have tons, but now they have more new options to try out and have fun with.

Woah, Woah, Woah. Are you trying to say getting new models is fun? And that sometimes putting new models into the line is a good thing? WOW!

Pft, no, of course not. I want a new codex, but I want to keep playing the exact same army I have been with no changes what soever.

Aduro wrote:Pft, no, of course not. I want a new codex, but I want to keep playing the exact same army I have been with no changes what soever.

QFT

Codex has almost no options with its units. I miss the biomorph options in previous codex (i spent soo much time collecting heads for WYSIWYG). Elite section is pointcost x model count = your unit cost, no options available to customize the unit except a transport.

Warriors get WS BS W A Sv increase for only 16 pts a model to make the unit 30 a pop. Which if you took all the upgrades in previous codex to get almost the same ( Still have 2 wounds instead of the 3 currently)stat line it would only cost you a total of 24 pts. Better stat line but extremly expensive.

Genestealers are pwn sauce. Cost 2 points less increase brood size by 8. 20 with a brood lord cost 286 points with no upgrades.

Hormaguants decreased point cost by 4!! Toxin sacs cost increased by 1 but better upgrade now (+1 str vs a 4+ poison attack).

Termagaunts increased cost by 1 but have a higher I (6) ooo.

They biggest change (unit wise from previous codex)honestly gargolyes point cost is reduced by half! mm.. Termagaunt for 6 points or a flying termagaunt for 6 points... Thats a hard choice!...90 models with toxin sac upgrade cost 630 wound on 4+ move 12" and did I say 90 models!

Biggest nerf in the codex has to be shadow in the warp. Instead of all test they are now are only within 12 inches...Lash seer GG.

In tourneys you will see that swarm Nids will be a very dangerous with a good general. Everyone right now plays anti mech with few templates. With this codex if you dont bring pie plates or any sort of template to a tourney and you "happen" to fight the hive mind you are SoL.

Im looking foward to making ambush nid list, lictors ygmarl genestealrs will be fun! With my carnifex brood blocking transport lanes seriously base + 2inch apart and 12 wounds gives everything .

Its late .. and I need to get back to finishing painting my army for tourney sunday!

Tyranid players complaining about their new codex removing options and changing army lists makes chaos players like me headdesk.....over and over and over and over again.

Aw, you can't give your tyrant +1 WS and reduce enemy WS by 1? Well then let's just give you WS8 then.

Can't give your stealers 4+ saves? Well, play 5th edition scrub, let terrain and gaunts give you your 4+ save. Meanwhile, here's this other unit with 4+ saves that secretly deploys!

Complained about lictors being too weak? Well here you go, broods of 3, 3 wounds each! EXACTLY what y'all asked for! And a special character!

Have some new units, why not? Want a shooty fex? Use a tyrannofex. Want a super cc fex? Well you can still do that, but heck why not a trygon? Don't like expensive hive tyrants? Well here you go, an AMAZING HQ that's cheap and super amazing!

New codexes invalidate old builds - that happens, it's evolution. But to say your options got reduced? Come ON. Chaos had its options reduced. 1ksons are crap, non-khorne CSM are pretty much beaten in cc by everything else, terminators can't be fearless, chaos lords blow and cost too much, daemon princes are relatively frail and pigeonholed into their roles with ZERO customizability, daemons leave a dry taste in everyone's mouth, spawn are the worst unit ever, bikes cost too much, dreadnoughts got their penalty worsened and their only benefit taken away, as well as options like possession.

So yeah.....quitcherbitchin!

I love it. It finally plays the way I wanted to play it when I got the army.

rlsquared2 wrote:In tourneys you will see that swarm Nids will be a very dangerous with a good general. Everyone right now plays anti mech with few templates. With this codex if you dont bring pie plates or any sort of template to a tourney and you "happen" to fight the hive mind you are SoL.

Think so? because I think regular old marine armies and especially Space Wolves will still easily shoot up then outfight any kind of gaunts in melee. Especially because Gaunts can't do anything in melee to transports. I'll look forward to engaging hopeful new bug players.

All the things being listed in this thread are to expensive. Tyranno fexes are 250+ ? 2 of those and the MAX complement of zoantropes is over 1K points, plus an HQ, you are looking at 1200+ points to have a mediocre chance to engage tanks at 18 inches, and 2 ok blasts? Thats the BEST that can be done for antitank. Probably need the pods for the zoantropes and then they are all coming from reserve and showing up... when? On target? Mis-happing? To far away? and now we are talking over 1200 points for 5 units that can engage tanks?

In an 1850 game this list would only have:

2 Tyranofexes
2 20x stealer units
1 Tyrant HQ whatever

In an 1850 list, that only leaves about 600 points for troops, so 2 20 strong stealer units as outlined above? Not sufficient.

Marines and IG are going to eat this alive, it's all to expensive.

Acardia wrote:I played a 1500 match vs Nids with my Tau on friday. I was disappointed with the Nid book as they are my other army, and think I'll take Tau to 'ard boyz this year.

2 units of rapid firing FW with Ml support dropped the swarm lord in one turn, Malwoc got smoked by 2 units of crisis suit fire in a turn. Kroot rapid fired Deathleaper. Genestealers still munched on kroot, as expected.

I ended up taking all but 2 hive guard out by the end of the game and he dropped a few FW, My Shas'o 200 pts of kroot, 1 devil fish, 1 hammer head and 2 of my 9 crisis suits.

the broodlord alone charged my 2 broadsides and they fought for 2 full turns before the BL died due to POTW.

sounds like your opponent had a weak list for 1500 points. Must have had almost no troop / horde selection. Seems like he just took all the new expensive models he could. Usually = fail with any codex.

Volkov wrote:

That sounds like a more competitve list, but it also proved my point that your old list while competitive under the old codex is now...well not, and ergo you have to buy new models

And? What do you expect when an army gets an overhaul? The last book was one dimensional with MCs. Obviously they are going to take a different route with this one.

Saying the new nids don't have anti tank is just wrong. Spore podding in zoans is amazing. S10 lance shots at rear armor is amazing. Tyrannofex is the equivilent of an ig tank and is packing three weapons. They don't stand a chance. 600 points for troops is plenty for how cheap gaunts are. I'm sorry but stealers are not the only troop options now. Get past the old ciodex.

I'm sorry your old builds don't work. But going from praying to glance a tank to death to what we have now is awesome.

Night Lords wrote:

Volkov wrote:

That sounds like a more competitve list, but it also proved my point that your old list while competitive under the old codex is now...well not, and ergo you have to buy new models

And? What do you expect when an army gets an overhaul? The last book was one dimensional with MCs. Obviously they are going to take a different route with this one.

I suppose the new direction is combo swarms? As in Synergistsic units and a wider variety of Tyranids big and small?

I have to admit, that does sound better than the last edition and more in keeping with the army.

In practice though a predominately slow melee army, with rare shooting and no tanks, despite the variety of new units overall, still feels very underpowered for 5th.

Lots of flash, not much content.

Also creating units, especially biomorphed organic style units, and alpha critters and non existant minis, is poor. Proxy models will abound and telling things apart, may be difficult for quite a while. I expect to see games like this:

---
Whats that carnifex again?

Oh its a pod actually

and that one?

It's a Harpy

and this?

A tyranofex

and the one over there with no arms?

that's a Tervignon

and....

Not to divert the issue, but as for comparisons to chaos, sure, the chaos codex is so full of obvious stinkers, in that respect it makes this one look better. But at least the chaos list can have takes all comers troops units, with Champions, custom marks, not ones with:

no antitank, no long range, no transports, no armor, no champions, melee troops

Despite its stinker units I'd say the Chaos codex is far more capable than this one, because of the massive effective troop choice variety.

Augustus wrote:

rlsquared2 wrote:In tourneys you will see that swarm Nids will be a very dangerous with a good general. Everyone right now plays anti mech with few templates. With this codex if you dont bring pie plates or any sort of template to a tourney and you "happen" to fight the hive mind you are SoL.

Think so? because I think regular old marine armies and especially Space Wolves will still easily shoot up then outfight any kind of gaunts in melee. Especially because Gaunts can't do anything in melee to transports. I'll look forward to engaging hopeful new bug players.

All the things being listed in this thread are to expensive. Tyranno fexes are 250+ ? 2 of those and the MAX complement of zoantropes is over 1K points, plus an HQ, you are looking at 1200+ points to have a mediocre chance to engage tanks at 18 inches, and 2 ok blasts? Thats the BEST that can be done for antitank. Probably need the pods for the zoantropes and then they are all coming from reserve and showing up... when? On target? Mis-happing? To far away? and now we are talking over 1200 points for 5 units that can engage tanks?

In an 1850 game this list would only have:

2 Tyranofexes
2 20x stealer units
1 Tyrant HQ whatever

In an 1850 list, that only leaves about 600 points for troops, so 2 20 strong stealer units as outlined above? Not sufficient.

Marines and IG are going to eat this alive, it's all to expensive.

Why would you take the MAX number of zoanthropes, if you've got 2 Tyrannofexes? How much S10 firepower do you really need? (And can we quit with the hyperbole? If you've got 9 Zoanthropes and 2 Tyrannofexes, that's a hell of a lot better than a "mediocre" chance to engage tanks at 18". Even a Space Wolf tank is going to get hit by 3 S10 AP1 lance weapons and 2-3 S10 shots, and anyone else is in significant trouble.)

Once again, I get the feeling you're not bothering to read the EXTREMELY detailed analysis/reports Mahu & Shep are providing. The following fits nicely into 1500 pts:
2 Tyrannofexes
2 Tervigons
2x 20 'gants (making the Tervigons Troops)
2x (2x Hive Guard)
Tyranid Prime

Starts with 49 bodies, and adds at least 6d6 more (on average, 9d6). 4 BS4 S10 shots at 48", and 8 BS4 S8 (no LoS) shots at 24". At 1750/1850, you replace the Prime with the Swarmlord, add a couple Tyrant Guard if you want, and add more Hive Guard/Zoanthropes/Venomthropes to taste.

Or, if you want the drop version (1850):
2 Screamer-killers w/Bioplasma in Pods
2x (3x Zoanthropes in pods)
Deathleaper
4x (10x Genestealers w/Toxin Sacs)
10x Termagants in pod
Tyranid Prime

Look, there is plenty to dislike about the new book, starting with the (as usual) poor rules drafting, and certainly continuing on to units that will never see competitive play. It's fine if you don't find it inspiring. But there's no reason to resort to fingers-in-the-ears nay-saying; it is entirely possible to build competitive lists.

I know I'm going to enjoy dropping a 3 strong brood of Pyrofexes in a Mycetic Spore right next to an Imperial Guard Gun line and watch the squishies BURN.

thekerrick wrote: Tyrannofex is the equivilent of an ig tank and is packing three weapons.

Well, not really. First, it's anywhere from 50-100 pts more expensive than an IG tank. It has no pie plates/low AP options, is slower, can't fire all 3 of its weapons at once, and its weapons are horribly mismatched... 48" range S10, 18" S5, and a flamer? (And if you take any option other than the S10 gun, it threatens only 12-18"... kinda like the Hellhound and its variants, except for the ability to move 18", followed by a 12" move+shoot the following turn lets it get into the fray plenty fast.)

I'm not saying the Tyrannofex is terrible, and against some things (like a single Lascannon or up-close Melta) it's much tougher than a tank, but it certainly is not the equivalent of a tank. After all, for every Melta or Lascannon that could pop a tank but only wound a Tyrannofex, there are a dozen bolters or 2 dozen Lasguns that could eventually kill the T-fex and never scratch the surface of a tank (barring AV10 vs. Bolters, of course).

Whenever I've tested them out, they've never done badly for me, but I haven't been overly impressed by them...I pay Land Raider points for them, and they don't add anywhere near what a Land Raider adds to an army.

Why would you take the MAX number of zoanthropes, if you've got 2 Tyrannofexes? How much S10 firepower do you really need? (And can we quit with the hyperbole? If you've got 9 Zoanthropes and 2 Tyrannofexes, that's a hell of a lot better than a "mediocre" chance to engage tanks at 18". Even a Space Wolf tank is going to get hit by 3 S10 AP1 lance weapons and 2-3 S10 shots, and anyone else is in significant trouble.)

I don't think you are understanding my criteria or the example. Allow me to elaborate.

The Max number of Zoantropes in my example is trying to illustrate the BEST the codex could do for AT.

I say Mediocre, not because of some sense of drama, but because of range and deployment, maneuver, position issues, and army composition, certainly the AP1 S10 lance shot is incredible, considered in an academic vacuum, but position is the issue, it requires a pod or 2 turns of maneuver, and against tanks with 36 inch ranges or greater it may never get to fire at them (unless it pods in).

With my game experience with marine drop pods, outflanking genestealers and deep strike I don't think of the pod as a reliable delivery mechanism, because of the unknowns of deep strike and reserve role timing.

So the 2 options become set up and walk (looses a couple turns of shooting to close range) or pod in, lose 1-3? turns of shooting and risk the entire unit. In even a strait up comparison (I know vacuums are a bit scholastic, but humor me) heavy support choices will have a decent chance of destroying that unit outright before it even engages.

So I stand by mediocre.

Augustus wrote:

Why would you take the MAX number of zoanthropes, if you've got 2 Tyrannofexes? How much S10 firepower do you really need? (And can we quit with the hyperbole? If you've got 9 Zoanthropes and 2 Tyrannofexes, that's a hell of a lot better than a "mediocre" chance to engage tanks at 18". Even a Space Wolf tank is going to get hit by 3 S10 AP1 lance weapons and 2-3 S10 shots, and anyone else is in significant trouble.)

I don't think you are understanding my criteria or the example. Allow me to elaborate.

The Max number of Zoantropes in my example is trying to illustrate the BEST the codex could do for AT.

I say Mediocre, not because of some sense of drama, but because of range and deployment, maneuver, position issues, and army composition, certainly the AP1 S10 lance shot is incredible, considered in an academic vacuum, but position is the issue, it requires a pod or 2 turns of maneuver, and against tanks with 36 inch ranges or greater it may never get to fire at them (unless it pods in).

With my game experience with marine drop pods, outflanking genestealers and deep strike I don't think of the pod as a reliable delivery mechanism, because of the unknowns of deep strike and reserve role timing.

So the 2 options become set up and walk (looses a couple turns of shooting to close range) or pod in, lose 1-3? turns of shooting and risk the entire unit. In even a strait up comparison (I know vacuums are a bit scholastic, but humor me) heavy support choices will have a decent chance of destroying that unit outright before it even engages.

So I stand by mediocre.

Ok, thats bs i'm sorry. Saying that deep striking anti-tank is not effective is ridiculous. In my chaos list I had 2 squads of obliterators deepstriking and two squads of termicide deepstriking and it blew the living hell out of any armor I faced. I killed three soul grinders in one turn! Zoanthropes are even better than melta guns too! No minimum range garbage! So what if they die? obliterators and termicides don't last longer than a turn or two anyway and I still win games!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Augustus wrote:
Especially because Gaunts can't do anything in melee to transports.

Well, what you do with that then is, you march the gaunts around the vehicle and use your Zoanthropes or any sort of high STR gun and blow it up, forcing the units inside to die instantly.

Sneezypanda wrote:

Augustus wrote:
...MAX number of zoanthropes,...I stand by mediocre.

Ok, thats bs i'm sorry. Saying that deep striking anti-tank is not effective is ridiculous. In my chaos list I had 2 squads of obliterators deepstriking and two squads of termicide deepstriking and it blew the living hell out of any armor I faced. I killed three soul grinders in one turn! Zoanthropes are even better than melta guns too! No minimum range garbage! So what if they die? obliterators and termicides don't last longer than a turn or two anyway and I still win games!

I'm not saying it's not (potentially) effective. I think I have conceded that the lance shot is pretty good at a couple of points here, what I am saying is it isn't reliable. Reserves arrival times are irregular? It might not be there when it is needed, rarely it might never show. Then of course, there's the risk associated with deep strike as well. I also think the short range is a significant issue, when other races high power firepower is long range (often double or more) and often moves and shoots too, on tanks.

Zoantropes aren't better than meltaguns, 2d6+8 is a better spread than d6+10, overall, even with lance.

Sneezypanda wrote:

Augustus wrote:Especially because Gaunts can't do anything in melee to transports.

Well, what you do with that then is, you march the gaunts around the vehicle and use your Zoanthropes or any sort of high STR gun and blow it up, forcing the units inside to die instantly.

I suspect you don't know the rules for transports quite right, check the emergency disembarkation rules, that's not how it works, and it hasn't been since 5th came out. Blocking the doors doesn't kill the occupants, and is patently hard to do anyway, when most tanks have 3 doors.

Augustus wrote:Zoantropes aren't better than meltaguns, 2d6+8 is a better spread than d6+10, overall, even with lance.

Depends entirely on what you're shooting at; they are remarkably similar overall, actually. The Lance is better against AV 14 targets, though.
AV 14: S10 lance (1/6 chance to do nothing, 1/6 chance to glance or better; 4/6 chance to penetrate); meltagun (10/36 chance to do nothing, 5/36 chance to glance, 21/36 chance to penetrate).
AV 13: S10 lance (1/6 chance to do nothing, 1/6 chance to glance or better; 4/6 chance to penetrate); melta (1/6 to do nothing, 4/36 to glance; 26/36 to penetrate).
AV 12: S10 lance (1/6 chance to do nothing, 1/6 chance to glance or better; 4/6 chance to penetrate) melta (3/36 to do nothing, 3/36 to glance; 30/36 to penetrate).
AV 11: S10 lance (1/6 chance to glance; 5/6 chance to penetrate); melta: (1/36 to do nothing; 2/36 to glance; 33/36 to penetrate).
AV 10: S10 lance (100% penetration); melta: (1/36 to glance; 35/36 penetration).

The Lance hits from 18" out; melta requires closing w/in 6". Lance is subject to pyschic test/defense.

Augustus wrote:

Sneezypanda wrote:Well, what you do with that then is, you march the gaunts around the vehicle and use your Zoanthropes or any sort of high STR gun and blow it up, forcing the units inside to die instantly.

I suspect you don't know the rules for transports quite right, check the emergency disembarkation rules, that's not how it works, and it hasn't been since 5th came out. Blocking the doors doesn't kill the occupants, and is patently hard to do anyway, when most tanks have 3 doors.

He didn't say "block the doors." Still perfectly viable to kill all on board by surrounding the vehicle & getting a Wrecked result.