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yeah your probably right. I still dont see though how orks increase power either. I mean they both just add more of what they already have after a certain points level.

Which increases their power....

Yes, I know. My question was why dark eldar do not increase power going from 2000-2500 and orks do.

If you have ork vs deldar at 2000 why would the ork player suddenly have a stronger army at 2500.

A DE army brings a solid core of darklances and mobility. After a certain point they can't take anymore.

Orks have lots of good choices, and once they've taken those, they have MORE good choices. And after that, when there's points left over, they can take MORE good choices. Now they have 2500 points of solid stuff. The DE has 1850, maybe 2000 points of solid stuff and 500ish of....meh, stuff that fills out the points and isn't deadly.

The meta wont change? Blood Angels will be around for 'ard boyz just like IG were released a month before last years first round..

lol the meta will be totally different and DE can get tabled in like 2 turns by shooty space wolf lists so I would be very careful and pay attention to your local scene (Im a strict observer of local scenes which has helped me get over 5k free points from 'ard boyz)

the flying army of paper cut outs tends to die to unlimited range living lightnings and long fangs.. unless you assume you'll always go first then you may be able to kill a squad first, but planning to always go first just gets you killed when you dont

I will respectfully disagree that shooty Space Wolves own DE.

I also point out the inherent flaw in your logic. Apparently DE lose to shooty Space Wolves...unless we go first. The inherent flaw is that then apparently shooty Space Wolves always lose to DE...unless they go first.

I do not believe either statement is true.

I dont believe anywhere in my statement did I say that space wolves always lose to DE if they got second, actually I specifically said the DE might be able to kill a squad :p

The problem is (in terms of 'ard boyz) the DE list is virtually the exact same every year, every tournament, every game.. so if someone knows you're a good player and they know you're gonna try to be in the top 3 they can magic-bullet you pretty well

Space wolves are just the most recent example of an army that can rock DE something pretty damn fierce.. you cant deny that living lightning + long fangs is not a problem

Sure the long fangs may be able to be neutralized but 3-4 rune priests will bring down atleast 2 raiders a turn especially with choosers

DE were able to do very well vs all marine lists and I simply think given the list space wolves are a huge counter and thats a problem for an army that already HAD huge counters in competitive play.. and not much else to do except bring the same list

Yeah I'll prob get like 50 DE posts saying how the lists are different, etc, etc but I havent seen a single new list since 4th ed from DE because the codex has very few workable units

Kirasu wrote:I dont believe anywhere in my statement did I say that space wolves always lose to DE if they got second, actually I specifically said the DE might be able to kill a squad :p

You specifically said they "tends to die to unlimited range living lightnings and long fangs.. unless you assume you'll always go first " the inference being that if you go first you do not tend to die. But by this point we're muttering semantics so I'll accept that you said shooty Space Wolves always win and the only question is whether or not we kill a squad or two first. I still disagree.

The problem is (in terms of 'ard boyz) the DE list is virtually the exact same every year

In terms of 'Ard boyz I absolutely agree with you - our units and FOS are pretty much stamped in stone at that point because we have to bring everything and usually we only have 1-2 good options in any given FOS slot. I certainly agree that in terms of 'Ard Boyz the DE have a lot of problems and they are certainly not limited to Space Puppies

if someone knows you're a good player and they know you're gonna try to be in the top 3 they can magic-bullet you pretty well

If they know your army and that's their purpose. I'm not sure any army is safe from this.

Space wolves are just the most recent example of an army that can rock DE something pretty damn fierce.. you cant deny that living lightning + long fangs is not a problem

Are we talking 'Ard Boyz only here? In terms of play at point levels of 1500-1850 I accept living lightning and long fangs as problematic...but then again lots of things are problematic. I don't accept them as insta win vs. DE. At 'Ard Boyz point levels I agree there are major difficulties due to the aforementioned nature of how the DE army maxes out. For the record, at 'Ard Boyz or in regular tournament play I am much more concerned with Razorspam then I am with Long Fangs and Living Lightning.

DE were able to do very well vs all marine lists and I simply think given the list space wolves are a huge counter and thats a problem for an army that already HAD huge counters in competitive play.. and not much else to do except bring the same list

Again I'm not sure if by 'competitive play' you are specifically referring to 'Ard Boyz (in which case I agree with your assessment gaurdedly and with some exceptions) or if you are referring to all tourney play at all point levels (in which case I disagree with you strongly).

Yeah I'll prob get like 50 DE posts saying how the lists are different, etc, etc but I havent seen a single new list since 4th ed from DE because the codex has very few workable units

Lists in 5th are different from lists in 4th (Raider spam vs. WWP). Overall I think the calcifying of the list has far more to do with the age of the codex (barring a dramatic rule change it's not like a random DE player will suddenly shout eureka and change the DE play environment). I do agree the limitation of truly functional units does not help the situation.

Thor, I agree with the concept of glass cannon (a phrase I use often) and that the strength of the DE is just tacking on more and more power.

If you take an 1850 list of raider spam (for me that's 6x troop choices, 2 wych squads, 1 RJB squad, Archon+Friends, 3x Ravagers) and kick the game up to 2500 points, I would think that there is more power you can add..

1. +1 Wych raider
2. Sub out the Archon for a Dracon, toss Drazhar in there, and add Asdrubael Vect
3. Add two more RJB squads (2 blasters, 1 splinter cannon)
4. Add 3x Warp beast packs for the three elite choices
5. Add Agonizers to all the warrior squads

I think those would directly contribute to added firepower and killiness, wouldn't they? I don't know if that takes you to 2500 or not...but if it doesn't, wouldn't the nightshields all around option have virtue, as well as possibly the horrorfex idea?

I think fleshing units out beyond that would be wasteful and "adding to the defense" as you say, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this part, which is what I found interesting.

Dashofpepper wrote:
1. +1 Wych raider
2. Sub out the Archon for a Dracon, toss Drazhar in there, and add Asdrubael Vect
3. Add two more RJB squads (2 blasters, 1 splinter cannon)
4. Add 3x Warp beast packs for the three elite choices
5. Add Agonizers to all the warrior squads

1. Agreed, +1 Wych Squad is good
2. An Archon switched to a Dracon + Drahzar is a fairly minor switch. The addition of Vect is awesome, as discussed, but he happens at 2000 just as well as 2500
3. Splinter cannon? I love RJBs, I really really do. But the addition of two one shot tank hunting units does not exactly make me feel I'm getting my money's worth out of those FOS slots
4. Codex limits you to 1 pack unless you're running Wych Cult
5. As long as you're going with Assaulty Gunboats this helps - Agonisers on Lance squads is a bit like a power fist sarge in a Devestator squad or power klaw Big Mek with a flamer in a Loota squad. Yeah, technically he has made the squad more potent and killy...but it's not really in a way the squad will use too often.

I think those would directly contribute to added firepower and killiness, wouldn't they? I don't know if that takes you to 2500 or not...but if it doesn't, wouldn't the nightshields all around option have virtue, as well as possibly the horrorfex idea?

Okay, the first question is - what kills things for DE? The answer is Ravagers, Raiders, Wych Agonisers, HQs, and special/heavy weapons.

In 1850 you can field 6 troop options in Raiders with 2 heavy/special weapons each. That''s as killy as your Troop slots will ever be. Yeah, you can add little advantages but really you're already pretty much maxed out. You can also field 2-3 Wych squads with Agonisers. Yes, you can add more Wyches or additional wargear - but in the final analysis the difference between a squad of Wyches that costs 161 versus one that costs 278 is pretty minor. You already have blasters and an Agoniser, everything else is just for show. Vect is pretty nice, and does give us an extra Ravager and some actual (the only) AV 14 in our army. The extra Ravager puts some legitimate extra killing potential on the board as well as an additional legitimate threat and target.

Now, we have DE protections - and that has and will always be speed/maneuverability and target saturation. In 2500 we still have speed and maneuverability and they can't take that from us. But target saturation?

At 1500-1850 points you can put a lot of units on the table. I'm not talking models or KPs here, I'm talking units - individual targets for your opponent to have to try to kill. A big part of DE tactics is very similar to Orks insomuch as there are too many things the opponent wants to kill and not enough time or ammunition to do it before we kill them. Yeah, their (insert anti-vehicle unit of choice here) can frag a Raider easily. But what happens when 4 Raiders fly up on it and start unloading Lances, Disentegrators, splinter cannons, and possibly Wyches into it? It kills one and we kill the unit. Rinse, repeat. We fight a war of attrition and use our speed to make sure the attrition war is never fair as we overload each target with a wave of violence and too many things attacking it to be stopped.

Works pretty good I believe.

But, though we can bring *tougher* units at 2500 and though I will accept to a certain degree we can bring more units...we don't bring more units in comparison to other armies and how many more units they can bring. How well do Space Marines (in all assorted flavors) fill up their FOC at 1500-1850? How about the others? How much of a change do they see when the points go to 2500? Are they able to put more individual units on the table that can target individual enemy units? Most assuredly they are - and in a one on one battle things don't go well for the guys who feel really tough when they have an AV 10 open topped vehicle protecting them. DE are built to be a fast shooting swarm with strong assault elements - but they are only debatably out-swarming other armies at 1850-2000. At 2500 it is no longer a question - you are now trying to fight on a 1 to 1 or worse ratio with most other armies and they all have tougher units then you do.

I see what you were saying now Thor. Your right that other armies can max out things they are lacking. C Eldar for instance often have to suffer in either anti tank or anti infantry at the lower points with everything mech costing so much. At 2500 you can cover all bases.

Thor, do you not play DE at 'Ard Boyz?

When is 'ard boyz? Anyone know?

Dash, take Orks so that you can't just lose with Dark Eldar and say, "Oh but if I brought my Orks I would've won." That excuse has been used so many times it's not even funny.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Fateweaver: It hasn't been announced yet.

Its in may.

To the OP Dash, I see your pain. Usually in fixed groups a few players rise to the top; they are smarter and/or have much more experience and/or prefer to play competitively instead of just taking random stuff off a shelf.

The results that I have seen is that said top players tend to win almost every game, and the lower players either dont play enough to bridge the gap, or worse get frustrated at said 'broken unit' or 'cheesy tactic' and try to label the top player as TFG.

In your case, you may find that when you switch to dark eldar, you simply win every game with them too, and then switch to dark angels and win every game with them, ect.

As for 'ard boyz 2010, I am more concerned with the turnout of some stores versus others than what list will be the best metagame choice.

Case in point, I went to a store where 3 people showed up for 'ard boyz. Then, at the semis, 13 people showed up. Meanwhile, other locations had 80+ participants in their semis. It doesnt matter what list you bring when you show up at an 80+ person 3 game event, you need fantastic luck to score max massacres versus subpar opponents.

DevianID wrote:

Case in point, I went to a store where 3 people showed up for 'ard boyz. Then, at the semis, 13 people showed up. Meanwhile, other locations had 80+ participants in their semis. It doesnt matter what list you bring when you show up at an 80+ person 3 game event, you need fantastic luck to score max massacres versus subpar opponents.

The system is Wonky. I live in Dayton ohio, and they hold 2 ard boyz events at the two stores here, while holding none at the ones in either columbus or cincinatti.