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My preferred dice rolling app......is dice.

As long as they allowed me to use it too, or even just offered, we'd be fine

So for all you people saying that since its a computer it won't be 100% random...

Do you all own only casino dice and make sure to roll them on a flat surface, while bouncing them off the opposite wall? (like a craps table?)

Cause if you don't do that, then you aren't being 100% random either.

Tbh I wouldn't mind a dice rolling app if it was even 95% accurately random.
People breaking out there small, extra large, rounded corners dice just makes me want to call cheater.

Btw, whoever had the genius idea of making a extra large scatter die should be drug out into the street and beaten.

I wouldn't use a dice rolling app. If I wanted to play a computer game, I would.

Khornholio wrote:I wouldn't use a dice rolling app. If I wanted to play a computer game, I would.

Well yeah, of course Brock Samson would use real dice.

I'm actually writing a 40K dice roller app for the iPhone.

I plan on using it, and distributing it for free (or cheap). If someone really wants to go through the trouble of jailbreaking their Iphone and modifying the code, then I guess they care more about winning than most people do.

Obviously nobody would use it in a tournament, but I'm confident there's an audience for it for casual games.

Out of curiosity I wrote a quick dice simulator (in Java) just to see how it performs...

First of all,from Java Documentation for random:

Returned values are chosen pseudorandomly with (approximately) uniform distribution

And here the results!!!

Roll 10 dice (3 tests):

Result: 1 - 4 - 40.0%
Result: 2 - 1 - 10.0%
Result: 3 - 0 - 0.0%
Result: 4 - 4 - 40.0%
Result: 5 - 0 - 0.0%
Result: 6 - 1 - 10.0%
Doubles: 2
Longest sequence: 2

Result: 1 - 3 - 30.0%
Result: 2 - 1 - 10.0%
Result: 3 - 2 - 20.0%
Result: 4 - 2 - 20.0%
Result: 5 - 0 - 0.0%
Result: 6 - 2 - 20.0%
Doubles: 1
Longest sequence: 2

Result: 1 - 0 - 0.0%
Result: 2 - 3 - 30.0%
Result: 3 - 4 - 40.0%
Result: 4 - 1 - 10.0%
Result: 5 - 0 - 0.0%
Result: 6 - 2 - 20.0%
Doubles: 2
Longest sequence: 2

Rolling 100:

Result: 1 - 18 - 18.0%
Result: 2 - 22 - 22.0%
Result: 3 - 13 - 13.0%
Result: 4 - 13 - 13.0%
Result: 5 - 16 - 16.0%
Result: 6 - 18 - 18.0%
Doubles: 10
Longest sequence: 3

Result: 1 - 13 - 13.0%
Result: 2 - 17 - 17.0%
Result: 3 - 20 - 20.0%
Result: 4 - 16 - 16.0%
Result: 5 - 16 - 16.0%
Result: 6 - 18 - 18.0%
Doubles: 22
Longest sequence: 5

Result: 1 - 15 - 15.0%
Result: 2 - 17 - 17.0%
Result: 3 - 14 - 14.0%
Result: 4 - 24 - 24.0%
Result: 5 - 10 - 10.0%
Result: 6 - 20 - 20.0%
Doubles: 12
Longest sequence: 4

Rolling 38 (random non-10power number)

Result: 1 - 8 - 21.052631578947366%
Result: 2 - 10 - 26.31578947368421%
Result: 3 - 8 - 21.052631578947366%
Result: 4 - 4 - 10.526315789473683%
Result: 5 - 5 - 13.157894736842104%
Result: 6 - 3 - 7.894736842105263%
Doubles: 6
Longest sequence: 3

Result: 1 - 9 - 23.684210526315788%
Result: 2 - 4 - 10.526315789473683%
Result: 3 - 6 - 15.789473684210526%
Result: 4 - 2 - 5.263157894736842%
Result: 5 - 8 - 21.052631578947366%
Result: 6 - 9 - 23.684210526315788%
Doubles: 5
Longest sequence: 3

Result: 1 - 5 - 13.157894736842104%
Result: 2 - 4 - 10.526315789473683%
Result: 3 - 6 - 15.789473684210526%
Result: 4 - 5 - 13.157894736842104%
Result: 5 - 5 - 13.157894736842104%
Result: 6 - 13 - 34.21052631578947%
Doubles: 10
Longest sequence: 2


Explanation:

Doubles = number of pairs in the sequence (i.e 1 2 3 3 3 4) = 2 pairs
Longest sequence= longest sequence of equal numbers (i.e. 1 2 3 4 4 4 4 4 5 6) = 5

Bye,

I would not allow a die rolling app for several reasons.

The first and most obvious reason is that I believe it’s relatively easy to hack a die rolling app and disseminate such an app through a group of friends… especially in preparation for a tournament. The code behind of these apps is not complex and given a bit of time I’m certain that I (I’m a professional web developer) would have little trouble modifying the app. If I can do it, others can do it.

The second and larger reason is practical. While it may seem as if it speeds up the game, I doubt it actually would. Image, for example, a 10-man tactical marine squad with a melta gun, flamer, sergeant with plasma pistol, an attached special character with a bolt pistol and BS 5. I tend to think the prospect of ACTUALLY inputting that information is time consuming and prone to error. What’s more, I’m not really interested in having my opponent make adjustments to the app info between EVERY squad and vehicle that fires and after every casualty he takes.

From a practical perspective, actual die rolling is far easier.

Lastly, I believe it is easier to cheat through the use of a device similar to an iphone by simply adding dice without an opponent knowing. This could happen with regular dice as well but, if an opponent is supposed to roll 30 dice and he states “20 hits” but has 14 dice sitting in his pile of misses, I can identify and address such an issue. Unless I watch my opponent input his number of dice to be rolled every time (something I’m not interested in doing across a 4’ table”) it’s far too east to slip additional dice in and not get caught.

Dice rolling apps are an answer to a problem than never existed.

yakface wrote:
I see this kind of 'anti-cheating' paranoia stuff tossed around so frequently online that it really makes me wonder if my mentality of gaming is completely removed from most gamers.

While I personally really enjoy rolling dice in my games, if my opponent wanted to use a dice rolling app and was willing to allow me to use it on my rolls as well (which is only fair, even though I'd likely never actually take him up on it and use it during the game), then why the heck should I, or anyone else try to deny them from using a tool that would help them enjoy their hobby more?


IMHO, the idea of worrying about whether or not someone may be cheating you, and then putting actions in place to combat this fear, is BY FAR, a much worse quality in gaming than actual cheaters cheating.

I mean, if someone really wants to cheat, then not letting them use a dice-rolling app isn't going to stop them. They're going to alter their dice, learn how to roll funny, cheat their range measurements, fudge their models when you're not looking, etc, etc, etc.

There a thousand ways to cheat in this hobby, but at the end of the day if someone beats you by cheating, so what? Even in the hardest hardcore tournaments, the prizes are almost always just MORE product for the game. So at the end of the day really what have you lost if you've lost a game to purported 'cheater'? Not much.

So IMHO, if a cheater wants to beat me with cheating, then by all means let him go ahead and do it. Congratulations, he's won a game of 40K and I've lost a game of 40K...I still go home and enjoy my life.

In fact, I'll even play that cheater over and over again, losing every time, but I'll continue to struggle like the epic generals in stories vastly outnumbered and outgunned, but knowing that when I do pull off a win, the glory will be all the greater!


Now, I'm not saying I want to play against cheaters, rather far from it. I love to play balanced, tight games and I always want to win. But I'll be damned if I let the idea that someone may be cheating creep into my head and start to ruin my hobby experience...I don't care how high the stakes of the game are.

The moment I start to think in the middle of a game 'hey, I wonder if this guy is cheating me with loaded dice' is the day I personally feel I need to put away my miniatures and get another hobby because I've lost sight of what I'm actually supposed to be doing with this hobby, which is having fun playing a game.


Who knows, maybe I've been cheated in the past and maybe I'll end up being cheated in the future but I will never, ever even consider for one moment that my opponent might be cheating me and let it ruin my game. If that's the level they need to sink to in order to win a game of Toy Soldiers, then god-bless them.

But for me, I'm just going to keep playing my game and enjoying myself and doing the best I can within the things I can actually control in order to win my game.


So yeah, as far as I'm concerned, bring on those dice rolling apps, or anything else you want to use that makes your hobby more enjoyable! I'll keep rolling my dice, but whatever floats your boat is fine with me.

QFET (E = Extreme, that's how true it is)

The game is about Dice.

If you don't want to do what you have to to paly the game, then you might as well just point at them with a stick and make the pew pew noises and drive around with the little tanks.

Roll the darn dice, call it a day. Some tool that would go to that extreme would just as soon play the game on a computer, because the minis are too inconvenient to buy.

Mini games aren't for you, then. go play checkers.

Grot 6 wrote:The game is about Dice.

If you don't want to do what you have to to paly the game, then you might as well just point at them with a stick and make the pew pew noises and drive around with the little tanks.

Roll the darn dice, call it a day. Some tool that would go to that extreme would just as soon play the game on a computer, because the minis are too inconvenient to buy.

Mini games aren't for you, then. go play checkers.

So you are saying people that want to use dice apps are "tools" and would rather play it on computer? Pretty harsh generalization there. So because my friend wants to use a dice app in DnD we should kick him out and tell him to go play it on the computer (or go play checkers).

At first I thought this thread was kind of funny but now it's just another sad example of people ruining other's fun for no reason.

No.

Die rolling apps are not truly random and can be modified by cheaters.

Kirika wrote:No.

Die rolling apps are not truly random and can be modified by cheaters.

See all the previous posts about non-casino dice and computer generated numbers please.

I figure if somebody wants to try out their new toy (app) then by all means.

But really, the feel and sound of handfuls of dice are an integral part of the game, for me. I'd miss it. No speakerphone enabled app is going to sound like those 20 d6s hitting the table!

Also with a dice bag, you're never screwed when the batteries die in the middle of a tourney.

Pipboy101 wrote:Well, they could always copy the R2D2 dice roller that came with the Star Wars Trival Pursuit game.

Now if you hate the idea of an app doing dice rolls, you could always have played against a guy that used the pop-o-matic off of a Trouble game.

"I need to roll twenty dice rolls for my bolters. HEHehe..."

Pop! "Two"
Pop! "Five"
Pop! "Six"
Pop! "Four"
Pop! "One"
Pop! "Two"
Pop! "Three"
Pop! "Five"
Pop! "Five"
Pop! "One"
etc...

OMFG! WTF! I would take a phone app over that

You sir have just won the Internet.
Fell off my chair laughing.
I am going to do this in my next game.
Thankyou.
As for the topic. KEEP DICE.

If you want to play a computer game, play a computer game. If you want to play a tabletop game play a table top games.

Either way I think cell phones should be banned from the play area, to allow people to focus on the game.

CrazyThang wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:The game is about Dice.

If you don't want to do what you have to to paly the game, then you might as well just point at them with a stick and make the pew pew noises and drive around with the little tanks.

Roll the darn dice, call it a day. Some tool that would go to that extreme would just as soon play the game on a computer, because the minis are too inconvenient to buy.

Mini games aren't for you, then. go play checkers.

So you are saying people that want to use dice apps are "tools" and would rather play it on computer? Pretty harsh generalization there. So because my friend wants to use a dice app in DnD we should kick him out and tell him to go play it on the computer (or go play checkers).

At first I thought this thread was kind of funny but now it's just another sad example of people ruining other's fun for no reason.

Think what you want to, I know what I wrote, and no where in my post did I mention your "Friend".

How do you see insisting on playing a dice game with dice is ruining someone else fun?

By the Way since you want to ride that train, I recently saw a "New and Improved" group of people playing a game of D and D game run strictly with computers. Was that D and D? NO. That was a bunch of cats sitting around looking at screens.... PLAYING A VIDEO GAME.

(and for the record, 4th edition is not Dungeons and Dragons, anymore. I don't know what it is, but is isn't the Dungeons and Dragons.)

Thier interaction was about as enjoyable to watch as watching a LAN party, so before you come in here lambasting someone you need to step off and keep your cheap potshot to yourself.

The game is about dice. Dice came with the game, you didn't get some highspeed CD/DVD/computer in your box of minis, you got ...dice.

It's bad enough that we have to even put up with people pulling out thier cell phones to talk to some other fool on the other end about absolutly nothing mid turn, telling you to "Hold on a minute...". NOW we get someone who brings in thier coveted iphone or whatever and throws it down on the table and insists that his device is going to give a random roll, and that you can trust his win when tries to tell you that all of his rolls were above ground, and absolutly positively legit?

Number 1, You are rude and obnoxious if you pull a phone out in mid turn and tell me to, "Hold on a minute, I have to take this.." thereby screwing up the whole turn sequence, your concentration, and thereby the game. (yeah, that is a real thing that has happened)

Number 2, You are imposing some completly different element to a game that is already been established in a setting where people interact with dice, (the dice being the unifying factor.)

Number 3, the wins won like this are tainted, however and whatever universe you live in for the simple fact that you threw in an element of uncertanty in the device itself.
(How do I know that he didn't adjust the device givng his "rolls" a 2% increase in the results, or that his "Rolls" were absolutly random?)

You pull out a high speed computer do hicky and all of the sudden you have thrown a completly different dynamic into the game. It isn't a tabletop minis game, anymore. Its a computer game.

I see it as someone who pulls out something foreign to the game and starts using it, therby leaving everyone standing around with both a WTF look on thier face, but even worse, to wonder if the results coming out of the device are even legitimate.
Either way You are IMPOSING something that wasn't and isn't part of the metagame. You are pushing something on people that they were not even expecting, then you can sit there, win with the thing and see the sour grapes you sow with your game group as people start either getting one for themselves, or they leave to go find another group.

Or...
The third alternative comes with a face full of fist, your device being thrown at the nearest wall and impending violence and doom.


All in all though, the whole gaming dynamic is forever changed and your going to see a radical change for the worse in your game group. If it stays together, great, bully on them, but it still isn't a game with dice and miniatures anymore...

It is a computer game, played on the table with miniatures.

might as well be a LAN party.

Hmm, I like using dice but if my opponent wanted to use an app I guess I wouldn't object. I like the idea of the app saying x to hit, x to wound, x to save but the example posted about various weapons and values would be a problem. Here's another with my vet IG. Regular sarge with pistol, 3 plasma, 4 lasgun, and an AC. Different strengths as well as number of hits.

I certainly hope GW doesn't get this in their head to make a random generator.

I have one of the applications for my phone but I only plan to use the scatter part of it as you only need to get your opponent to place it anywhere near the target unit (by getting them to place it in any direction they wish you can avoid being called a cheat) then touch the screen. A lot easier to sort out where the scatter goes...

Mick

The problem with a dice rolling program is that it's just as easy to write a loaded one as it is to write an unloaded one.

I'm going to guess that using the default random number generator on an iPod ends up with statistical consistency on par with custom Chessex dice. A person could probably get good statistical consistency if they knew what they were doing and waded through all of the nice randomness metrics and good generator systems. But I have no confidence that Jo or Joe Hacker who's paid out $100 for an Apple license is going to bother to look up how to generate random numbers in a nice manner. And if you were concerned that the code was bad, how could you even tell?

I think there'd be a more compelling argument for dice rolling applications for something like Battletech, but the Battletech programs also tend to be all-in-one dice rolling and damage application programs. Otherwise, dice rollers are just too much hassle compared to bringing a few bags of dice.

Grot 6 wrote:The game is about Dice.

s.

I thought the game was about the miniatures?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kirika wrote:No.

Die rolling apps are not truly random and can be modified by cheaters.

Dice rolling apps are for all intents and purposes random. You are obviously not a math or computer science major. All the random number generators in major computer languages are random as far as a human being can tell. While obviously based on an algorithm the results do approximate the randomness of rolling dice.

Now to your other point. And this is really the problem but not just that they can be modified but you do not know who made them in the first place. So no I would not allow someone to use their own random number generator. Mostly because I think it would take longer than just rolling and secondly because I wouldn't trust someone I didn't know not to be cheating. Of course they could just use loaded dice

brettz123 wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:The game is about Dice.

s.

I thought the game was about the miniatures?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kirika wrote:No.

Die rolling apps are not truly random and can be modified by cheaters.

Dice rolling apps are for all intents and purposes random. You are obviously not a math or computer science major. All the random number generators in major computer languages are random as far as a human being can tell. While obviously based on an algorithm the results do approximate the randomness of rolling dice.

Now to your other point. And this is really the problem but not just that they can be modified but you do not know who made them in the first place. So no I would not allow someone to use their own random number generator. Mostly because I think it would take longer than just rolling and secondly because I wouldn't trust someone I didn't know not to be cheating. Of course they could just use loaded dice

Thats what you get for thinking.
As I said, add a 2% to the variable and call it a day see how that does ya.

As long as everyone used the same app, than yes.

No, I wouldn’t want one to be used in any game I was playing. Not because of the possibility of someone cheating by messing about with the application. But because it’s more fun seeing yours opponent face as he rolls the complete opposite to what they wants, or see them praying to the dice gods for that double six they need to win the game. Most games you play that have miniatures that have taken you hours/days/months or years to paint, should use dice to play imo.

Grot 6 wrote:

CrazyThang wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:The game is about Dice.

If you don't want to do what you have to to paly the game, then you might as well just point at them with a stick and make the pew pew noises and drive around with the little tanks.

Roll the darn dice, call it a day. Some tool that would go to that extreme would just as soon play the game on a computer, because the minis are too inconvenient to buy.

Mini games aren't for you, then. go play checkers.

So you are saying people that want to use dice apps are "tools" and would rather play it on computer? Pretty harsh generalization there. So because my friend wants to use a dice app in DnD we should kick him out and tell him to go play it on the computer (or go play checkers).

At first I thought this thread was kind of funny but now it's just another sad example of people ruining other's fun for no reason.

Think what you want to, I know what I wrote, and no where in my post did I mention your "Friend".

How do you see insisting on playing a dice game with dice is ruining someone else fun?

By the Way since you want to ride that train, I recently saw a "New and Improved" group of people playing a game of D and D game run strictly with computers. Was that D and D? NO. That was a bunch of cats sitting around looking at screens.... PLAYING A VIDEO GAME.

(and for the record, 4th edition is not Dungeons and Dragons, anymore. I don't know what it is, but is isn't the Dungeons and Dragons.)

Thier interaction was about as enjoyable to watch as watching a LAN party, so before you come in here lambasting someone you need to step off and keep your cheap potshot to yourself.

The game is about dice. Dice came with the game, you didn't get some highspeed CD/DVD/computer in your box of minis, you got ...dice.

It's bad enough that we have to even put up with people pulling out thier cell phones to talk to some other fool on the other end about absolutly nothing mid turn, telling you to "Hold on a minute...". NOW we get someone who brings in thier coveted iphone or whatever and throws it down on the table and insists that his device is going to give a random roll, and that you can trust his win when tries to tell you that all of his rolls were above ground, and absolutly positively legit?

Number 1, You are rude and obnoxious if you pull a phone out in mid turn and tell me to, "Hold on a minute, I have to take this.." thereby screwing up the whole turn sequence, your concentration, and thereby the game. (yeah, that is a real thing that has happened)

Number 2, You are imposing some completly different element to a game that is already been established in a setting where people interact with dice, (the dice being the unifying factor.)

Number 3, the wins won like this are tainted, however and whatever universe you live in for the simple fact that you threw in an element of uncertanty in the device itself.
(How do I know that he didn't adjust the device givng his "rolls" a 2% increase in the results, or that his "Rolls" were absolutly random?)

You pull out a high speed computer do hicky and all of the sudden you have thrown a completly different dynamic into the game. It isn't a tabletop minis game, anymore. Its a computer game.

I see it as someone who pulls out something foreign to the game and starts using it, therby leaving everyone standing around with both a WTF look on thier face, but even worse, to wonder if the results coming out of the device are even legitimate.
Either way You are IMPOSING something that wasn't and isn't part of the metagame. You are pushing something on people that they were not even expecting, then you can sit there, win with the thing and see the sour grapes you sow with your game group as people start either getting one for themselves, or they leave to go find another group.

Or...
The third alternative comes with a face full of fist, your device being thrown at the nearest wall and impending violence and doom.


All in all though, the whole gaming dynamic is forever changed and your going to see a radical change for the worse in your game group. If it stays together, great, bully on them, but it still isn't a game with dice and miniatures anymore...

It is a computer game, played on the table with miniatures.

might as well be a LAN party.

You seem to be missing my point. Saying someone using a dice app shouldn't be playing is like saying someone who uses a laptop mousepad instead of a regular mouse shouldn't be playing a computer game. I too prefer actual dice and I wouldn't use a dice app but I'm not going to say "Sorry can't play with you because of your lack of dice." And also: this is a game, intended to be FUN for both players. IMO someone refusing to play with someone because of a dice app is just ruining someone's fun for no real reason. Which brings me to this point: everyone who screams "cheater" at the first sign of a cell phone really really needs to get their priorities together and realise their little plastic men are not really fighting for the fate of the universe and that not every game is a tournament game (unless all you play is tournaments of course :p )

lixulana wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Don't load all 36 - load 6. This gives a clear statistical advantage for slightly "lucky" results, but isn't so large that the opponent would notice a whole field of 6s.

in the course of what you use in warhammer gaffing the dice would be more effective and less detectable than a load.

besically it breaks down to casinos go to all this trouble so they dont get cheated because they are already going to win so they dont care about making it more in their favor than it already is.

Cheaters get greedy, which makes them do obvious, dumb things. Doing something small for a 5% net swing would be the best cheat. For example, suppose I fix my dice like this:
1. 16.7%
2. 13.7% (-3%)
3. 16.7%
4. 16.7%
5. 19.7% (+3%)
6. 16.7%
This is what I'm talking about not getting greedy by loading the 6 and drilling the 1 (or gaffing for 6s).

My net odds become:
2+. 83.3%
3+. 69.7% (+3%)
4+. 53.0% (+3%)
5+. 36.3% (+3%)
6+. 16.7%
That's a nice little bump for the most common 3+, 4+, & 5+ tests, and not too painful for Ld tests (a lot of the 2 and 5s will cancel each other out).

As players focus heavily on 6s and 1s, I'll bet the vast majority of player's wouldn't ever notice, and I could probably run these dice for the entire block of 36. I probably wouldn't need any "fair" dice because I'd still be getting my fair share of 1s, and not more than my fair share of 6s.


Casinos want perfect dice, because the more perfectly fair they are, the more they win. If there were a pattern, the player could exploit it faster than the house.
____

yakface wrote: I see this kind of 'anti-cheating' paranoia stuff tossed around so frequently online that it really makes me wonder if my mentality of gaming is completely removed from most gamers.

There a thousand ways to cheat in this hobby, but at the end of the day if someone beats you by cheating, so what? Even in the hardest hardcore tournaments, the prizes are almost always just MORE product for the game. So at the end of the day really what have you lost if you've lost a game to purported 'cheater'? Not much.

The issue with dice cheating is that it's often not obvious, whereas fudging movement is more obvious.

If someone cheats for prizes with monetary value, then that's stealing from the people who didn't cheat. That's really the same as taking a dollar out of everybody's wallet, or stealing the price out of the real winner's car after the event. You don't have a problem with that?


I default to "strict" play, so when I've played against "cheaters", I annoyed me until I learned that they just play differently: Fast and loose. When they do that stuff, I just do it more. They take an inch, I take 2 or 3. Sometimes, I didn't even pretend to measure it, and just moved models. It's a goofy way to play, and a good break from strict play.

Of course, some guys don't like it when you play like they do, and will ask to play more strictly. I'm OK with that, too.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is "gaffing" a die, and how does it differ from loading a die?

"IMO someone refusing to play with someone because of a dice app is just ruining someone's fun for no real reason. Which brings me to this point: everyone who screams "cheater" at the first sign of a cell phone really really needs to get their priorities together and realise their little plastic men are not really fighting for the fate of the universe and that not every game is a tournament game (unless all you play is tournaments of course :p ) "


Are you serious? Tell me that you are joking.

I honestly do not understand your opinion.

-My Fantasy box set, 40K box set, each and every spinoff game every book, every download, and each and every codex's mention NOTHING about dice applications. They are not part of the game.

-People who pull out cell phones at the table, tell you to "Hold on a minute, I gotta take this..." are committing party fouls and a BS flag is thrown on the play.
and in terms of interruption, its outright rude and they need thier chops busted for being inconsiderate and interrupting the game.
as a matter of fact, Mr or Miss Party Foul need to leave the stupid cell phone in the car and pay attention to the game at hand.

- No where in my postings did I call people cheater. I call them Tool, because it isn't even a question of pulling out something that is game changing and thinking that you are going to impose something like this on the gaming group as a whole without even asking. As well as that, I said that thier so called "Rolls" are suspect.
Bottom line up front- THAT IS the point.... YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY IDEA IF THE "ROLLS" ARE LEGITAMATE.

-You come to a table with your dice, templates, miniatures, and army list. I show up with a calculater, a laptop, a bunch of cardstock "miniatures", and a pen and a lazer pointer.
You actually let me play you, and I win. Are you seriously going to tell me that that would be classified as a "good" game? That you were playing a "Good" player?
You would be playing a tool. pure and simple, you would be playing TFG.

News flash... No. Not only am I showing up with all sorts of proxies, claiming that they are so's and so and what's a what, I don't even have real rolls on the dice, so you don't even have an equal chance. Some sockmonkey shows up like that, you need to laugh them out of the room.

If you let substitutions like dice applications fly, then why not let substitutions of mini's fly, as well?
Why not roll up to your table with cardboard cutouts of a tank company, or a Gaunt swarm?
How about when I ride in with a styro box and call it a titan?

Why won't you play me? Aren't you ruining MY fun?

Grot 6 wrote:"IMO someone refusing to play with someone because of a dice app is just ruining someone's fun for no real reason. Which brings me to this point: everyone who screams "cheater" at the first sign of a cell phone really really needs to get their priorities together and realise their little plastic men are not really fighting for the fate of the universe and that not every game is a tournament game (unless all you play is tournaments of course :p ) "


Are you serious? Tell me that you are joking.

I honestly do not understand your opinion.

-My Fantasy box set, 40K box set, each and every spinoff game every book, every download, and each and every codex's mention NOTHING about dice applications. They are not part of the game.

-People who pull out cell phones at the table, tell you to "Hold on a minute, I gotta take this..." are committing party fouls and a BS flag is thrown on the play.
and in terms of interruption, its outright rude and they need thier chops busted for being inconsiderate and interrupting the game.
as a matter of fact, Mr or Miss Party Foul need to leave the stupid cell phone in the car and pay attention to the game at hand.

- No where in my postings did I call people cheater. I call them Tool, because it isn't even a question of pulling out something that is game changing and thinking that you are going to impose something like this on the gaming group as a whole without even asking. As well as that, I said that thier so called "Rolls" are suspect.
Bottom line up front- THAT IS the point.... YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY IDEA IF THE "ROLLS" ARE LEGITAMATE.

-You come to a table with your dice, templates, miniatures, and army list. I show up with a calculater, a laptop, a bunch of cardstock "miniatures", and a pen and a lazer pointer.
You actually let me play you, and I win. Are you seriously going to tell me that that would be classified as a "good" game? That you were playing a "Good" player?
You would be playing a tool. pure and simple, you would be playing TFG.

News flash... No. Not only am I showing up with all sorts of proxies, claiming that they are so's and so and what's a what, I don't even have real rolls on the dice, so you don't even have an equal chance. Some sockmonkey shows up like that, you need to laugh them out of the room.

If you let substitutions like dice applications fly, then why not let substitutions of mini's fly, as well?
Why not roll up to your table with cardboard cutouts of a tank company, or a Gaunt swarm?
How about when I ride in with a styro box and call it a titan?

Why won't you play me? Aren't you ruining MY fun?

I'd play you as long as we had fun.

Also: "No where in my postings did I call people cheater." That was not directed at you, rather all the people who are in-fact saying if you have a phone you are automatically cheating.

Oh also, I hope the person with the phone picks it up. Life doesn't stop for games, who knows what the call could be.

Grot 6 wrote:"IMO someone refusing to play with someone because of a dice app is just ruining someone's fun for no real reason. Which brings me to this point: everyone who screams "cheater" at the first sign of a cell phone really really needs to get their priorities together and realise their little plastic men are not really fighting for the fate of the universe and that not every game is a tournament game (unless all you play is tournaments of course :p ) "


Are you serious? Tell me that you are joking.

I honestly do not understand your opinion.

[rant]

Aren't you ruining MY fun?

If you play against somebody who is cheating, the fact that they cheat with a dice roller app, by moving their miniatures and extra 1/2" when you aren't watching closely, or bring weighted dice doesn't really matter. If they want to cheat, they will. Its a GAME, if people cheating bothers you, don't play with those people.

Die rollers do not make somebody a cheater. It is a tool to roll dice. Don't claim that people that want to roll the 40 lasgun shots all at once without having to roll and count out all the dice, losing three on the floor and two ending up in crevices so they have to be re-rolled are doing so only to gain an advantage; they probably want to save time. They probably want to do it to make the game more fun.

If you hate that, you're entitled to that opinion, but don't start claiming that somebody rolling random numbers with something that is more-than-likely MORE random than physical dice ruins the game and destroys all the fun involved. I bet that somebody that brings a die roller wants to use it to speed things along, not to cheat, and if you ask them to roll real dice, they will more than likely agree. Everyone I know that likes the die rollers will gladly roll dice, they just prefer to roll 40 at once instead because it goes WAY faster.

I certainly would doubt the integrity of dice my opponent brought to the game MORE than a die roller app if my opponent was willing to let me use it for my rolls too.