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AJCarrington wrote:Point taken, though I think your comments re time (or lack thereof) required to create an electronic roster (ie form fields in a savable PDF) is a more likely reason.

For the record, I need to make a fillable form and the recent versions of Adobe Acrobat Pro (Got mine with CS 4, which I needed for a few projects and I'd guess someone at GW has access to this...) make adding form fields really idiotically simple. Making them work right* can be a bit trickier, but basic fill-out forms are incredibly simple to do.

* The 'wizard' can sometimes make mistakes, you may need to manually adjust tab order, etc.

To be honest, as I've heard GW uses army builder for some events (maybe semi-officially?) it would be an act of genius if they made some sort of deal with Wolf Lair and published official data files that were kept current. I.E. the new data file comes out within a week or two of any Codex release. This would solve a few issues:

* An official and up-to-date list would be the preferred one, and would be effectively canon.
* Creating the data files would probably help point out some Codex design flaws as the datafile editor would have to run ambiguous statements by the writer.
* GW would gain a lot of control over the format and content of the lists (for example, limiting descriptive text to 'See page XX for details') to keep people in a Codex buying mood. the current people essentially do so out of fear of prosecution.

I don't see this as likely, though. The Studio seems to have trouble sticking to these kind of things, and toiling on data files seems like 'notfun' work compared to writing new books. After all, the IAL/AoI/EoI fulfilled most of these goals and was theoretically a profit stream.

I wouldn't use it, personally. I have a simple excel spreadsheet and laminated reference sheets that get the job done. If there is a rule that needs looking up, I'm pretty familiar with my 2 codexes.

Hopefully, this does help the new players.

Saldiven wrote:Personally, the reason I believe that GW has never seriously attempted to compete with LW's Army Builder is because GW is not interested in devoting the time and effort into such a piece of software's creation and support. GW's previous attempts at such a piece of software show their lack of dedication towards such an endeavor.

Face it, with the lackluster manner in which GW even provides FAQ and playtesting for their game products, can we legitimately expect them to suddenly be interested in creating and maintaining a software system and keeping an updated data file set for all of their army books?

I actually liked IAL.

Tom Kirby has said that there will be an army roster program/tool on the website for people to build armies with.

I'm holding my breath on that one......

Games Workshop wrote:The Warhammer 40,000 Army Roster

Awesome, did GW trademark the phrase "Army Roster"?

I dunno John, did you trademark the phrase "Overused Sarcastic Response"?
I'd assume it's just because they tend to do that with *anything* they put up on their site.

loki old fart wrote:They ought to make a pad available at the GW stores.
Could be nice seller

these look a lot like a quick redo of a force listing pad they put out a few years ago.

I think I have one somewhere.

regardless this is kind of nifty. Think I'll be printing a few this weekend.

Bunker wrote:Looks mighty handy, I just wish there wasn't so much going on in the background. A simple black and white roster sheet to fill out would be so much lighter on my ink budget

there is black and white printing option for a reason

Fresh wrote:there is black and white printing option for a reason

I suspect he was referring more to the almost solid dark background, rather than the colour...

Yeah. That sheet ain't printer friendly.

I'll stick to Excel for all my building of armies needs (and not, of course, Army Builder needs, as that would be a breach of a trademark... or something).

I will continue to use Army Builder for 40k/FB.

Just as I have done for 10+ years.

These forms are a huge amount of work, and you are very likely to make a transcribing error.

Well, I have the Program Which Shall Not Be Named, and I use it for all my theorycrafting, but I honestly could see myself using these on an everyday basis. The ArmyBui.... err, Program tends to have more information than I need on it. Armies that I'm not as familar with I'll probably still use it, but stuff I've been playing for a while I'm definitely using these sheets. I can probably crank out an IG list faster writing it down than I can through any sort of computer-assisted means.

daedalus wrote:Well, I have the Program Which Shall Not Be Named, and I use it for all my theorycrafting, but I honestly could see myself using these on an everyday basis. The ArmyBui.... err, Program tends to have more information than I need on it. Armies that I'm not as familar with I'll probably still use it, but stuff I've been playing for a while I'm definitely using these sheets. I can probably crank out an IG list faster writing it down than I can through any sort of computer-assisted means.

While I wouldn't speak for them, Wolf Lair probably doesn't mind you naming their product... They just don't want it made into a generic term like Xerox, Kleenex or Jello.

I thing these sheets are a great idea in theory, but the layout kind of sucks, and the lack of interactivity is a deal breaker. I'll stick with my spreadsheet for now. Maybe convert it to do some export as .pdf stuff.

Now people can't give the excuse for having napkin army lists or random sheets of looseleaf with their math homework on the other side. FINALLY!

I have had mine posted for download for ages now...

1000x better and it's a form that you can fill in on your computer before you print it. PDF... none of that Word or Excel stuff.

http://pitoftheoni.blogspot.com/2009/11/new-army-sheet-best-one-yet.html

GW needs to take a lesson from me on making these or pay me to do it for them.

I like the Fantasy layout but the 40k not so much.

General Hobbs wrote:

Saldiven wrote:Personally, the reason I believe that GW has never seriously attempted to compete with LW's Army Builder is because GW is not interested in devoting the time and effort into such a piece of software's creation and support. GW's previous attempts at such a piece of software show their lack of dedication towards such an endeavor.

Face it, with the lackluster manner in which GW even provides FAQ and playtesting for their game products, can we legitimately expect them to suddenly be interested in creating and maintaining a software system and keeping an updated data file set for all of their army books?

I actually liked IAL.

Tom Kirby has said that there will be an army roster program/tool on the website for people to build armies with.

I'm holding my breath on that one......

Oh, I wasn't saying that the product was bad, I was just saying that it wasn't supported as well as AB is.

daedalus wrote:Well, I have the Program Which Shall Not Be Named, and I use it for all my theorycrafting, but I honestly could see myself using these on an everyday basis. The ArmyBui.... err, Program tends to have more information than I need on it. Armies that I'm not as familar with I'll probably still use it, but stuff I've been playing for a while I'm definitely using these sheets. I can probably crank out an IG list faster writing it down than I can through any sort of computer-assisted means.

some of you guys really should think about laying off on throwing your toys before you break a window.

This is old news by now, get over it.

Balance wrote:

daedalus wrote:Well, I have the Program Which Shall Not Be Named, and I use it for all my theorycrafting, but I honestly could see myself using these on an everyday basis. The ArmyBui.... err, Program tends to have more information than I need on it. Armies that I'm not as familar with I'll probably still use it, but stuff I've been playing for a while I'm definitely using these sheets. I can probably crank out an IG list faster writing it down than I can through any sort of computer-assisted means.

While I wouldn't speak for them, Wolf Lair probably doesn't mind you naming their product... They just don't want it made into a generic term like Xerox, Kleenex or Jello.

People are purposely editing themselves to be asshats Balance.

They KNOW they are alright to say Army Builder when they talk about the program Army Builder. They'd just rather keep throwing their toys and acting like asshats.

I still love how C&D's are treated with the same venom as a police raid on some persons house. Man, you people need to get out more.

Er, time for the "Calm Down" warning again.

Throwing insults into the air, trying to keep them 'general' and 'non-specific', even though it is painfully obvious what's going on?

Stop, please.

Discuss the issue at hand (whatever that may be) at leave everything else out.

Fateweaver wrote:People are purposely editing themselves to be asshats Balance.

They KNOW they are alright to say A*** B****** when they talk about the program A*** B*******. They'd just rather keep throwing their toys and acting like asshats.

I still love how C&D's are treated with the same venom as a police raid on some persons house. Man, you people need to get out more.

Wait? It is? Are you sure, because the letter that I read said that they need to filter out improper uses of the term, and it came from a lawyer!!! I'm not a lawyer so I don't know what improper uses of the trademark might be. PP's response was to filter out all references to the word, and since they are a responsible company wanting to be sure they operate in the fullest extent of the law, I can only assume they did the right thing. Since you are surely a lawyer to be able to use such impressive words as 'asshats' and 'persons' then I can only assume you'll be able to tell me when I can and can't use their words!!!

P.S. I censored your post when I quoted it because I don't want anyone getting mad at me because my post might contain bad words!

daedalus... /clap buddy, fine job indeed =)

daedalus wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:People are purposely editing themselves to be asshats Balance.

They KNOW they are alright to say A*** B****** when they talk about the program A*** B*******. They'd just rather keep throwing their toys and acting like asshats.

I still love how C&D's are treated with the same venom as a police raid on some persons house. Man, you people need to get out more.

Wait? It is? Are you sure, because the letter that I read said that they need to filter out improper uses of the term, and it came from a lawyer!!! I'm not a lawyer so I don't know what improper uses of the trademark might be. PP's response was to filter out all references to the word, and since they are a responsible company wanting to be sure they operate in the fullest extent of the law, I can only assume they did the right thing. Since you are surely a lawyer to be able to use such impressive words as 'asshats' and 'persons' then I can only assume you'll be able to tell me when I can and can't use their words!!!

P.S. I censored your post when I quoted it because I don't want anyone getting mad at me because my post might contain bad words!

Daedalus...you do realize that companies(like Privateer Press) maintain teams of lawyers who manage their trademarks, etc yes?

There's no excuse for their immature behavior. Especially not "well, the letter was from a lawyer so Privateer can't have understood the legalese!".

Alpharius wrote:Er, time for the "Calm Down" warning again.

Throwing insults into the air, trying to keep them 'general' and 'non-specific', even though it is painfully obvious what's going on?

Stop, please.

Discuss the issue at hand (whatever that may be) at leave everything else out.

But thirteen more pages of forum dregs throwing their toys is ok AMIRITE?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Neconilis wrote:daedalus... /clap buddy, fine job indeed =)

no, it wasn't. It was some of the most pathetic trolling that has been trotted out on this forum since, well, yesterday.

Kanluwen wrote:
Daedalus...you do realize that companies(like Privateer Press) maintain teams of lawyers who manage their trademarks, etc yes?

There's no excuse for their immature behavior. Especially not "well, the letter was from a lawyer so Privateer can't have understood the legalese!".

That's exactly what I'm trying to say! They're a company who must have at least as many lawyers as Lone Wolf has, so I'm assuming automatically that they must have just as much sound legal advice. Since they get all this sound legal advice, then the action they took MUST be the most appropriate one for the situation. I, being neither a lawyer nor one pretends from looking at wikipedia pages, have neither legal experience nor a legal team, thus I can only assume that the only responsible way I have of being sure is by following PP's response.

Kurgash wrote:Now people can't give the excuse for having napkin army lists or random sheets of looseleaf with their math homework on the other side. FINALLY!

Don't forget your official GW Printer Paper w/Imperial Letterhead! And official GW Pen and Pencil set! These are clearly superior to the Official GW Napkin or Official GW Looseleaf w/Math Homework

So I thought about a retort to "forum dregs", but then I realized I finally found someone who had a low enough signal-to-noise ratio that I could try out the ignore button and not actually miss anything. Back to Topic: I like the sheets, but I don't think it was a response to anything Lone Wolf did or didn't do. These sheets do not really overlap much with what the true added value of Army Builder is. If they released an army creation tool on the other hand... well, that would be interesting.

daedalus wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:People are purposely editing themselves to be asshats Balance.

They KNOW they are alright to say A*** B****** when they talk about the program A*** B*******. They'd just rather keep throwing their toys and acting like asshats.

I still love how C&D's are treated with the same venom as a police raid on some persons house. Man, you people need to get out more.

Wait? It is? Are you sure, because the letter that I read said that they need to filter out improper uses of the term, and it came from a lawyer!!! I'm not a lawyer so I don't know what improper uses of the trademark might be. PP's response was to filter out all references to the word, and since they are a responsible company wanting to be sure they operate in the fullest extent of the law, I can only assume they did the right thing. Since you are surely a lawyer to be able to use such impressive words as 'asshats' and 'persons' then I can only assume you'll be able to tell me when I can and can't use their words!!!

P.S. I censored your post when I quoted it because I don't want anyone getting mad at me because my post might contain bad words!

Thanks but you don't need to. I am talking about the Army Builder program. LWD does not like people using the term "army builder" when NOT talking about THEIR program. I am talking about LWD's program so I AM allowed to use the phrase "Army Builder" because that is what I'm talking about. Stop with the asshattery and toy throwing.

I guess some people can't handle the fact that PP made a dick move and acted like crybabies and the PP fanbois (hey I can use that term too) think LWD is being underhanded. It's not LWD's fault that PP mods acted like a bunch of crybabies. PP overreacted, NOT LWD. Stop seeing PP as the victims here. PP victimized themselves.

The lot of you must throw tantrums when the police ticket you for speeding "because there are other more civil ways to go about it".

I see this thread locking soon.

Fateweaver wrote:I see this thread locking soon.

So do I.