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Hm. The scenario as posted surprises me; I've never been to a GW game tournament, but I used to be a major MtG player, and I figured it would be similar.

In MtG tournaments, it is standard, every round, to hear a loud cry of "Judge!" and one (or two) player's hand go up.

The judge comes on over, resolves the issue, and play continues. Neither player leaves their seat unless necessary for any reason, and definitely not until the judge has seen the board position. That way, if anything does happen, the judge will see it's happened.

Once - exactly once - has this not been the case, in my experience or that of anyone else I've spoken to. Annoyingly it happened to me - I had to call a judge when playing in the basement of a two-storey area. After three attempts without moving, I eventually (and begrudgingly) left my seat to seek a judge. Lo and behold, when I return my opponent has changed the board position, subtly, but enough to make it that he doesn't lose a game he should have lost.

That venue never held an official tournament again.

If things work differently in wargaming tounaments, I wouldn't be comfortable playing in them. Quite aside from the possibility of theft (because it's such as small possibility) how easy would it be for an opponent to remove one or two models and add them to your casualties while you're away? Most players can't tell the difference between fifteen and seventeen Orks at a glance unless there's an obvious difference in formation, after all.

Funny how this thread wouldn't of happened if you had stayed next to the table. Just saying.

Tell it to the judge immediately, and if it does not get him disqualified
pack up my stuff and go pyro on a plastic model that seems valuable.

Depopulate the room

Make a skull throne.

You are the winner.




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Deff Rider Warboss wrote:Funny how this thread wouldn't of happened if you had stayed next to the table. Just saying.

Thats like saying you got robbed cause you left your house not because someone decided to rob you.

Shaman wrote:Depopulate the room

Make a skull throne.

You are the winner.

Nobody wins when they side with Chaos!

Thats like saying you got robbed cause you left your house not because someone decided to rob you.

Deff Rider Warboss wrote:Thats like saying you got robbed cause you left your house not because someone decided to rob you.

Cheaters rarely work their craft while opponect is staring at them.

Although we could always just take the highroad and say it was the terrains fault xD

You're suposed to do this OP.


"Hey! HEY! The cheeto infested lumps of flesh you call hands did NOT just touch my stuff! Do you have any idea how hard it will be to get your stench off of them? Now they're going to be cursed with your bad luck forever, and do you know what that means? It means that they're going to spend the rest of their life living in the lower foam tray of my case and hanging around the local school creeping out all the parents because they want to argue about how the new Spiderman sucks with all the eight year olds in the playground. And if they somehow agree with them to make them shut up about the old Spiderman they'll lure them back to the Rhino with candy and Uno."

I know a lot of people have said this but I'd totally just be an ass to the guy the rest of the game. I'd only move my figures 5 inches for move and 5 inches for assault. Every time I'd say something like. I'm gonna only move these 5 inches b/c I don't want you to go to HELL for being a cheater. Or. just casually in disbelief say.. "wow, is it really that small? So small you have to cheat at games with little army men to make you feel better about what you are doing? Or.... I need a drink, since I don't want you touching my well painted figures is there anything that you'd like me to move further away or just take off the board. Or hey... I've got 10 guys taking a shot at you and 6 hit. Let's just say you automatically made your saves, no need to not show me your dice.

It would be Brutal for him the rest of the game.

It would either be that approach or make him show me every rule in the book that he intends to use, challenge him, make him look stuff up...even if I know he is correct.

Wow. After reading this thread it has finally become apparent why so many people are in favor of soft scores. Its because most gamers don't have the balls to call out a cheater...Instead they would rather give him a 0 in sports scores so he can avoid confrontation.

Seriously, if someone is cheating call them on it. I don't know what else to tell you. Its not fair to you if you don't and its not fair to anyone else at the event. Because they are changing the outcome of it.

Considering that half the people at my local shop still quote 4th ed rules, I have no problem calling them out, even if its not my game. If they are cheating, they are cheating (even if they don't know it) There is no reason not to call them out on it. No, it doesn't need to be happening to me for me to say something...

Seriously, no wonder why people still cheat at events. There is almost no downside for it because apparently most WAR gamers are spineless...

CptZach wrote:Wow. After reading this thread it has finally become apparent why so many people are in favor of soft scores. Its because most gamers don't have the balls to call out a cheater...Instead they would rather give him a 0 in sports scores so he can avoid confrontation.

Seriously, if someone is cheating call them on it. I don't know what else to tell you. Its not fair to you if you don't and its not fair to anyone else at the event. Because they are changing the outcome of it.

Considering that half the people at my local shop still quote 4th ed rules, I have no problem calling them out, even if its not my game. If they are cheating, they are cheating (even if they don't know it) There is no reason not to call them out on it. No, it doesn't need to be happening to me for me to say something...

Seriously, no wonder why people still cheat at events. There is almost no downside for it because apparently most WAR gamers are spineless...

You can be wrong about a rule, or misquote a rule without being a cheater. Cheater implies intent.

I freely admit to forgetting rules or getting a rule confused with another game system (thinking of an EPIC rule for 40K that sort of thing) for general gaming, and have likely done so for tournaments in the past. but the simple answer is look the rule up-voila done. If its an ambiguous rule then go with house convention, go with the TO (if in a tourney) or agree to an interpretation and check it out later.

Having said that, if you make the mistake of calling me a cheater to my face then we are going to have a personal problem-fast. You've taken it out of good faith mistakes and into personal behavior. You'd better be 100% right but still be able to move quickly, because its not going to end well.

CptZach wrote:Wow. After reading this thread it has finally become apparent why so many people are in favor of soft scores. Its because most gamers don't have the balls to call out a cheater...Instead they would rather give him a 0 in sports scores so he can avoid confrontation.

Most human beings without some kind of authority avoid confrontation. They've even done studies of this sort of thing, by butting into queues with either flimsy pretenses or none at all, and most of their victims did nothing. To single out confrontation avoidance as merely a trait of dickless gamers (in whose number I presume you do not include your hallowed self) is merely a transparent attempt to appear stronger by comparison, to say "I'm better than these people", either explicitly or implicitly.

And so's this post, as it turns out. Recursion, choombas.

Actually there are plenty of definitions of cheating that do not imply intent.

Besides your arguing word schematics. You completely ignored my entire post, picked out 1 part you didn't like and attempted to imply that because of that my entire post is incorrect.

Sorry, but its not.

If it makes you feel any better. I will use "cheater" for any situation that has intent behind it. And "clueless" for any situation where it is just lack of rules knowledge.

CptZach wrote:Actually there are plenty of definitions of cheating that do not imply intent.

Besides your arguing word schematics. You completely ignored my entire post, picked out 1 part you didn't like and attempted to imply that because of that my entire post is incorrect.

Sorry, but its not.

If it makes you feel any better. I will use "cheater" for any situation that has intent behind it. And "clueless" for any situation where it is just lack of rules knowledge.

No I didn't ignore your post. I find it lacks merit.
Your self definition of cheating is incorrect. Further, it would not save you if you said that to me, or most people I know.
I'm not arguing semantics. I'm making the plain statement that accusing people of cheating without intent is an excellent way to get hurt. I highly, highly doubt you are so brave in the real world.

I obviously don't call anyone a cheater unless there is purposeful intent. I do call people on their rules mistakes though. (again, our definitions differ so lets just ignore that part of it)

And you think my entire post lacks merit because our definitions of cheating differ? I already conceded that point and said I would use the term "clueless" for someone who breaks the rules without intent.

Yea pretty much.

There is almost no downside for it because apparently most WAR gamers are spineless...

Andy why the needless addition of "clueless?" You do understand there's social interaction going on in gaming right? Do you going into gaming with that mentality?

Deff Rider Warboss wrote:Thats like saying you got robbed cause you left your house not because someone decided to rob you.

someone wrote:Cheaters rarely work their craft while opponect is staring at them.

Although we could always just take the highroad and say it was the terrains fault xD

I don't accept that cheating is anything other than the cheat's fault.

Because I want to have a fun time playing my game of toy soldiers, I'm probably not going to call my opponent a douche for intentionally bending the rules... but I would check the rule and make sure we played it right, and if they did it often enough, just not play them again.

Sometimes I'll let things slide for the sake of time or enjoyment, or because I'm not sure of the rule myself and don't have time to look it up.

But I definitely go home and check on the rule, so that the next time the situation arises, I can have the correct rule ready so that we can play it right!

One thing not to do is finish the game and then say something about it. Having hosted and judged several 100+ gaming tournaments I can tell you it is impossible for a judge or organizer to make a choice after the game is done.

It all boils down to trust. If you can see the situation, have evidence, and call attention to it immediatly then it makes the choice easy and takes "your word vs his" out of the situation.

I would have called for a judge, showed him the note, asked the other player to talk to the judge. 99% of the time if you take that stance either he would be booted or you would have been awarded a score based on the setting of the board.

I would also like to point out that it is hard being a judge when it comes to issues of cheating. So ... be nice!

Frazzled wrote:
No I didn't ignore your post. I find it lacks merit.
Your self definition of cheating is incorrect. Further, it would not save you if you said that to me, or most people I know.
I'm not arguing semantics. I'm making the plain statement that accusing people of cheating without intent is an excellent way to get hurt. I highly, highly doubt you are so brave in the real world.

An excellent way to get hurt? Why all the violence, if I was falsely accused of cheating I would calmly explain to the other player how what I did was not cheating and even re-do the action (assuming it was a simple move etc.) if they really wanted me to. No need to go off the handle and punch someone for not trusting you. If they did it a lot I would simply finish the game and not play against them again. Building trust is important and as soon as you prove to the person that they can trust you they shouldn't accuse you again (in less of course you do cheat). If someone started to get violent with me I would immediatly pack up and leave or (if I paid to play) inform a judge that a player is getting violent and should be removed/talked to. If that was a joke then I apologize but the point as a whole still stands

And I would definitly confront a cheater but not in the "HEY YOUR CHEATING!!!!" at the top of my lungs kind of way. This tactic automatically sets people on edge due to embarressement and the fact that they were caught so they are naturally going to be defensive. If you calmly say: "Hey, I'm back from the judge. Oh, my models appear to have moved mind if I move them back?" that just might work. If you have an adamant cheater... well maybe not. But in all reality he moved his plastic men a bit further than they should move and rolled one more dice for his imaginary pewpew so... yeah... game and such.

OMG! something intelligent was posted on the internet!

Its the end of the world!!!

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:If I were at a tournament without an entry fee, more like a day of back-to-back games, then I would probably not sweat it too much. It usually isn't worth it unless substantial prizes are involved, and the guy is obviously just being a douche. But as the father of 2, if you are wasting my entrance fee (read: my money) by cheating me, then I will call each and every instance, loudly if possible.

I have to strongly disagree here.

Wrongness is *always* worth correcting.

There is a line drawn between right and wrong - the stakes involved in the action that is right/wrong don't matter, only the action itself. Whether in a friendly game or in a tournament for cash, cheating is cheating and must not be tolerated.

In my last tournament, I played a guy who cheated throughout the game (some of which I didn't realize until after the game when I went and read his codex again). I don't know if some of it was intentional, but rolling a 3 for a run movement, and then moving 6", is DEFINITELY cheating. Movement shenigans are the most obvious, but an extra attack in close combat could be an honest mistake.

I think that there are "soft cheaters" out there, who will always admit fault and undo their "mistake". These are the ones who are nigh impossible to call out, and they're probably the most common.

I'd say feck it, put away my models, walk away, walk back, tell him some smart arse thing about himself, walk away, go home, post on dakka to let my hate go away, eat and then sleep.

Augustus wrote:What would you do if this happened:

You are playing a game in a tournament.
You agree with your opponent that smashed multi story buildings are just ruins before the game.
During the game your opponents places models on the second story of a piece of ruin.
When you try to assault these models with an assault move he claims you are out of range as you have to measure "up" also.
You decide to ask a judge for a ruling.
When you come back with the ruling, your friend passes you a note that says:

"When you stepped away your opponent moved your models out of range."

?

1. Slap your friend for being a complete moron and not stopping him.

2. Tell him to his face you are giving him zero points for army composition and sportsmanship.

3. Continue to laugh your ass off while you measure to his models from the one he moved and then charge in anyway even if he really did move them out of range.

4. Laugh in his face when he tells you they were out of range and never reply with anything else other than "No, they were in range. I just measured it before moving them."


And last but not least "accidently" ,while moving into hand to hand combat, stumble a little and catch yourself by placing your hand, palm down, on his nicest looking model. Feel free to grind it into the table while regaining your balance. Then pick up all the pieces and say "Geez mister I'm awful sorry about that. I have some extra glue if you need it."

5. Get punched in face for deliberately breaking someones models.

Ah, the joys of internet tough guys.....

See my previous post lol... I <3 how tough people act on this here internets.

CrazyThang wrote:See my previous post lol... I <3 how tough people act on this here internets.

Indeed.

The ones who talk are the ones who never do anything. I've packed up my models and left a tournament just once. I regret doing it afterwards; I probably would have won and should have stuck around. I don't think violence is called for on the table barring extenuating circumstances. I've only gotten physical once, but that was because he threatened my wife. Nothing in a game justifies violence; calling a TO over - definitely. Getting someone banned from the store - also worthwhile.

I got one to add to this: what do you do if you find out your best friend is cheating and most of your game store knew it. I'm trying to figure out how to approach this matter in telling him to back off on the shenanigans yet I don't want to upset him and I got it in my head some major argument will happen.

I kind of blame myself as in my group's friendly games we let alot of crap slide as we sometimes play more akin to how it makes sense according to fluff, IE Deffrolla BEFORE the FAQ and other obscure things like making living ammo reroll armor pen as we didn't care whether or not it's what the rules said, we figured 'hey, acidic worms eating through the armor of the tank, why not?' Now granted I would adopt a stern approach come casual play outside the group and tournaments but unfortunately my friend seems to have been thinking otherwise. He tried to use living ammo on a vehicle, it was ruled he could not, ok fine THEN he tried it again next week's league game. Also I'm hearing how he palms dice when he rolls with one hand then rolls to wound with the other, already having a few dice in them apparently, how he moves from the edge of the model to the middle, adding an inch or two, etc etc.

I've discussed this with my other friends in the group but atm they can't help as they are out of state for college so it's up to me to tell him face to face, as I'd rather not bitch out using a messaging program. Just looking to see what some people would do if given my scenario.

Ketara wrote:5. Get punched in face for deliberately breaking someones models.

Ah, the joys of internet tough guys.....

Is internet tough guy anything like internet humorless guy? Maybe you should relax a little and go with the humor a little Remember caffeine is not your friend.......


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Kurgash wrote:I got one to add to this: what do you do if you find out your best friend is cheating and most of your game store knew it. .

Just tell him to stop? If you are really best friends it really shouldn't be a problem.