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Moving thread to Dakka Discussions.

CrazyThang wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:What the hell...

Are the forums populated by spineless people? ><

If I got a note from my friend, it would be an instant "JUDGE! NEED YOUR HELP!" followed by "While I was looking for you for a judgment call, my opponent moved my models, and I have a witness that he's cheating."

If you pay money to participate in an event, don't let someone drive you out because they're cheating. You're rewarding their behavior. Get them booted out, and publicly shame them on the spot...loudly.

This.

Concur.

Make loud noises, name and shame that gakker.
Cheating at a game of toy soldiers is the ultimate in chumptastic wankery.

Burger Rage wrote:I like the part where the friend won't even SPEAK to you, he hands you a note instead.

You know... in case the other guy overhears him or something.

Could the original poster point out the ages of the people involved?

I would agree with Burger that a direct confrontation is waranted in this case, but we may be talking about a 12 year old being intimidated by a 33 year old 250 pound man.

Just saying.

Ages involved and the type of tournment involved are important.

There is little toleration for flaggerant cheating at the GT level. If i've paid $50 for the event, likely I would not take the cheating lightly. Its always important to handle any rules, measuring, open dispute in a respectful manner. The difference of opinion can range from blatant cheating, to lack of knowledge of rules, to different opinion in rules. Your opponent may have differen experiences then you do.

For a local rogue trader or GW store event. I wouldn't be surprised to come back to the table to find my models moved. I would point it out to the judge that there appears to have been a jogging of the table. Still I'd poitn of the scenario, and if it gets down to a yes it was/ no it wasn't your pretty much out of luck. I'd offer to dice it off at that point as that point as its really not worth the frustration. Local events attract more Dbag's who cheat to win, just my experience.

As the original poster references a friend saw this occassion, I'd ask to bring them in to provide their example. At a GT, your looking at a likely disqualification in the round. At a RT/Local, your looking at a dice off. The real question comes down to comfort of the player. I've let some cheating examples slide over the years. The reason are usually decided by

1. is it worth it? if its a pick up game most time I truly do not care. I'll point out rule issues, but largely just move on as if i've got time for a pick up game i'm just happy to game.

2. Is this last round of a event, where neither myself/ opponent are largely affect? If so, i'll point it out to my opponent, offer to dice off an disagreement. Again, not worth the arguements, your into fun games at that point.

3. Top tables at a event that's GT, i'm going to ask my opponent to come with me to speak with the judge. If its a guy i've played before and i generally am comfortable going alone, i'll go get the judge myself. Most of the guys at GT's are web regulars. If he moved the models, then its picture time, and posting time. Lots of the club guys are hard on each other and their club mates for cheating. Its unlikely a club guy will want or need to cheat.

4. Last round at a local event. I commonly used to say "hey lets go ask the judge for their opinion, lets go together so we can each show our points of view." Its important for BOTH parties to have a say, no just one person describe the situation. Again though, local events if i'm actually in attendance, I usually offer to dice off if a judge is not readily available.

Whatever you do don't draw more attention then you need to the situation. It's a natural instinct to not upset the herd.

Some good solutions are passive aggression, fantasizing about physical violence or avoidance of confrontation.

Dashofpepper wrote:What the hell...

Are the forums populated by spineless people? ><

I'm going to go out on a limb and say... "No."

Dashofpepper wrote:

If I got a note from my friend, it would be an instant "JUDGE! NEED YOUR HELP!" followed by "While I was looking for you for a judgment call, my opponent moved my models, and I have a witness that he's cheating."

That's probably an OK way to handle it...

Im good at judging distances, so this is something I would take personaly and confront my opponent on the spot. If the judge wants to shush the event and ignore it, I will demand a refund and leave, but the room will know what happened.

At Adepticon a few years ago our team encountered a similar event. Our opponents moved their terminators away from our Greater Demon more than 6". It was evident. When my brother confronted them, they simply pulled out the tape measure and said"no it was 6"" The problem was that the GD was only 4" away after his massacre roll, so they moved over 8". To deal with it in our turn, we moved our GD back into range to charge. They protested to which I replied it was the same 6" as their Terminators had moved. At that point they knew we werent taking their crap and no more issues the rest of the game. And no dings on sportsmanship.

Did this really happen?

Yes

Ages of people involved?

Player was 30+, friend was 30+, opponent was 50+ (Physical intimidation wasn't an issue)

Was this a GT?

No, it was a local tournament, but there was an entry fee.

Why didn't the judge come to the table?

They were busy in other places.

Why didn't the 'friend' confront the guy?

Unknown.


Do these details change what anyone thinks, it seems the consensus was to expose the cheat? I'll ad this comment, the ruling went against the player, the judges said that going 'up' a level took 3 inches, which was their house rule for the terrain. This would have put the chargers out of range either way.

Consensus still stands. Thank you for sharing though. It helps people understand the issue (Where you're coming from). And it limits assumptions, which are usually wrong.

Standing up for yourself, saying "No, that is NOT where you were when I left" is the right thing to do.

It is a battle worth picking.

Dashofpepper wrote:What the hell...

Are the forums populated by spineless people? ><

If I got a note from my friend, it would be an instant "JUDGE! NEED YOUR HELP!" followed by "While I was looking for you for a judgment call, my opponent moved my models, and I have a witness that he's cheating."

If you pay money to participate in an event, don't let someone drive you out because they're cheating. You're rewarding their behavior. Get them booted out, and publicly shame them on the spot...loudly.

What helmet cat guy said

Well, for me it depends entirely on the situation..

If it were a tourney with no entry fee and it were early on I would simply pack my models silently and walk out without a word, tossing the note onto the table in plain view of my opponent as I walked out. This approach just seems very classy to me

If it were a real tournament that I paid for or was high up in I would get a judge and tell him that my models were moved, show him the note, and get my friend to tell him what happened. If the player who cheated were not disqualified or forced to forfeit the match at that point, I would leave the game whether it be by leaving the tourney all together or just forfeiting the match. I'm not about to let some kid go and screw with me and then keep playing him and give him the opportunity to do it again.


Now, none of this would matter because no friend of mine would sit there and watch someone cheat me. If my friend sat there and took that I would be pissed beyond all belief at him. I don't care if the opponent is a 300 pound MMA fighter, if I saw my pal getting cheated I would take it up with him before he got close to touching the models. And let's be honest; how many brawls have you seen break out at GW tourneys?

Edit: Just read the OP's new post. The fact that this 50 year old man tried to cheat is... well... pitiful. Considering what you just said, I would probably just go for telling the judge and getting this "friend" to tell what happened. Had this been some 16 year old punk kid it would be different

People need to keep in mind that at some tournaments outside interference in a game is strictly forbidden.

Spectators (if allowed at all) are not allowed neither to speak, nor call judges.

if I were you I'd suggest stick + nail + skull. I really just want to see a fight break out in a tournament. I'm weird that way.

If you argue loud enough the jerk will be revealed as a jerk.

Where I come from, cheating is an instant forfeit of the entire match.

In a tournament situation, you bet I'd blow him in. Especially when there's money involved, or prizes. And especially if someone was willing to vouch for me.

In a friendly game, well, I wouldn't have left the table, but cheating happens in these situations, too. If it was blatant, I'd call him on it. If it was subtle, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. But once I was sure he's cheating me, I would never play him again and tell him why.

I signed up for a game of 40K - not mind games.

Augustus wrote: the judges said that going 'up' a level took 3 inches, which was their house rule for the terrain.

That's the standard rule for ruins.

It may be different in more active areas, but around my parts if there is a large tourney with 30 or so people playing the owner of the FLGS is always the judge so he normally doesn't have much time to go from table to table. I've always had to go up to him and ask for a clarification or ruling. Its not his fault he can't watch the tables because he ends up being fairly overworked trying to compute results AND keep track of those people who do come up to him with questions/issues. When I play there the unspoken etiquette seems to be both players approach the judge, that way issues like that don't crop up.

Generally speaking in my scene the kinds of cheating that happens are people who measure behind the ruler then place the model ahead (the classic movement mistake) and it's normally done by newbie and very young (11 or 12 year old) players.

The worst circumstance I've heard of was a kid at a tourney a year ago who decided he was going to make it turn 5 instead of 3 so he could win by kill points and refused to back down on the issue. Again in this circumstance the kid was about 11 and although feelings were hurt we pretty much let it go. For now.

Steelmage99 wrote:People need to keep in mind that at some tournaments outside interference in a game is strictly forbidden.

Spectators (if allowed at all) are not allowed neither to speak, nor call judges.

Cheaters must love this system, since that way they have to fool only one person, as opposed to half a dozen. Hell, as long as their opponent doesn't realize it, they can flaunt their wankery in plain sight.

avantgarde wrote:Whatever you do don't draw more attention then you need to the situation. It's a natural instinct to not upset the herd.

Some good solutions are passive aggression, fantasizing about physical violence or avoidance of confrontation.

Gwar! wrote:And how do you know the Friend wasn't just trying to create Dramaz?

If you don't trust your friend over a guy you met in the past hour, you should probably get a new friend.

let's see, usual suspects with the trolls. a usual suspect advocating physical violence.

On Topic and easy way to avoid cheating at tournaments: Don't play in tournaments. Why? Tournament players cheat.

Pika_power wrote:

Gwar! wrote:And how do you know the Friend wasn't just trying to create Dramaz?

If you don't trust your friend over a guy you met in the past hour, you should probably get a new friend.

I would need friends to begin with.

Ok i cant comment on this as i dont play in the terniment sceane but i can say calling the guys out by shouting some smart ass remark will get you labled as TFG.
Dont get me wrong the guy is a @s$ if he did that

i do have a few tips for guys in clubs with younger member or members like me who take time to get to grips with the rules:

1. if some one asks rules questions try to rember who they are and what rule it was as in games later on test them about it.
2. If theres someone you know that has problems with rules (dosnet know them or is hazzy on them) fastist way round that is bend them rules while playing them.
3. this is to help them learn tell them you will bend rules (not brake them as thats bad) but dont tell them witch ones and also tell them to tell you which ones it is.

these apper to be the same thing trust me there not this is how my mate did it when i was learning and this is what we do at the club i go to every so offten and it has worked.

the main thing about the game is to have fun.

I hate cheaters they are on off my pet hates (personal reasons most of you can gusse) and sadly it spills in to one off the things i enjoy the most.

well any way peace out

Pete

Augustus wrote:When you come back with the ruling, your friend passes you a note that says:

"When you stepped away your opponent moved your models out of range."

I alert the TO, and ask for him to DQ my opponent for blatant cheating.

I'd probably ask my friend why the they're passing me notes instead of pointing out the cheater directly and openly.

After that, I'm not sure. I'd probably drift between two options depending on my mood. I'd either:
A) call a judge and inform them of the cheating and present my friend as a witness and ask for them to remove the offender from the tournament. Because someone attemption to cheat me usally is more upsetting that whether or not they got away with it.
B) win the game handidly and then ignore the situation. Because the best revenge is living well.

Howlingmoon wrote:let's see, usual suspects with the trolls. a usual suspect advocating physical violence.

On Topic and easy way to avoid cheating at tournaments: Don't play in tournaments. Why? Tournament players cheat.

Wow. What a shallow point of view.

I am glad you don't play in tournaments.

If I were at a tournament without an entry fee, more like a day of back-to-back games, then I would probably not sweat it too much. It usually isn't worth it unless substantial prizes are involved, and the guy is obviously just being a douche. But as the father of 2, if you are wasting my entrance fee (read: my money) by cheating me, then I will call each and every instance, loudly if possible.

<FRIDAY QUOTE>
"Messin wit my money is like messin wit my emotions!" -Big Worm to Smokey
</FRIDAY QUOTE>

Anyway, in the particular instance described, I definitely would need more information there. The questions that would have to be answered:

1) Why the friend didn't just say it
2) Would the friend be willing to vouch to a judge
3) Even if he would, it would be his word against the opponents, so was there another way to prove he had moved them?
4) How many judges were there, and why did the player have to leave the table to find one?

All and all, it just sounds like the player should stand up for himself. He paid an entrance fee, and deserves a fair chance. Cheating of any kind (meaning WILLFULLY deceiving or modifying the game/rules/situation for an advantage) should be met with the utmost retribution.

I have actually been avoiding this post for a bit since I do not do tournaments. I plan on attending my first 'Ard boys in May, so I thought again and checked this out. Well...some of you would be a kick to see in this situation.

In any game or age situation, the easiest thing to do is confront the player. I did security for 5 or so years at a Casino, many people will talk out the situation when presented with the facts. I do not mean yelling CHEATER or be rude about it. A simple, "I thought my models were here..." would have been enough to start off the process.

In the actual instance the ruins add 3 inches to go up a level, the older player should not have moved the models, especially when his opponent left. He cold have pointed it out to the player the ruling on going up a level. The situation could have been handled the same way there, and probably had the same outcome with out anyone feeling like something wrong had happened.


We have a guy who tries to move his models 8 or 9 inches on a regular basis. I called him on it many times when I played him, as did many other players at the store I frequent. He kept doing it over the course of a few weeks. It is pretty tough for him to pick up games now.

I personally had this same problem J-Roc77 had, though on the bad side of it, This guy I played tried to cheat every game he could possibly do, he would move extra inch so on so on, well a few weeks down the road, I was forced to play him, His first move onto the board, I gladly helped by coming to his side of the board And re-measuring with my metal tape. Well he did not like that very well so his turn came back up and he moves his 12 inch movement tank forward then moved almost to its center.. with a squad, I was like oh really hold on re do that, I scratched my head this GW tape of his just said his tank moved 12 yet his troops move 6 and it looks like 9? so 3rd turn rolls around and my friend borrowed my tape and I use this guy... then I realized it how he has been winning the other rounds, this guy has been using a GW cloth tape which Stretches very easily over usage I couldn't believe how dumb duh the dude warms it up when its my turn to get a extra few centimeters then pulls the plastic just enough to cause a half inch .. so I called the judge he said nothing he can do cept make him use a different one.. so I thought oh that's complete bull... now.. I'm not one to destroy other peoples things.. but 5th turn comes around and this guy assaults 7 inches I redid it for him and he starts a argument and ding time.. .. he won.. nothing i could do.. cept... I pulled the button lose on his tape and it snapped hard causing the head to come flying off broken and I laughed as it spinned in side broken forcing him to borrow a metal one, he got mad and what was even better for first and second my friend his first turn took the tape and did the same thing that i did forcing the guy to use metal but what was worse he was checking the open staging area and when it snapped it flung the dudes marine off the table and broke his arm and he got mad and so far in 4 weeks I have yet to see him come back.

now Like I said I am not one to ruin other people's things but paying 20$ to enter and get screwed from a cheater and knowing you should be playing someone else the whole time, I think he deserved it and sometimes karma hits and poor marines get shot down...

Wow, run-on much? That is a wall of text that is hard for me to read, but I did get the part about the cloth tape out of it. That is just downright dirty playing, the same as having loaded dice in my book.