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Grimstonefire wrote:Probably been said already (too lazy to check), but why would the GW store pull off the shelves a book that is still 'current', because there are rumours of a new one?

Seems a bit stupid to me, they should want to sell both.

I've been to place where they have multiple edition of books side by side... (not GW stores)

Removing a codex from the online store usually preempts it being replaced by a newer ruleset. See: Imperial Guard, Space Wolves, Tyranids...

Probably been said already (too lazy to check), but why would the GW store pull off the shelves a book that is still 'current', because there are rumours of a new one? Seems a bit stupid to me, they should want to sell both.

GW pulls the older book months ahead of replacing it. It's not stupid, it allows them to sell off the old stock and then be done with it instead of having a pile of obsolete books when the replacement is released. This practice also protects their customers from buying a book just a few days or weeks before it is obsolete. Be grateful they do this now, they were not always so careful in the early days of the Warhammer hobby.

This doesn't always happen though. GW Oxford Street still had the old Skaven book on sale a month before the release of the new one. I remember thinking it was a bit cheeky...

We didn't say anything about brick and mortar stores, though.

Sadly, sometimes if stores have copies on their shelves they still sell them a little too close to the release of their replacement to be good for long-term business. Good managers won't sell them because it will just anger the customer when they find out they bought a book just days or a few weeks from obsolescence and it's not very good for customer retention to do that, but these things do happen occasionally.

More on topic, it's ridiculous to think that GW has discontinued two popular model ranges. Granted, they haven't sold as well as they might the past few years, but that's largely because of the age of their army books and the expensiveness of the all-metal model ranges. All that's about to be corrected.

BrassScorpion wrote:Sadly, sometimes if stores have copies on their shelves they still sell them a little too close to the release of their replacement to be good for long-term business. Good managers won't sell them because it will just anger the customer when they find out they bought a book just days or a few weeks from obsolescence and it's not very good for customer retention to do that, but these things do happen occasionally.

More on topic, it's ridiculous to think that GW has discontinued two popular model ranges. Granted, they haven't sold as well as they might the past few years, but that's largely because of the age of their army books and the expensiveness of the all-metal model ranges. All that's about to be corrected.

I dunno about 'popular' though. I've never met an actual DH/WH player or painter for that matter.

They have a strong niche following and the models look good; they're just fixed-pose metals that are hard to personalize. Plastic kits would go a long way towards making the army more mainstream by making it cheaper and by allowing much snazzier conversion opportunities.

Ostrakon wrote:Eh, I flipped through it and was rather unimpressed. They are in need of an update, probably as much as Crons and DE. There's really no excuse to have 50 point rhinos anymore.

They need an update for sure, but I don't want to lose the faith powers, ability to field crapload of Immolators as a 65-point troop transport, and so on. There's plenty to like in there as well. They are a niche army, they shouldn't necessarily bowl you over like some of the other armies, but they are VERY competitive, even as is.

Ostrakon wrote:I dunno about 'popular' though. I've never met an actual DH/WH player or painter for that matter.

That's because us DH/WH players - who are all Casual Gamers - don't mix with the lower folk. We're too busy enjoying our casual games from atop our glorious mountain of ivory.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:I dunno about 'popular' though. I've never met an actual DH/WH player or painter for that matter.

That's because us DH/WH players - who are all Casual Gamers - don't mix with the lower folk. We're too busy enjoying our casual games from atop our glorious mountain of ivory.

Nonsense, I'm a casual player too. I mean, jeez, I play freakin' Necrons. And it's not like my LGS isn't filled with casual gamers anyway, they're always playing Apoc, which as far as I can tell as far from competitive as it gets.

You're only a casual player if the DCGM says you are.

And they say you're not. They say you secretly harbour intentions of tournament play.

We will pray for you.

H.B.M.C. wrote:You're only a casual player if the DCGM says you are.

And they say you're not. They say you secretly harbour intentions of tournament play.

We will pray for you.

I can't casually attend tournaments with no intention of winning?

WHY WAS I NOT INFORMED?!

Entering a tournament with no intention of winning is a very... silly... thing to do.

We will pray for that also.

[quote=OstrakonI dunno about 'popular' though. I've never met an actual DH/WH player or painter for that matter.

I dont think GW would change sister save from 3+ to 4+ or whatever. Sisters of Battle wear power armour and power armour is a 3+ save. One could argue SM armour is bulkier because the soldiers themselves are gene enhanced.

SoB armour looks like it does because of GW sculpting them that way nearly 20years ago. Afaik they have the same look now that they had back in 2ed.

I dont think they will wear the combat corset when they are remade but who knows. Who are we to say what material the armour is made of? You also have to look at the stats for them. They have the standard human stats of T3 while sm have T4.
Nerdish voice : Bush thash becaush they are ghene enhansched.
Well, it does make the SM tougher to kill if only slightly but that doesnt nullify the fact that both wear power armour.

Ive heard allot of people complain about the combat corset, that it makes them look like whores and that its sexists etc etc etc.
Technically you could chop of the heads of SM and replace them with Sister heads but then SM players would complain that they arnt as tough as SM and that the look isnt right, this would be true because they arnt.

We also have to remember that its a game and GW will make what they believe will sell the most models. In a real world application there would be no boobcups on the sister armour, it would look the same as male armour which it also does. But in 40K where it seems looks are more important than practicality they dont follow the normal rules of common sense.
Im sure wearing all those purity seals and scrolls really helps from a combat perspective. It might scare the opponent and raise the moral of the troops and wearer but thats about it.

Now lets take a look at it from a gaming point of view.
What would happen if the Sisters of Battle were reduced to a 4+ or even 5+ armour save. First of why the hell would an elite group of warriors who represent one of the largest and most important ordos of the imperium have the same armour as a lowly Imperial Guard soldier?
5+ armour save would be slowed and the rules changes to make up for it would have to be really substantial. Sisters are a 12-24" ranged combat army, Id sure love to see you have a good time standing out in the open with a 5+ armour save because you have to get within 12" of the enemy to be effective...
But Acts of Faith could offset that, no it would not unless they kept the current rules for how many you can use and changed them to IG orders. This however would be really silly and I will explain why.

You have 10 Battle Sisters in a rhino heading across the board. Your rhino gets destroyed half way and you are now 24" away from the opponent, lets say IG bunkered down in terrain.
You can now take potshots at them or move into the 12" golden range that is where Sisters do their battles.
The problem is your 10 sisters will face the First rank, second rank fire next turn and you are likely to lose about 5 or more sisters because of a crappy 5+ armour save.
So how would GW balance this? With Acts of Faith you say.
They would have to add some new AoF for sure because the current ones wouldnt help one bit.
The current ones give +2S but attack at I1, +2I, AP1 bolters on 6s to wound or power weapon attacks on 6s, Inv save equal to armour save (yeah, a 5+Inv save would really help) and finaly the fearless faith.
Which one of these would help foot slogging sisters to get within the 12" range which is where sisters need to be to be effective and help them stay alive at that range?
There would have to be some new acts of faith that help with that. There are 3 ways with the current rules you can go.
AoF of armour, you gain a better armour save but this would be pointless since why have this if you could just leave the armour rating where it was? So this isnt valid.
AoF of Feel no Pain, I could accept this. 5+ armour save plus a 3+FnP save. Heck, they would be better than they are right now. But then people would scream OP.
AoF of cover, you get a cover save of 3-4+. I guess the sisters would have smoke launchers in their boobcups or something or their faith in the emperor gives them bad gas and that provides the cover save. Maybe if they were Sisters of Nurgle...

Another problem would be point cost, are you telling me its fair to pay 11pt for a sister with a 4-5+ save just because she has acts of faith? With the current AoF the price would have to be similar to the price of IG infantry. So about 6pt per sister because they have a Bolter.
The only way the price could stay the same would be if they received some new AoF that helped them survive to and at the 12" range. Only viable one I see would be FnP faith. Rest wouldnt make sense.
So with every single group of footsloggers or sisters who have disembarked you would have to do AoF of FnP just to be able to survive at the 12" range. Staying at 12" range means you are within range of the enemy flamers which happens to be AP5 with heavy flamer at AP4. This means you would also have to use Inv save AoF.

With the current rules you receive 1 Faith Point per veteran sister superior, celestian squad and seraphim squad and HQ Palatine and +2 for a Canoness. You also get the same amount when the faithful character dies.
At 1000pt you are lucky if you have 5FP, at 1500 around 7FP. So every enemy shooting phase and probably assault phase as well I would have to spend 2 FP per squad I own just to be able to keep them alive at the 12" range. This would be slowed so Faith would have to become morale checks instead. Unless they made every faithful char give 5FP... Ok, I have 36FP left, now I used this and that and have 27FP left...

So every shooting phase I would have to do atleast 2 AoF for every squad just to be able to keep them alive and ontop of that I would have to do more AoF to get the bonuses to combat some of them give.

Changing SoB armour to 4-5+ save would be slowed, they would have to change the way sisters play completely.
Its the same thing as telling an IG player they have to get within 24" of the enemy to be able to attack at all.
Sisters of Battle only have 2 long range weapons, Hvy Bolter and the Exorcists tank.

You tell an IG player the only weapons he is allowed to use are max 12 Hvy bolters but they count as Heavy Support so he isnt allowed any tanks. Or he can take 12 Missile launchers that can only fire krak missiles with AP1 but they also count as Heavy Support, he can mix them in groups of 4 for each HS choise, so 4Hvy bolters and 8 missile launchers or however he can have 4 of the same weapon in each group.
Then all his troops gets Bolters instead of lasguns, he can also bring a flamer or two and melta guns as well.
But this is all he is allowed to bring. He still gets to use is Orders (which are better than AoF).

Im pretty sure hed tell you you are insane but this is basically what you are saying should happen to the Sisters of Battle.

Before you say something stupid like change their armour try playing them and actually winning with them vs a 5ed army. Then think about what your proposed change would do to the army and the way they play.
SoB are not a gunline army, they are not a CC army, they are a 12" army. They need their armour and the AoF just to be able to stay alive at that range.

Pfft, rant over...

Edit : Before you whine too much about what I wrote try to understand what Im saying. Also 12" is within flamer range, if you are 12" away from me I can move 6" and burn you to a crisp in my turn.

MadCowCrazy, i think you're the one who suggested 5+ armor... So, as I don't remember anyone saying that, a big chunk of your post is irrelevant.

(I did see a suggestion to give them a 4+/5+ invulnerable, which is completely different.)

The idea of the 4+ is to make the stats fit the models better. 4+ would allow the base SoB to be a bit cheaper, and differentiate them from Space Marines more. It's still better armor than the majority of Guardsmen, just not as good as the SM.

Ah, well... Off to see if I can get some of the new drones

I just remembered that a few months before the guardsrelease there was a lot of talk about guards with greatcoats (alá Death corps) and stuff. Might it be possible that would be released as WH/DH guard allies? Just a thought that poped up when I was reading this thread. My heart says nice, my brain says don´t think so. It would be almost like if GW would start a new guards line.

CptM Mograin wrote: I just remembered that a few months before the guardsrelease there was a lot of talk about guards with greatcoats (alá Death corps) and stuff. Might it be possible that would be released as WH/DH guard allies? Just a thought that poped up when I was reading this thread. My heart says nice, my brain says don´t think so. It would be almost like if GW would start a new guards line.

They could, but Guards with Greatcoats were rumored since before the current plastic Cadians, so I'm skeptical...

Yeah me too, but it would be interesting.

Balance wrote:MadCowCrazy, i think you're the one who suggested 5+ armor... So, as I don't remember anyone saying that, a big chunk of your post is irrelevant.

I think he was referring to this post here:

Ostrakon wrote:I think it would be reasonable for Sister to be 4+/5++ due to their faith powers.

WH and DE are the only armies in this game that have really appealed to me, WH specifically, and I feel like I've sold of body parts to be able to afford them all. If they don't get a viable 5th ed upgrade or get "squatted" I can honestly say it'll kill all of my love for this game. :(

Oh and whoever said something about 65 point immolators...its a rhino chasis, when our rhinos drop to 35...immolator drops to 50...

Looking at the detail on the new blood angel plastics I can see grey knight plastics being a real possibility.

Papaskittels wrote:they and dark eldar are going to end up just like squats .... we all know it in the back of our minds as it slowly consumes us into fear like the many tendrels of a venomthrope...

Given the fact that Dark Eldar have sections in Planetstrike and Battle Missions, and that there are strong rumors floating about them being the next release, and given how integral the Inquisition is to the 40K mythos, saying they will be squated means you are either a troll or a moron. I'm willing to bet you're a bit of both, or a trollon.

More on topic, it's ridiculous to think that GW has discontinued two popular model ranges. Granted, they haven't sold as well as they might the past few years, but that's largely because of the age of their army books and the expensiveness of the all-metal model ranges.

I don't think it's that ridiculous. GW doesn't care why an army isn't selling as much, all they know is that it isn't selling and they have to do something about that.

Dropping the line altogether (as opposed to breathing new life into them with, say, a new book and minis which almost always works [except for Chaos but that was GW's screw up]) is not out of the realm of possibility seeing as how they've done it before.

It was done before because space dwarves was a goofy concept, and they played identical to the Imperial Guard. In fact, there are still some squat armies out there that use IG rules. They are just another variant of human.

Dark Eldar cannot be scrapped because they got segments in both Planetstrike and Battle Missions.

Inquisitorial forces cannot be scrapped because that would be tantamount to them scrapping Chaos and the idea of the Emperor. It's just not happening. It's core to the 40k mythos.

Terminus wrote:It was done before because space dwarves was a goofy concept, and they played identical to the Imperial Guard. In fact, there are still some squat armies out there that use IG rules. They are just another variant of human.

As concepts go, Dwarves in Space are no goofier than Elves in Space, Knights in Space, Dark Elves in Space, Vikings in Space, Orcs in Space, Cockroaches in Space, Dolphins in Space, Humans in Space, Vampire Knights in Space, Ogres in Space, Knights in Different Coloured Armour in Space, Halflings in Space, Vampires in Space or Attack of the Terminator.....

The problem was insufficient development of the concept, and the handing off of key elements of the standard Dwarf archetype to the Space Wolves (the Viking tendencies, for those who are interested). Dwarves in Space were certainly a lot more distinct in Epic, for instance, thanks to their unique war machines - I'd love to see a 40k-scale Iron Eagle Gyrocopter, in plastic, roughly the size of the Valkyrie.....

Just for the record: Current rumours supported by credible posters say the following:

1.) Both Grey Knights and Sororitas will get a new Codex EACH (not just one Inquisition Codex), both are currently worked on
2.) All Grey Knight models got a resculpt, many have been spotted by insiders. Standard GKs of course in plastic (Terminators?).
3.) Grey Knights seem to be the autumn SM Codex release. A Storm Raven release is part of that.

Less confirmed is the rumour, that both Codices do not include Inquisition or at least concentrate on non-Inquisition stuff, turning to Ecclesia in the case of Sororitas and that Inquisition will be part of separate rules (supplement? WD?). Still this rumour makes sense to me.

Edit: Some people claim that GW confirmed on GD Italy that GK will be the next Codex after Blood Angels.

Hurray for Grey Knights!

The only downside is that it will invalidate the Daemonhunter codex, so we will be left without a decent Inquisitor to induct. My guard will be screwed on the psychic front, or I'll have to take the very sub-par Witch Hunter Inquisitor. :(

Why oh why did they not give us an in-codex psychic hood? Argh!

Yay for GW invalidating another one of my armies.

Can GW make a final decision on whether to dump Black Templars altogether and then we can be 3 for 3!

Dump a Space Marine army? NEVER. If anything they'll be filling in the holes left by the Inquisition, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Tau, and everything else they don't like/are too lazy to update with moar Space Marines!

I think we should have a "Will X be dumped?"-thread-moratorium from the moment when it is confirmed to be the next Codex, really!