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Orkestra wrote:There's one thing that I definitely think has an impact on the way Americans view the concept of 'Socialism'.

Namely, the Cold War. Even living in Canada it had a fairly large impact on the lives of my parents and others of their generation, so I can hardly imagine the effect it had on Americans. After spending their young lives with the threat of nuclear war hanging over their heads, and learning about how awful Russia's communist regime was (and it was awful), I'm sure that it's fairly ingrained in a lot of Americans that socialists and communists are 'the enemy'. It's simply a product of the political climate in which they were raised.

Exactly. pre-cold war conceptions of communism and socialism in the US were far different. Nowhere else in the world does socialism have such a bad name, the US's answer to that would be the old 'We're right your wrong,' the rest of the worlds answer is propaganda fed to them since Russia's assailance to a major superpower and subsequent enemy.

mattyrm wrote: i admit its a little black and white,

..so it's a racist thing you're saying....


...,

Red, your argument was a little strange, (I wasnt in the army though, shame on you!) I joined the Royal Marines because i was a very angry young man and i wanted to shoot people. That fury got me my green beret and some skills i can use, but what has that got to do with socialism? :S

It is state funded to be sure, but your argument is lost on me. There are some jobs that HAVE to be done and we will always need soldiers, id have joined a mercenary company if the Royal Marines or the army didnt exist. Doing something that happens to be funded by the State has nothing to do with supporting socialist ideals, in fact, im an aggressive man, its the exact opposite isnt it? Or were the all the coppers beating the mine strikers up Socialists?

Point taken with regards to your armed service, no offence intended, armed forces would have been a better choice of words.

My point was actually practically nothing you talked about was to do with socialism per se, it was just more of... wel.. a rant, so to speak, towards some nebulous "system" which you claim to never have taken anything from,despite having spent almost your entire life having things -- your education, your immunisations jabs, the roads you drive on, and indeed pretty much your entire working life being entirely dependent upon the existence of said state.

Yes, there are jobs that will always need to be done. Soldiers, social workers, teachers, firem.. err... let's leave that one alone perhaps.. coroners etc etc. yet I fail to see what actual point you were trying to make.

I have no idea what you mean with regards to socialists and being non aggressive. Pretty certain the Red Army of the USSR, whilst clearly being handicapped with a ridiculous march ( What is it about oddball countries and stupid marching techniques eh ?) weren't exactly a bunch of peaceniks.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Ah fair enough!

Now, on the subject of State Education. As I said earlier, I feel it is very much the State's obligation to ensure Children are educated to one degree or other. As for opting out of your Tax Money funding it if like myself you are currently childless, could it not be argued the percentage of your Taxes that are put into the Education System aren't so much paying for the next generation, but akin to a loan repayment for your own Education? Just throwing out a curve ball there!

Of course, this is treading into the waters akin to Sins Of The Father, and being born into a kind of indentured servitude, owing a debt to your Country/Government which you begin paying when you start work.

If we're making the analogy to payments for individuals, then I think it's fair to say that the parents should be paying, not the child.

Way I see it, it all goes into a big fund, to be distributed to various areas of the society. We have to do this because more level heads must prevail. I was watching the Steven Fry in America series and he travelled to Texas and attended a big charity auction night, the rich folks there were explaining how they felt being able to decide exactly what worthy causes were worth them contributing was the only right way to do things. If that were the case, heroin addicts would never be helped off it, because it's not a popular cause, it's the Panda vs the {insert ugly endangered animal here} problem.

As a further aside, most students in University will end up with a debt to start paying on leaving education. Again the rich are able to avoid this, parents paying for their child through higher education when a working class child cannot be supported in the same way.

Degrees should be a damned sight harder and should come with a suitable means tested grant to ensure we educate and enrich those minds who will go on to contribute to society.

Poor kid gets grant, goes to Uni, becomes Lawyer, Dentist, Psychologist, pays higher taxes due to better earnings than had poor kid left secondary school and become a milkman, state is rewarded with higher return on the school education + grant than just on school education. Why does this not go on? Because Governments are mostly interested with short term rewards due to being transient/voted out.

whatwhat wrote:

Orkestra wrote:There's one thing that I definitely think has an impact on the way Americans view the concept of 'Socialism'.

Namely, the Cold War. Even living in Canada it had a fairly large impact on the lives of my parents and others of their generation, so I can hardly imagine the effect it had on Americans. After spending their young lives with the threat of nuclear war hanging over their heads, and learning about how awful Russia's communist regime was (and it was awful), I'm sure that it's fairly ingrained in a lot of Americans that socialists and communists are 'the enemy'. It's simply a product of the political climate in which they were raised.

Exactly. pre-cold war conceptions of communism and socialism in the US were far different. Nowhere else in the world does socialism have such a bad name, the US's answer to that would be the old 'We're right your wrong,' the rest of the worlds answer is propaganda fed to them since Russia's assailance to a major superpower and subsequent enemy.

I'd imagine it doesn't have such a hot name in the former Warsaw Pact countries either...

Yeah red, the point is mate, that right there is work right? Doing a job in exchange for money, well, whats that got to do with socialism? Im not saying we should revert to tribalism and defend ourselves with sticks.

Anyway, you may have mistook me i wasnt trying to say "I will never EVER take anything from the country ever"

I dont think im some kinda superman, and who knows that the future might bring...

Long Story short, i think we should give people less, not more. Thats why i dont like left leaning socialist types.

I think that if you have paid into the system, then of course, you should get some help. No centre right wing true blue Tory like me is going to think that a man who works hard for ten years and then gets a sudden debilitating injury though no fault of his own should be left to die on a windswept crag.

Lets keep things simple and just say i think we should have a common sense approach, look after the people who genuinelly deserve lookng after, and give far less to those that dont.

I shudder to think how many people living on full time benefits in this country actually deserve or have earned them.... the system is being played like a violin.

To be fair Whatwhat, the US has a longer history of being anti-socialist then the Cold War. Even in the early 20th Century there was a large amount of anti-socialism in the US. Sure Eugene Debbs had started to attract followers, but most Americans are far too individualistic to buy into the whole "group" notion...

mattyrm wrote:Yeah red, the point is mate, that right there is work right? Doing a job in exchange for money, well, whats that got to do with socialism? Im not saying we should revert to tribalism and defend ourselves with sticks.

Anyway, you may have mistook me i wasnt trying to say "I will never EVER take anything from the country ever"

I dont think im some kinda superman, and who knows that the future might bring...

Long Story short, i think we should give people less, not more. Thats why i dont like left leaning socialist types.

I think that if you have paid into the system, then of course, you should get some help. No centre right wing true blue Tory like me is going to think that a man who works hard for ten years and then gets a sudden debilitating injury though no fault of his own should be left to die on a windswept crag.

Lets keep things simple and just say i think we should have a common sense approach, look after the people who genuinelly deserve lookng after, and give far less to those that dont.

I shudder to think how many people living on full time benefits in this country actually deserve or have earned them.... the system is being played like a violin.

In the US the Liberals claim that people don't abuse the system so the system should give even MORE handouts. See the HCR Bill for a fine example of people able to get MA currently, even with private insurers existing, to STILL being able to receive MA but at the expense of those people working being FORCED to buy insurance or paying a fine for it.

It's change alright, but it only changes what the working man has to go through.

This new HCR Bill also does not mean "free" healthcare. I see lots of people spout on about "free" healthcare in Canada and I have to laugh. I pay 7% sales tax on anything that isn't considered a grocery item (pop and candy being the sole exception) and clothing items are also not taxed. If I go north 3 hours to Manitoba, Canada I'll be paying about 12% tax on those same items. If the extra 5% tax is going to help pay for healthcare than I don't see how it's free. It might be free in the sense that you walk into a doctor and get your broken arm reset for no expense to you but by paying 5% more for a trip to Subway or BK than someone living in the US, over the course of your life you'll will pay a lot more in extra taxes than your arm cost you to fix (or a lot more than you would having to BUY healthcare coverage every month) so over the course of 40 years you will pay more for your "free" medical care than I will having to go through a private insurer.

This is a fairly good point. However, the benefit of this (just like insurance in any form) is that Canadians rarely find themselves bankrupt to pay for medical costs, unlike the states. Yes, it adds up to being a lot of money (though, again, in Conservative Alberta we pay 5% and that's all), but it's just a part of your cost of living. Everyone pays that extra bit every time they buy something, and businesses and employers know it just like other people. Minimum wage is higher to compensate for it, and it's a known quantity that's just there all of the time, rather than being surprised by a gigantic medical bill when suddenly you discover you have cancer.

Basically, the GST and PST don't actually have an impact on our financial situations, because it's just a part of the cost of living in Canada. Just like how in some cities rents are high, or in other places food can be more expensive. It's a known quantity, which I find preferable to the alternative. YMMV.

Frazzled wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Orkestra wrote:There's one thing that I definitely think has an impact on the way Americans view the concept of 'Socialism'.

Namely, the Cold War. Even living in Canada it had a fairly large impact on the lives of my parents and others of their generation, so I can hardly imagine the effect it had on Americans. After spending their young lives with the threat of nuclear war hanging over their heads, and learning about how awful Russia's communist regime was (and it was awful), I'm sure that it's fairly ingrained in a lot of Americans that socialists and communists are 'the enemy'. It's simply a product of the political climate in which they were raised.

Exactly. pre-cold war conceptions of communism and socialism in the US were far different. Nowhere else in the world does socialism have such a bad name, the US's answer to that would be the old 'We're right your wrong,' the rest of the worlds answer is propaganda fed to them since Russia's assailance to a major superpower and subsequent enemy.

I'd imagine it doesn't have such a hot name in the former Warsaw Pact countries either...

Well there you go, more anti-socialism based on bitter relations with socialist states. My point exactly.

mattyrm wrote:Yeah red, the point is mate, that right there is work right? Doing a job in exchange for money, well, whats that got to do with socialism? Im not saying we should revert to tribalism and defend ourselves with sticks.

Anyway, you may have mistook me i wasnt trying to say "I will never EVER take anything from the country ever"

I dont think im some kinda superman, and who knows that the future might bring...

Long Story short, i think we should give people less, not more. Thats why i dont like left leaning socialist types.

I think that if you have paid into the system, then of course, you should get some help. No centre right wing true blue Tory like me is going to think that a man who works hard for ten years and then gets a sudden debilitating injury though no fault of his own should be left to die on a windswept crag.

Lets keep things simple and just say i think we should have a common sense approach, look after the people who genuinelly deserve lookng after, and give far less to those that dont.

I shudder to think how many people living on full time benefits in this country actually deserve or have earned them.... the system is being played like a violin.

Quite, I wasn't suggestting you were going as far as the old "the poor should catch fish from the thames and eat their young" type argument.

Thing is though, I would say it's quite an awkward task to decide who exactly "genuinely deserves looking after" and, more pertinely, to what degree. It's very easy to point out, to use an earlier example, transexual who won a courtcase and hold it up to decry everything that is wrong with "the system", but that is a very rare event -- that is of course why it is ( in a manner of speaking) "news".

NO system is perfect, obviously, and people will always abuse it or push their luck.

That said though I agree there are. of course, people who do endlessly take and never contribute in any way as such.

This is one of the reasons why I generally think it's advisable for a new Govt. every X years, especially if the opposition has been especially woeful in holding the governing party in power. Extremists from both sides of the spectrum are to be avoided.

It's just when you state things like

i have always been a healthy bloke, i am smart, i have never struggled with finding work, and at the age of 30 i have never ever had a single penny from the system.

it seems kinda odd considering "the system" actually clothed, fed, housed and would have taken care of (most..., I'm sure there's limits.. I must confess to having no idea to the Royal Marines policy with regards to sex changes ) your medical needs.

I'm sure you would have tried[/] to find other employment, and as you're a Dakka member you're clearly at least 12% smarter than the average person, boffins have proven it (17.5% for DCMs oddly enough) probably succeeded, but you can't say you [i]would have done with any degree of certainty.

I've got some family in parts of the NE of England and there genuinely is next to nothing workwise there for them. They can't move house as they can't sell, they've got no savings as they never earned enough and any they had would have been used up long ago. And then they switch on the telly and are told they're ALL lazy or worthless... that aint right.

It's a hidden cost, like so many other hidden costs and it COULD be handy when you need it but here in the states I'm mostly covered in my day to day life with insurance I HAVE to have. I drive a car so I must have auto. No matter the coverage (full or liability) I personally am covered if I get hurt in an auto accident. My home owners covers me if I get hurt on my property and workmens comp (as lousy as that is) covers me if I get hurt at work.

I've also heard more horror stories about health care in Canada than I have in the US. Like clinics and hospitals not being open on Sunday or sitting in a waiting room for 10 hours because a broken arm isn't as vital as someone bleeding out their anus. I've had long hospital room stays but I've never had to wait more than 45 minutes even on the busiest of days and I can get into the clinic/hospital 24/7, 365.

I'm sure that is an isolated incident in Canada but the fact that in some cities/provinces clinics are closed on Sunday is baffling.

Fateweaver wrote:It's a hidden cost, like so many other hidden costs and it COULD be handy when you need it but here in the states I'm mostly covered in my day to day life with insurance I HAVE to have. I drive a car so I must have auto. No matter the coverage (full or liability) I personally am covered if I get hurt in an auto accident. My home owners covers me if I get hurt on my property and workmens comp (as lousy as that is) covers me if I get hurt at work.

I've also heard more horror stories about health care in Canada than I have in the US. Like clinics and hospitals not being open on Sunday or sitting in a waiting room for 10 hours because a broken arm isn't as vital as someone bleeding out their anus. I've had long hospital room stays but I've never had to wait more than 45 minutes even on the busiest of days and I can get into the clinic/hospital 24/7, 365.

I'm sure that is an isolated incident in Canada but the fact that in some cities/provinces clinics are closed on Sunday is baffling.

The only reason you skip those health care ques in the US is because you don't have to wait for the poor foke who can't afford insurance. Forgive socialism for caring.

whatwhat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Orkestra wrote:There's one thing that I definitely think has an impact on the way Americans view the concept of 'Socialism'.

Namely, the Cold War. Even living in Canada it had a fairly large impact on the lives of my parents and others of their generation, so I can hardly imagine the effect it had on Americans. After spending their young lives with the threat of nuclear war hanging over their heads, and learning about how awful Russia's communist regime was (and it was awful), I'm sure that it's fairly ingrained in a lot of Americans that socialists and communists are 'the enemy'. It's simply a product of the political climate in which they were raised.

Exactly. pre-cold war conceptions of communism and socialism in the US were far different. Nowhere else in the world does socialism have such a bad name, the US's answer to that would be the old 'We're right your wrong,' the rest of the worlds answer is propaganda fed to them since Russia's assailance to a major superpower and subsequent enemy.

I'd imagine it doesn't have such a hot name in the former Warsaw Pact countries either...

Well there you go, more anti-socialism based on bitter relations with socialist states. My point exactly.

Wait, you do realize who the Warsaw Pact was right?

@Fateweaver: You're absolutely correct that there are many horror stories about Canadian hospitals. I'm not going to stand up and shout out about how good it is, because I've sat in waiting rooms for many hours. I once waited overnight in the waiting room (20 hours straight) because that was the only way to get into a program I needed to be a part of. On Monday I took my mother to the hospital for a follow up appointment from her surgery, and it was 2 and a half hours after her scheduled time that they finally saw her.

I won't argue the quality, but I do disagree that GST/PST is a 'hidden cost'. Everyone knows that they pay GST, and it's just a little extra on every purchase. Everyone who is writing up their budget knows to add on that 5% (or more in other provinces) so that things balance out.

But yes, Health care in Canada, while not as expensive, can be atrociously slow. That's partially due to lack of funding, and partially due to a lack of nurses/doctors (which ties into funding because of how little we can pay compared to private clinics/other countries). Our government is in a bind right now with regards to health care because most canadians rabidly oppose privatization of health care, but don't want to fork out the cash to make it really work.

The whole "take a number" thing is BS. It's BS at the DMV or anywhere else, it's BS at a clinic.

If I walk into a clinic in pain because my arm is broken I should be admitted right away, not made to wait behind 15 other people their to get weight loss meds or diabetes meds or anything that CAN wait a few hours.

I live in a city where probably 80% of the people in the clinic daily are on some sort of welfare assisted health care (not just Medicare) and yet I've never seen anyone with a broken ANYTHING have to wait more than 10 minutes. I guess I'm lucky in that the clinic and hospital in my town know how to prioritize.

Frazzled wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Orkestra wrote:There's one thing that I definitely think has an impact on the way Americans view the concept of 'Socialism'.

Namely, the Cold War. Even living in Canada it had a fairly large impact on the lives of my parents and others of their generation, so I can hardly imagine the effect it had on Americans. After spending their young lives with the threat of nuclear war hanging over their heads, and learning about how awful Russia's communist regime was (and it was awful), I'm sure that it's fairly ingrained in a lot of Americans that socialists and communists are 'the enemy'. It's simply a product of the political climate in which they were raised.

Exactly. pre-cold war conceptions of communism and socialism in the US were far different. Nowhere else in the world does socialism have such a bad name, the US's answer to that would be the old 'We're right your wrong,' the rest of the worlds answer is propaganda fed to them since Russia's assailance to a major superpower and subsequent enemy.

I'd imagine it doesn't have such a hot name in the former Warsaw Pact countries either...

Well there you go, more anti-socialism based on bitter relations with socialist states. My point exactly.

Wait, you do realize who the Warsaw Pact was right?

In effect, a military treaty designed to give Russia power over the forces of it's soviet states. And?

Fateweaver wrote:The whole "take a number" thing is BS. It's BS at the DMV or anywhere else, it's BS at a clinic.

If I walk into a clinic in pain because my arm is broken I should be admitted right away, not made to wait behind 15 other people their to get weight loss meds or diabetes meds or anything that CAN wait a few hours.

I live in a city where probably 80% of the people in the clinic daily are on some sort of welfare assisted health care (not just Medicare) and yet I've never seen anyone with a broken ANYTHING have to wait more than 10 minutes. I guess I'm lucky in that the clinic and hospital in my town know how to prioritize.

When I'm taking about ques I'm not talking about the flipping emergency room.

Fateweaver wrote:I live in a city where probably 80% of the people in the clinic daily are on some sort of welfare assisted health care (not just Medicare) and yet I've never seen anyone with a broken ANYTHING have to wait more than 10 minutes. I guess I'm lucky in that the clinic and hospital in my town know how to prioritize.

Sounds like that is the case actually. 10 minutes would have to be the shortest waiting time I have ever had in a doctors office, and that happened to be a dentists, on a really empty day. The clinics I went to when I was homeless, were next to useless, and you stood a chance of getting sick just by being there.

The shortest time I have ever had to wait to actually receive any serious medical treatment (i.e. not the dentist), was at least 3 hours. If I don't have a full day to spare, it may be a bad idea to try and go to any form of health service. The longest time I ever spent in the ER waiting, was in the region of 10 hours. Your luck if it is fast, and unlucky if it is slow, but there I would simply have to see the numbers comparing service in both countries, before jumping to broad conclusions.

Orkestra wrote:@Fateweaver: You're absolutely correct that there are many horror stories about Canadian hospitals. I'm not going to stand up and shout out about how good it is, because I've sat in waiting rooms for many hours. I once waited overnight in the waiting room (20 hours straight) because that was the only way to get into a program I needed to be a part of. On Monday I took my mother to the hospital for a follow up appointment from her surgery, and it was 2 and a half hours after her scheduled time that they finally saw her.

I won't argue the quality, but I do disagree that GST/PST is a 'hidden cost'. Everyone knows that they pay GST, and it's just a little extra on every purchase. Everyone who is writing up their budget knows to add on that 5% (or more in other provinces) so that things balance out.

But yes, Health care in Canada, while not as expensive, can be atrociously slow. That's partially due to lack of funding, and partially due to a lack of nurses/doctors (which ties into funding because of how little we can pay compared to private clinics/other countries). Our government is in a bind right now with regards to health care because most canadians rabidly oppose privatization of health care, but don't want to fork out the cash to make it really work.

So you can see how the government take over of Healthcare cannot be a good thing. It's going to end up like the Canadian health care. I know we have horror stories ourselves but those mostly involve hospitals in poorer communities being understaffed, staff being underpaid so they just don't care, or doctors practicing illegally because they can stay low key.

No system is perfect but the current system is a lot better than the NWO system. Do I think doctors get paid too much? Not sure. It depends on the definition of TOO much. Most get paid less than lawyers and lawyers DO get paid too much (sorry Frazz) so comparing doctor wages to lawyer wages makes me think doctors should get more. Comparing their wages to a gas jockey at BP would incline a person thinking they get paid too much so should get paid LESS. Do I like paying $100 for 12 little pills for a sinus infection? Guess I'd have to know the cost to make those pills. If they cost a nickel a piece to produce than $100 IS way too much for $.60 worth of medicine. If on the other hand it costs the pharmacy $75 to purchase those same 12 pills from their pharmaceutical company than $25 mark up, while high, is not unreasonable.

I just don't see any good coming of this Bill. Those making millions and billions aren't going to be TOO hurt forking over $100's or $1,000's per month for insurance they don't need but if I was Warren Buffet or Bill Gates or Steve Jobs I'd still be annoyed.

Wrexasaur wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:I live in a city where probably 80% of the people in the clinic daily are on some sort of welfare assisted health care (not just Medicare) and yet I've never seen anyone with a broken ANYTHING have to wait more than 10 minutes. I guess I'm lucky in that the clinic and hospital in my town know how to prioritize.

Sounds like that is the case actually. 10 minutes would have to be the shortest waiting time I have ever had in a doctors office, and that happened to be a dentists, on a really empty day. The clinics I went to when I was homeless, were next to useless, and you stood a chance of getting sick just by being there.

The shortest time I have ever had to wait to actually receive any serious medical treatment (i.e. not the dentist), was at least 3 hours. If I don't have a full day to spare, it may be a bad idea to try and go to any form of health service. The longest time I ever spent in the ER waiting, was in the region of 10 hours. Your luck if it is fast, and unlucky if it is slow, but there I would simply have to see the numbers comparing service in both countries, before jumping to broad conclusions.

I've got awesome pseudo Canadia Eh style insurance. If I drop into a clinic I have to wait that kind of time. It doesn't matter. I always have to get an appointment unless I want to wait for hours. It should be expected that if you are a walk in you're going to wait unless there's something serious.

Fatevweaver wrote:So you can see how the government take over of Healthcare cannot be a good thing. It's going to end up like the Canadian health care. I know we have horror stories ourselves but those mostly involve hospitals in poorer communities being understaffed, staff being underpaid so they just don't care, or doctors practicing illegally because they can stay low key.

Actually, I think the opposite - that the Canadian government and people should put in the money to make it work. I think that the problem is that it isn't 'socialist' enough up here. I can see that there are flaws, but if Canada went the other way, and privatized health care, it would have a really detrimental effect on the people who really need that care. At the moment, people who need medical aid to survive (including cancer treatment, etc.) are able to get that, and not have to pay through the nose for it. This is a good thing. The problem is that the less vital treatments are being pushed to the side because we don't have the extra capacity for them that more funding would bring.

In summary, yeah, long wait times are irritating, but they won't kill me or make me bankrupt, which is what the system is currently protecting me from.
(Also, in the ER, they generally do a good job of prioritizing, the problem is just that there were so many people who needed help right now that anyone conscious and breathing could expect to wait a while)

whatwhat wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:It's a hidden cost, like so many other hidden costs and it COULD be handy when you need it but here in the states I'm mostly covered in my day to day life with insurance I HAVE to have. I drive a car so I must have auto. No matter the coverage (full or liability) I personally am covered if I get hurt in an auto accident. My home owners covers me if I get hurt on my property and workmens comp (as lousy as that is) covers me if I get hurt at work.

I've also heard more horror stories about health care in Canada than I have in the US. Like clinics and hospitals not being open on Sunday or sitting in a waiting room for 10 hours because a broken arm isn't as vital as someone bleeding out their anus. I've had long hospital room stays but I've never had to wait more than 45 minutes even on the busiest of days and I can get into the clinic/hospital 24/7, 365.

I'm sure that is an isolated incident in Canada but the fact that in some cities/provinces clinics are closed on Sunday is baffling.

The only reason you skip those health care ques in the US is because you don't have to wait for the poor foke who can't afford insurance. Forgive socialism for caring.

And the flaming begins. Oh well it was a fun discussion while it lasted.

Oh yeah right, I forgot the difference between a flame and a counterpoint becomes blurred when the point in question disagrees with your beliefs, and you find it hard to argue against.

So, Socialism eh? I have to say, I really don't understand the US objection to this style of Government. Okay, Britain isn't exactly a Socialist Country in the same way as France, but what with the NHS etc, we do have a definite Socialist Infrastructure. Having grown up with it, I find myself somewhat unable to comprehend why you would object to such things as Free Healthcare, Social Housing etc. Quick caveat, I am not saying you are wrong for objecting/not wanting it, I am just putting a question out there.

People dislike socialism because they don't know what the word means. It's a boogeyman that frames all things that conservatives dislike, despite being prevalent within every government in todays world.

Nah...the flaming started with this:

Fateweaver wrote:(and I'm sure I'll be flamed for not being a UC flunkie and knowing the facts exactly)

But hey, who's counting?

In any case, I'm tired of the long lines myself. And with an additional 30-35 million people being added to the system, the lines will only get longer. Sadly, I don't see any solution to this.

pombe wrote:Nah...the flaming started with this:

Fateweaver wrote:(and I'm sure I'll be flamed for not being a UC flunkie and knowing the facts exactly)

But hey, who's counting?

In any case, I'm tired of the long lines myself. And with an additional 30-35 million people being added to the system, the lines will only get longer. Sadly, I don't see any solution to this.

More lines with less people in them. As populations grow so too is the capability of their governments and economies to manage them. Long lines do not come from inherent flaws within the concept but instead within the people themselves and the structure of their government.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

So you can see how the government take over of Healthcare cannot be a good thing. It's going to end up like the Canadian health care.

You mean like how when I went into the ER when I was 13 after getting hit in the face with a golf club (rather painful experience) had my injury misdiagnosed after waiting for two hours bleeding out of my face then getting charged thousands for it? Or how about how I was placed on six different medications for ADHD and depression over a period of years by my doctor (I later found out he was compensated for each as well as each EKG I had) despite having every single part of it unnecessary (Most symptoms went away when I began refusing "treatment")?

Yeah, it's real terrible up there compared to the fething beacon of efficiency and care we have here.

So you can see how the government take over of Healthcare cannot be a good thing. It's going to end up like the Canadian health care. I know we have horror stories ourselves but those mostly involve hospitals in poorer communities being understaffed, staff being underpaid so they just don't care, or doctors practicing illegally because they can stay low key.

Funny then how care quality per dollar spent is inversely proportional to the number of experts and high end machinery in hospitals in America.

No system is perfect but the current system is a lot better than the NWO system. Do I think doctors get paid too much? Not sure. It depends on the definition of TOO much. Most get paid less than lawyers and lawyers DO get paid too much (sorry Frazz) so comparing doctor wages to lawyer wages makes me think doctors should get more.

How is the "current system" which would be universally bankrupt within 20 years better? Also how do doctors deserve more? Thats a moralistic argument based on the fact that you dislike lawers and seem to like doctors, and it seems to be unrelated to the work or schooling involved in either.

Do I like paying $100 for 12 little pills for a sinus infection? Guess I'd have to know the cost to make those pills.

Likely less than a dollar per bottle manufactured and filled. Most biotech costs come from advertising, research, and legal issues.

If on the other hand it costs the pharmacy $75 to purchase those same 12 pills from their pharmaceutical company than $25 mark up, while high, is not unreasonable.

Is it not unreasonable for the manufacturer to charge a 7,500% markup on the product? That makes sense in the diamond industry, but pharmaceuticals are not a luxury item.

So we should be like all the other countries in the world?

So we should become the USSA, France should become the USSF, and GB should become the USSGB.

Sounds like I'm naming my next battleship or something.

I know. Guns are illegal in Oz so we should ban guns too.

In this case, the long lines come from not having enough clinicians, equipment, rooms/beds, which sadly all cost money. Sure, there'll be an additional 30-35 million customers (mostly belonging to a low risk group), but with healthcare now being unable to drop people who need expensive treatments or deny people based on pre-existing conditions (which are both GOOD things), I'm wondering how the money will balance out.

Too bad we aren't allowed to see the record/budget sheets of these companies to see how the money is really being spent.

Fateweaver wrote:So we should be like all the other countries in the world?

So we should become the USSA, France should become the USSF, and GB should become the USSGB.

Sounds like I'm naming my next battleship or something.

I know. Guns are illegal in Oz so we should ban guns too.

Well good governance is applying what works and throwing out what doesn't. We have plenty of case studies for good and effective social healthcare (japan and canada for instance) and no case studies for good and effective privatized healthcare. Americas system is not the default, our system is entirely unique and it's failing miserably. It spends far more per capita than any other country, gives worse care than many, and is bankrupting the country quickly.

If you have a better idea than pursuing what works feel free to say so.

In this case, the long lines come from not having enough clinicians, equipment, rooms/beds, which sadly all cost money. Sure, there'll be an additional 30-35 million customers (mostly belonging to a low risk group), but with healthcare now being unable to drop people who need expensive treatments or deny people based on pre-existing conditions (which are both GOOD things), I'm wondering how the money will balance out.

Medicare has the same problem, it's providing ludicrous amounts of money for a population more prone to expensive chronic illness than any other, and it's doing it regardless of capability or cost. Why don't people want to rush to cut it?

Well, MN has the best clinic in the world (the Mayo) and texas, is well texas so the only 2 states that peoples opinions should matter in is Mn (best hospital bar none) and Texas (more guns than most sovereign countries).

Cali doesn't matter except to teen girls who want to know the latest fashions and to crackpots who believe Matt Damon's and Sean Penn's view of the US actually matters.

Texas also has MD Anderson, best cancer and heart center in the world. Ask all the Latin American dictators who fly here.