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hands_miranda wrote: Maybe I've been playing at the right events, but I've never run into anything like dice cheating at any event I've gone to. I honestly think that a lot of this "cheater fever" going on right now is incredibly ridiculous. Why should we go through so much effort to skim off what is an incredibly small amount of cheating just seems stupid.

I don't call providing a 3$ block of dice, easily purchased in bulk for an event that takes almost a year to plan in advance and people bring armies that often take years to model and paint 'so much effort'. In fact, it seems like minimal easy effort for a heck of a lot of payoff in game consistency and souvenirs.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for opponents to use the exact same type of dice for every single roll. I also think it is perfectly reasonable for both opponents to be using the same pool of dice. I also think it is reasonable for an event to require all rolls to be made on a similar type of dice, which would be the default dice provided by GW as we all know different dice roll different ways and impact the outcome.

I wonder how many people would 'trust' me if I had a special tapemeasure that I brought out for measuring distances for a specific unit and used a regular tapemeasure for all other measurements. And when you ask to use my tapemeasure I say 'no'. If you had a problem with it my response was "what? you think my tapemeasure is modified for cheating? cheating doesn't happen! I am marking your sportsmanship down for calling me a cheater!" Using special dice for special rolls, even if they are just innocent dice and you are not loading them or doing special rolling is just as absurd to me, and is frankly rude. If it is good enough to roll in bulk for your attacks, it is good enough to roll for that single cover save or leadership test.

Again, I think people are missing part of the point. I mean... I don't know the motivation for HOD's question. Maybe it was to try and curb dice cheating. But as I said before to me it's more about equalizing the playing field. They don't allow people to bring super duper golf clubs to golf tournies either. Pro golfers are required to use clubs that meet a certain criteria. This is to prevent people from gaining an advantage form using the "super duper big birtha club" of the month.

They also banned stickum from pro football, because the balls were literally hitting the uniform and sticking without the players having to actually catch the ball. Again not cheat prevention but equalizing the playing field.

It would kind of suck for me, because I just ordered a bunch of those custom ork dice, and I wouldn't be able to use them if dice were assigned.

GG

What Grog says.

Dice cheating isn't even the most prevalent form of cheating, IMO, this is preventative. There is no cure, after all.

Cheaters will always cheat, somehow. Of course, if we make it difficult enough, maybe they'll go play something else, and we won't have to care.

nkelsch wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:Honestly, Dash, I do have a problem with that.
If the tournament is providing dice for everyone (regardless of who pays for it), I'm okay with it. If, on the other hand, they tell me that *I* have to bring chessex dice, I'm going to be pretty p.o.ed. It's pretty common knowledge that chessex dice roll an abnormal amount of 1's.
I'll bring my own dice, but I'm bringing square-edged Koplow dice.

then I am going to request that you use a dice cup for rolling since it is also common knowledge that hard-edge dice can be rolled in such a way to control the outcome when not thrown down a distance on a flat surface. Since board space and wargaming usually does 'shake and drop' the rounded dice help make up for the fact that we are not capable of rolling properly.

One thing rounded wargaming dice do is roll like crap, but at least you can't control the outcome and everyone is in the same boat. You showing up to an event with hard-edged dice and refusing to use the same gear everyone else is using makes you suspicious and rude. If the event says rounded dice need to be used, then they need to be used. The are the only fair dice that can be rolled en masse and shake and dropped. Hard edge dice require a rolling box, dice cups and a sideways roll across a distance to be actually 'fair' where rounded dice don't.

I'm not bringing a "dice cup" to a tourney, because I'm playing 40K, not yahtzee.
That being said, if you had a cup and asked me to roll using it for the reasons you give, I'd do it without a complaint. I'd ding your sportsmanship... but I'd do it.
Let me explain the "ding," though, before people think it's a knee-jerf reaction.
If you HAVEN'T seen how I roll my dice and you ask me this, then you are making assumptions about how I'm going to roll my dice without giving me the benefit of the doubt.
If you've seen me roll my dice, you'll know there's no reasonable way I could be cheating. I practically hurl my dice.
Now, I'm exaggerating for effect, of course. I don't *hurl* my dice... but I don't "drop" them, either. My dice ROLL across the table.
If I'm rolling one or two dice, I do it from a distance, and I make certain that they're spinning in the air before they hit the table.
So, someone seeing me roll my dice but asking me to use the cup anyway might as well just be telling me, "I see how you're rolling. it looks legit, but I want to make you do this anyway." So, *ding.*

Also, if an event is not providing the dice, but still tells me what kind of dice I must use, I wouldn't attend in the first place. There's enough expense involved with a tourney to make a requisite purchase of dice for this *one* tourney that I'll never use again enough of a slap to make it not worth it to me.

That, of course, is my opinion. I know it varies from some others.

nkelsch wrote:

Also, on a separate note, I'm curious. Why does everyone keep saying "pip facing" dice? What would be wrong with dice numbered 1 - 6?

The main beef is people get 'custom' dice with one of the 6 sides being a logo. Some dice make the 1 a logo. Some make a 6 the logo. It is not consistent. When rolling quickly, it is not uncommon for people to forget which are the logos, 1s or 6s which then requires inspection of the dice. Some even put symbols on the dice that make the reading of the faces hard to do. It is a royal pain, especially when someone has 'these dice the large logo is a 1, these dice it is a 6, I collect lucky dice!'

What he means is, he will pretend the logo will be whatever he needed to roll at the time and call you a jerk for thinking he would lie about it. IE: preemptive sportsmanship assault.

How hard is it to just use simple, GW-style white rounded dice?

Now, I understad all that about custom dice. I've commissioned custom dice before and given them to a buddy as a gift. He uses them on a regular (though not constant) basis.
So, I get that.
I wasn't asking about thise dice. I specifically referred to dice numbered 1-6. You know... numbers instead of pips.
I'm asking why people always refer to "pip" dice as acceptable, but not those.


Eric


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:
I wonder how many people would 'trust' me if I had a special tapemeasure that I brought out for measuring distances for a specific unit and used a regular tapemeasure for all other measurements. And when you ask to use my tapemeasure I say 'no'. If you had a problem with it my response was "what? you think my tapemeasure is modified for cheating? cheating doesn't happen! I am marking your sportsmanship down for calling me a cheater!" Using special dice for special rolls, even if they are just innocent dice and you are not loading them or doing special rolling is just as absurd to me, and is frankly rude. If it is good enough to roll in bulk for your attacks, it is good enough to roll for that single cover save or leadership test.

Would you make that tape measure available for examination at your opponent's request? Just to ensure legitimacy?
If the answer is "yes," then I'd have no problem with you having a separate tape measure for each unit of your army, really.

That's what it comes down to for me. I don't care what anyone does, as long as (a) it's legit or (b) they're willing to be scrutinized.

Want to test my dice to prove they aren't loaded? Fine. Test away. Before the game, after it, during it... I don't mind.

Want to share my dice during the game? Sorry. Old school dice superstitions here.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:
I wasn't asking about thise dice. I specifically referred to dice numbered 1-6. You know... numbers instead of pips.
I'm asking why people always refer to "pip" dice as acceptable, but not those.

Because most people use pips and are used to visually registering pips quikcly. If someone is not used to numbers and not expecting numbers, they need to visually go over your dice to verify the results rolled are what is rolled. People are used to pips and this happens almost subconsciously for players. Numbers, not so much. Slows down the game, more 'what was the result, let me look' and more 'are you sure that was a 5+?'

Want to share my dice during the game? Sorry. Old school dice superstitions here.

Your superstition is already unsportsmanlike and unwelcome at many events as you are forced to share dice if asked, and i fyou punish an opponent because they want to, then that makes you, yet again the poor spore and rude. You maintain an unreasonable double standard by refusing to use rounded dice because 'common knowledge' is they roll more 1's but continue to expect unquestioned use square-edged dice which is 'common knowledge' that they are more prone to controlling the outcome of the dice.

The only *FAIR* way to handle this so people like you do not unreasonably threaten or bully players under threat of sportsmanship penalties is to have the event staff set the standard and make it consistent and fair to all people. You may not like it, but at least it is not your opponent's fault and you can't punish them directly for you being forced to use a single type of rounded dice and a common dicepool.

People like you are why this needs to happen because your dice habits and superstitions are rude and hurt the game and you punish opponents if they question it.

Edit: And there are way to many techniques for someone who is aware of techniques to even identify all of them. What they can identify is that the only way to make square dice legit is dice cups and rolling trays. Half of the technique is to shake them in your hand in such a way that your opponent 'thinks' they are being shaken around via the sound, but instead they are not. Rounded edge dice are such garbage it makes it very hard for most dice techniques to be effective, especially on wargaming surfaces. So there is *NO POSSIBLE WAY* for someone to watch you roll and assume you are not cheating. All they see is someone with a hard-on for square-edged dice which is suspicious which then requires people to begin watching the rolling techniques.

The only way to really legitimize all dice rolling is with dice cups... which interesting enough, is what the plastic square container dice cubes come in is perfect for. When rolling 2 or less dice, you should use a dice cup. 5+ dice is pretty much impossible to control the outcome so hands become acceptable.

And I do think this is an interesting part of the 29% 1's rounded dice study:

One thing to consider is that all games workshop games (and most boardgames in general) are designed with these dice and so should reflect this in the gameplay accordingly. If you see somebody using games workshop dice for leadership tests and vegas style dice for everything else, then you can be sure that they are trying to get an unfair advantage though! Try to ensure you are using the same dice as your opponent.

The article that many people claim utter scientific hatred of rounded wargaming dice from explicitly says how these dice behaviors are basically unfair to your opponent and are suspect. If everyone had the exact same dice and was using dicecups for any roll of dice 2 or less, then I would be all fine for statistically superior casino dice for all. As long as it was consistent and fair for all people. If you hate rounded dice, then the 'sporting' thing would be to say:

"Hey opponent, chessex rounded dice roll more 1's than normal. I have brought square dice which are more accurate for being random, I brought enough for both of us so this can be a fair game and we are using the same type of dice. And to avoid dice rolling issues that can be exploited with square dice, whenever one of us rolls something with 2 or less dice, we will use the container as a dice cup."

That is sporting, shows actual drive to have a fair game and most people will accept. If they decline the offer to use thier inferior dice, then it isn't your fault as they roll 29% 1s. You gave them an option of using a completely fair and balanced outcome with no possible motivation of deception or gaining an advantage. I actually think knowing the flaws of chessex dice and sitting there as your opponent rolls with an inferior dice while you use a dice that will provide better results is inherently dishonest and unsportsmanlike. You explicitly bring a dice which you *KNOW* will roll higher than your opponent and then refuse to let him use your dice? Because he wasn't smart enough to go buy them like you? Having unbalanced advantage is ok if he doesn't know he is at a disadvantage? What justification makes it ok since cat is out of the bag, you use special dice explicitly to roll 'better' than rounded dice.

That is all people want. A consistent equal standard. Be it crap chessex dice, or perfectly balanced casino dice. As long as everyone is using the same thing in the same way it is all fine.

nkelsch wrote:Your superstition is already unsportsmanlike and unwelcome at many events as you are forced to share dice if asked, and i fyou punish an opponent because they want to, then that makes you, yet again the poor spore and rude. You maintain an unreasonable double standard by refusing to use rounded dice because 'common knowledge' is they roll more 1's but continue to expect unquestioned use square-edged dice which is 'common knowledge' that they are more prone to controlling the outcome of the dice.

The only *FAIR* way to handle this so people like you do not unreasonably threaten or bully players under threat of sportsmanship penalties is to have the event staff set the standard and make it consistent and fair to all people. You may not like it, but at least it is not your opponent's fault and you can't punish them directly for you being forced to use a single type of rounded dice and a common dicepool.

People like you are why this needs to happen because your dice habits and superstitions are rude and hurt the game and you punish opponents if they question it.

This is pretty much what I wanted to say, I just couldn't put it into words for some reason(so I just didn't post for fear of not getting across what I wanted to).

Thank you, nkelsch.

Another heartwarming thread...

nkelsch wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:
I wasn't asking about thise dice. I specifically referred to dice numbered 1-6. You know... numbers instead of pips.
I'm asking why people always refer to "pip" dice as acceptable, but not those.

Because most people use pips and are used to visually registering pips quikcly. If someone is not used to numbers and not expecting numbers, they need to visually go over your dice to verify the results rolled are what is rolled. People are used to pips and this happens almost subconsciously for players. Numbers, not so much. Slows down the game, more 'what was the result, let me look' and more 'are you sure that was a 5+?'

Wait, what? number dice are unacceptable? They are so much easier to read and I can pick through them much easier. Just because everyone uses pip dice doesn't mean I have to.

I'm all for the other stuff you said, but pip only dice is getting into the ridiculous.

I don't understand the slippery slope arguments presented in the thread. Imo major tournaments should definitely issue dice. Major tournaments usually throw in some kind of souvenir bag so the dice can be just that, extra goodies in addition to being another measure to relieve concerns of dice cheaters. Reasons for standard issue dice:

1. Its fair
2. They're extra goodies especially if they're somehow custom for the tournament
3. Another measure to prevent cheating (and although its not the same, just look at the US Golden Daemon cheating controversy as an example that cheating is not as rare as it may be percieved and thats not even the gaming part)

Hell, you could just leave 'em on the table like already mentioned to cut down on costs. Standardized dice help prevent a very exploitable part of any dice game.

As for the whole "there's not that many cheaters at tournaments"...I think people would be surprised since not only is it competitive but at major tournaments there can be some hefty prizes that might be worth a few bucks of fixed dice to help get.

If a prize is a Forgeworld piece worth hundreds of dollars, people are gonna cheat.

Elessar wrote:....Dice cheating isn't even the most prevalent form of cheating, IMO, this is preventative. There is no cure, after all.

Cheaters will always cheat, somehow....

I have no data to back this up, because I haven't ever run into someone dice cheating or even pulling the square edged dice "slide/drop" on me. But I have seen a lot of other stuff, like slipping in extra models that aren't on the list, or conveniently forgetting pertinent rules or movement cheating.

So I would tend to believe that dice cheating is rather rare, compared to other types of cheating. This is why I think dice "cheating" prevention shouldn't be the sole reason for dice assignage, but more of a possible side benefit.

GG

well i got 200 "square" (no rounded corners) dice for $10, they offered bigger discountsfor bigger orders, and had 4 different colors available.

so giving everyone 50 dice of various colors would be less than $2.50 / person.

nkelsch wrote:Because most people use pips and are used to visually registering pips quikcly. If someone is not used to numbers and not expecting numbers, they need to visually go over your dice to verify the results rolled are what is rolled. People are used to pips and this happens almost subconsciously for players. Numbers, not so much. Slows down the game, more 'what was the result, let me look' and more 'are you sure that was a 5+?'

I actually find the exact opposite.

It is so easy to misread pip dice. Mixing up 4's and 5's, or 2's and 3's is very, very easy when you're quickly scanning 30 or more dice. Numbered dice give much less chance of a mix-up, because the numbers are more distinct.

lixulana wrote:well i got 200 "square" (no rounded corners) dice for $10, they offered bigger discountsfor bigger orders, and had 4 different colors available.

so giving everyone 50 dice of various colors would be less than $2.50 / person.

Are they casino dice sized, or small like chessex dice?

If I could find small dice, I'd buy them, but it seems I either get rounded corner small, rounded corner big, or huge casino dice.

The Pirates game from Wizkids includes small square-sided dice... they're about 2 or 3mm across, bounce like crazy on a hard surface, and aren't actually entirely square. But it's really easy to roll 40 of them...

I have to agree with Matthias. The money aspect isn't my strong suit, but it seems very likely a logistical nightmare. I had enough to do pre-tournament (I mean the morning of) having my staff and I stuff bags with the tokens, counters, that we were giving all of our players.

One more thing to worry about, when it shouldn't be a problem because you can always use your opponent's dice, just seems like its adding a level of complexity that's largely unnecessary. KISS.

insaniak wrote:The Pirates game from Wizkids includes small square-sided dice... they're about 2 or 3mm across, bounce like crazy on a hard surface, and aren't actually entirely square. But it's really easy to LOSE 40 of them...

fixed your typo.

I think Major tournaments / GTs should assign xanax.

Problem solved.

insaniak wrote:The Pirates game from Wizkids includes small square-sided dice... they're about 2 or 3mm across, bounce like crazy on a hard surface, and aren't actually entirely square. But it's really easy to roll 40 of them...

I love that game, great fun!
Dice are irritating though, too small for my manly hands.

I understand that "touch my dice and i Break your arm" is unacceptable. But what about "touch my dice and i break your arm, unless you wash your hands first"

I mean just for those who have cheeto orange finger tips, KFC glossed finger tips, or the guy who was just digging in his ass crack or groin.... Im sorry but some people need some damned germX before touching my dice...

nkelsch wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:
I wasn't asking about thise dice. I specifically referred to dice numbered 1-6. You know... numbers instead of pips.
I'm asking why people always refer to "pip" dice as acceptable, but not those.

Because most people use pips and are used to visually registering pips quikcly. If someone is not used to numbers and not expecting numbers, they need to visually go over your dice to verify the results rolled are what is rolled. People are used to pips and this happens almost subconsciously for players. Numbers, not so much. Slows down the game, more 'what was the result, let me look' and more 'are you sure that was a 5+?'

What?
That makes NO sense to me at all.
Are you saying that people can't look at the NUMBER 5 on a die and tell it's a FIVE as easily as they can see five dots in an "X" shape and know it's a 5?
That's a ridiculous notion. Anyone who can look at a group of dice covered in dots and pick out which ones are successes and failures shouldn't have ANY problem doing the same thing with actual numbers. For heaven's sake, we only use "pips" regularly on dice... We use numbers in every day real life. We're inundated with them.

nkelsch wrote:

Want to share my dice during the game? Sorry. Old school dice superstitions here.

Your superstition is already unsportsmanlike and unwelcome at many events as you are forced to share dice if asked, and i fyou punish an opponent because they want to, then that makes you, yet again the poor spore and rude. You maintain an unreasonable double standard by refusing to use rounded dice because 'common knowledge' is they roll more 1's but continue to expect unquestioned use square-edged dice which is 'common knowledge' that they are more prone to controlling the outcome of the dice.

The only *FAIR* way to handle this so people like you do not unreasonably threaten or bully players under threat of sportsmanship penalties is to have the event staff set the standard and make it consistent and fair to all people. You may not like it, but at least it is not your opponent's fault and you can't punish them directly for you being forced to use a single type of rounded dice and a common dicepool.

People like you are why this needs to happen because your dice habits and superstitions are rude and hurt the game and you punish opponents if they question it.

Dude.
WTF is with all the hostility?
Why not dial it down a notch?
I'm sitting here trying to have a POLITE general conversation. I don't need you coming on here calling me unsportsmanlike or accusing me of threatening or bullying people. You don't even know me.
How about laying your assumptions and prejudices aside and trying not to "assume between the lines?"

As for sportsmanship, I max out on sports. scores regularly. The only people who DON'T give me high marks are the TFG's who don't give them to anyone or *ding* the people who beat them. In other words, the people who *ding* everyone's sportsmanship scores.
...and bully and threaten? Where the heck did I do that? Nowhere.
I stated what I would do in certain cases. I never said I would threaten it or even discuss it with the opponent. I would simply do it.

I stated, plainly, that I don't share my dice because I'm old-school susperstitious. I'm not the only one, either.
To be clear on the intent of what I said:
You are not using my dice. Ever. Not happening.
Think it's unfair? I don't care. Want a more even playing field, with everyone using the same dice? Fine. I'll put mine away and use yours. That doesn't bother my superstitions. It's not that I "want an unfair advantage." it's taht I simply don't want you touching my dice... not even to hand it back to me after a roll.

I also stated that I would not attend an event that required me to allow someone else to use my dice, so I would not have to worry about being at an event that "forced" me to share my dice, if asked.

nkelsch wrote:Edit: And there are way to many techniques for someone who is aware of techniques to even identify all of them. What they can identify is that the only way to make square dice legit is dice cups and rolling trays. Half of the technique is to shake them in your hand in such a way that your opponent 'thinks' they are being shaken around via the sound, but instead they are not. Rounded edge dice are such garbage it makes it very hard for most dice techniques to be effective, especially on wargaming surfaces. So there is *NO POSSIBLE WAY* for someone to watch you roll and assume you are not cheating. All they see is someone with a hard-on for square-edged dice which is suspicious which then requires people to begin watching the rolling techniques.

The only way to really legitimize all dice rolling is with dice cups... which interesting enough, is what the plastic square container dice cubes come in is perfect for. When rolling 2 or less dice, you should use a dice cup. 5+ dice is pretty much impossible to control the outcome so hands become acceptable.

So, you're so untrusting that, even if someone LOOKS like he's not cheating, you'll assume he is if (a) he's using square edged dece and (b) not using a cup? I hope that's NOT what you're saying, but that's how it reads.

You might see it as someone "with a hard on for square-edged dice which is suspicious which then requires people to begin watching the rolling techniques," but I see it as someone "who likes to use dice that roll average."

When rolling 2 or less (or 5 or less or whatever) dice, you feel free to use a cup. I'm still using my hands if I want to. If you don't like it, call a judge and have him watch me roll. I've got nothing to hide, and you'll be the one who looks bad to the judges when they see that your only reason for calling them over APPEARS TO BE to intimidate me into doing things the way you want me to, regardless of whether I'm actually breaking any rules or not.

nkelsch wrote:And I do think this is an interesting part of the 29% 1's rounded dice study:

One thing to consider is that all games workshop games (and most boardgames in general) are designed with these dice and so should reflect this in the gameplay accordingly. If you see somebody using games workshop dice for leadership tests and vegas style dice for everything else, then you can be sure that they are trying to get an unfair advantage though! Try to ensure you are using the same dice as your opponent.

The article that many people claim utter scientific hatred of rounded wargaming dice from explicitly says how these dice behaviors are basically unfair to your opponent and are suspect. If everyone had the exact same dice and was using dicecups for any roll of dice 2 or less, then I would be all fine for statistically superior casino dice for all.

That article has nothing to do with my basis for disliking the rounded dice.
1) I noticed ON MY OWN that they roll an inordinate amount of ones LONG before that study started circulating. Playing games like this (board games, RPG's, Wargames, dice games, etc) for 29 years does give you a bit of experience in noticing these things.
2) I find straight edged dice more pleasing to the eye. I think rounded edge dice are ugly in comparison.

Also keep in mind that the "dice behavior" referred to is the specific act of rolling different dice for different checks. Not the act of rolling the SAME dice (that happen to be straight edged) for everything. You're misusing the quote.

nkelsch wrote:As long as it was consistent and fair for all people. If you hate rounded dice, then the 'sporting' thing would be to say:

"Hey opponent, chessex rounded dice roll more 1's than normal. I have brought square dice which are more accurate for being random, I brought enough for both of us so this can be a fair game and we are using the same type of dice. And to avoid dice rolling issues that can be exploited with square dice, whenever one of us rolls something with 2 or less dice, we will use the container as a dice cup."

That is sporting, shows actual drive to have a fair game and most people will accept. If they decline the offer to use thier inferior dice, then it isn't your fault as they roll 29% 1s. You gave them an option of using a completely fair and balanced outcome with no possible motivation of deception or gaining an advantage. I actually think knowing the flaws of chessex dice and sitting there as your opponent rolls with an inferior dice while you use a dice that will provide better results is inherently dishonest and unsportsmanlike. You explicitly bring a dice which you *KNOW* will roll higher than your opponent and then refuse to let him use your dice? Because he wasn't smart enough to go buy them like you? Having unbalanced advantage is ok if he doesn't know he is at a disadvantage? What justification makes it ok since cat is out of the bag, you use special dice explicitly to roll 'better' than rounded dice.

It's actually less sporting and more laughable. If someone said something like you quoted to ME, it would be taken more like,
"Hey, opponent. My intellectual superiority has determined that square edged dice roll average, whereas rounded edged dice are crap. I see you use crap dice. I will gladly share my superior dice with you, so that you might know what it is to roll a real die in a game of 40K. Since I don't trust you to be honest, I expect you to roll small amounts of dice using this plastic container, which will rattle annoyingly before you roll the dice. No need to thank me. You're welcome."

As for giving them the chance for a fair and balanced outcome, should I offer to give their list a once-over and fix any sub-optimal choices? Maybe I should bring an extra copy of my list and army, so they can choose an evenly balanced army if they want, too?

At what point does this (and I stress) GAME become an exercise in hand holding for your opponent?

We each play the army we want, we use the units we want, and we bring the dice we want. As long as we're both playing "legal" codices, abiding by point/rule/unit restrictions, and using dice that are not improperly balanced so as to give us an unfair advantage, what's the problem? Note: dice that roll average is NOT an unfair advantage.

Why should someone with square edged (read: average rolling) dice be considered rude, wrong or otherwise thought of in a negative light in comparison to someone who bought cheap, unreliable round-edged dice? We're all big boys and girls here. If you think someone else has an unfair advantage because his dice are AVERAGE and yours are BELOW average, I suggest you look somewhere else for the true source of the problem.

nkelsch wrote:That is all people want. A consistent equal standard. Be it crap chessex dice, or perfectly balanced casino dice. As long as everyone is using the same thing in the same way it is all fine.

This reads to me like, "Because I want to use cheap, unreliable dice, everyone else should, too, when they play me."

Come on, man. Really? Is it really THAT big of a deal to you what kind of dice someone else uses, provided they're not weighted or otherwise altered to give certain results?

@All

How fair would it be for someone to refer to round edge chessex dice as cheating, unfair dice? I mean, it's well known that they roll a LOT of ones. So, since you use dice that are known NOT to roll average, isn't that cheating, as well?

Eric

Darkwynn wrote:Your saying we can't have Dark Green and Dark pips because you might be color blind?

If you're colorblind to the point of being unable to see a specific color- wouldn't that make it easier to see the pips? Since the color you can't see resolves differently?
I'm not colorblind, so I wouldn't know what a green looks like when you can't see it.


As for the preset dice for tourneys, I'd actually love it- it makes a nice souvenir and helps weed out cheaters if there are any. $5 for a block of 36 dice is a good price imo.
Ideally, I'd want 3 different colors within the set- so I can differentiate specific things like individual attacks/shots or what-not.

Quientin wrote:I understand that "touch my dice and i Break your arm" is unacceptable. But what about "touch my dice and i break your arm, unless you wash your hands first"

I mean just for those who have cheeto orange finger tips, KFC glossed finger tips, or the guy who was just digging in his ass crack or groin.... Im sorry but some people need some damned germX before touching my dice...

I had a bottle of Purel in my pocket during all of A-con for those reasons.

No offence to anyone, but im just not interested in getting H1N1 because I shake quite a few hands while im at that event.

MagickalMemories wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:
I wasn't asking about thise dice. I specifically referred to dice numbered 1-6. You know... numbers instead of pips.
I'm asking why people always refer to "pip" dice as acceptable, but not those.

Because most people use pips and are used to visually registering pips quikcly. If someone is not used to numbers and not expecting numbers, they need to visually go over your dice to verify the results rolled are what is rolled. People are used to pips and this happens almost subconsciously for players. Numbers, not so much. Slows down the game, more 'what was the result, let me look' and more 'are you sure that was a 5+?'

What?
That makes NO sense to me at all.
Are you saying that people can't look at the NUMBER 5 on a die and tell it's a FIVE as easily as they can see five dots in an "X" shape and know it's a 5?
That's a ridiculous notion. Anyone who can look at a group of dice covered in dots and pick out which ones are successes and failures shouldn't have ANY problem doing the same thing with actual numbers. For heaven's sake, we only use "pips" regularly on dice... We use numbers in every day real life. We're inundated with them.

This part, at least, is true for me - I have an easier time sorting massed d6's that have pips, rather than numbers. Part of it is pattern-recognition (something the human brain is pretty good at), and the rest has to do with orientation (numbers are normally presented "upright," rather than after all manner of rotations).

Janthkin wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:
I wasn't asking about thise dice. I specifically referred to dice numbered 1-6. You know... numbers instead of pips.
I'm asking why people always refer to "pip" dice as acceptable, but not those.

Because most people use pips and are used to visually registering pips quikcly. If someone is not used to numbers and not expecting numbers, they need to visually go over your dice to verify the results rolled are what is rolled. People are used to pips and this happens almost subconsciously for players. Numbers, not so much. Slows down the game, more 'what was the result, let me look' and more 'are you sure that was a 5+?'

What?
That makes NO sense to me at all.
Are you saying that people can't look at the NUMBER 5 on a die and tell it's a FIVE as easily as they can see five dots in an "X" shape and know it's a 5?
That's a ridiculous notion. Anyone who can look at a group of dice covered in dots and pick out which ones are successes and failures shouldn't have ANY problem doing the same thing with actual numbers. For heaven's sake, we only use "pips" regularly on dice... We use numbers in every day real life. We're inundated with them.

This part, at least, is true for me - I have an easier time sorting massed d6's that have pips, rather than numbers. Part of it is pattern-recognition (something the human brain is pretty good at), and the rest has to do with orientation (numbers are normally presented "upright," rather than after all manner of rotations).

Agreed. Also never seen people use D6's with actual digits on them instead of pips in wargaming.

Not to mention, the purpose of these types of events is testing strategy, not luck.



Using the "Loaded dice" excuse is typically the response of those who in MTG use the excuse of "He was using uneven sleeves". It's stupid, and statistically, it may even be impossible to prove. If you honestly feel cheated (like, you were CRUSHED in such a way that you are SURE the ONLY reason you lost was due to CHEATING and not POOR STRATEGY) bring it up to an official, have them test the players die, if you lose sportsmanship points for doing so, the so be it. If you can prove the guy was cheating, the win with a sportsmanship point will benefit you more then the crushing defeat due to cheating! If you care about your sportsmanship rating, but also care about winning so much so that you think the only way you could possibly lose is by your opponent using loaded dice (regardless of if they actually cheated or not), you should really look up the definition of "Sportsmanship" (If an opponent is OBVIOUSLY CHEATING, like, with metal dice and magnets, then you won't lose any Sportsmanship points)...

I mean, no joke, not trying to troll or be mean or anything... but odds are, if you feel you were 'cheated' out of a tourney win because someone was using illegal die or special rulers or 'remote control' rhinos (or "Magic wind moving models/terrain") you probably just lost because your strat was countered/not up to par/too reliant on luck vs your opponents strat. I've seen a doomed 5 man tac squad pass a full out Dire avenger blade-storm and still the player lost the game overall. The SM player wasn't cheating, he was just lucky... conversely even luck could not save him from his opponents superior strategy...

Case and point...
Read your codex
Read up on Tactica
Read OTHER codices (so you know what to expect)
Read the BGB
Read any FAQ/Errata that your tourney is using.
Learn the strat
Win with the strat.

Don't place the blame sandwich on why you lost to 'cheaters'.
And also don't go forcing everyone in the world to buy dice they don't need/want because you want that safety net... because in all honesty, wont you then just be removing your excuse for inadequacy?

Marius Xerxes wrote:

Quientin wrote:I understand that "touch my dice and i Break your arm" is unacceptable. But what about "touch my dice and i break your arm, unless you wash your hands first"

I mean just for those who have cheeto orange finger tips, KFC glossed finger tips, or the guy who was just digging in his ass crack or groin.... Im sorry but some people need some damned germX before touching my dice...

I had a bottle of Purel in my pocket during all of A-con for those reasons.

No offence to anyone, but im just not interested in getting H1N1 because I shake quite a few hands while im at that event.

EXACTLY!!! I cant count the times i see someone itching their teabag and then i cringe when they touch my figs or dice.... that guy just second hand teabagged my figs... Im not a clean freak but i mind 2nd hand teabagging/stinkpalming and/or greasing of my figs and dice.

and OT youre welcome for the puddle of black vomit i left in the elevator at akon last year.... Drunken Wesker had too much Absinthe. maybe Ill visit the 40k table this year.

Quientin wrote: But what about "touch my dice and i break your arm, unless you wash your hands first"

Hrm.

I'm sure that you also roll your regularly cleaned dice in a hygenically sterilized dice box covered in protective cloth, right?

Because its not like the tables you're rolling those dice on are ever cleaned, or haven't been manhandled by everyone, with everyone elses dice all over them, their hands, models, ass-crack juice, cheeto-fingers, KFC juices or whatever else you fear.

I was fine until "ass-crack juice."
LOL

WOW, now there's an image. : )


Eric

As long as they issue good square sharp edged dice from a quality manufacturer like gamescience and not some off balance rolls 1s/6s 33% more often than 2-5s like chessex and other crap makers of dice that just import Taiwanese made super polish tumbled dice.

Of course that would add an extra like 25$ each for 30~ dice to each player so it wouldn't happen and i would say no to supporting such a measure if they only use crappy dice like chessex etc.

kill dem stunties wrote:As long as they issue good square sharp edged dice from a quality manufacturer like gamescience and not some off balance rolls 1s/6s 33% more often than 2-5s like chessex and other crap makers of dice that just import Taiwanese made super polish tumbled dice.

If everyone's using the same dice, does it really matter?

The whole point of issuing dice is to ensure that everyone is on an even field. Not necessarily to ensure that everyone is using perfect dice.