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I have found that a copied metal figures are always super shiny. I traded a guy for 1500 points worth of SM Bikes for 1500 points of 3rd ed guard. They were super shiny plus they were lighter than GW figures.

I just realized I was reading Grot 6's posts in the "dramatic reading of a real break-up letter" voice It became supremely more entertaining.

LunaHound wrote:Mold lines alone arnt enough to determine whether something is recast?

That would be an emphatic "no".

LunaHound wrote:What about the direction of the mold line ?

Well if a mold line originally ran up the side of a model and is now running across it, this could be a sign.

But really, you need an original model to compare it to in order to ascertain whether it is a recast or not.

I am willing to bet a lot of miniatures people claim are recasts are in fact original GW casts. People see GW's casting nowadays and think that their casting technique was always as good. This simply isnt the case and sadly people new to the hobby climb up on their expert horse and claim such and such is a recast.

My experience with GW started in '87, and their casts were just as bad then as it was during the late 70's when D&D minis were produced (by Citadel and many other companies). It is only within the last 15 years that their casting has gotten better, and during 3rd ed 40K, I have seen my fair share of horrible molding from them.

Many times, GW have taken a model from their production line and used that to cast another model. This is evident by the double mold lines occasionally seen on a model. If you see some models still in blister from that time period, pay close attention to the mold lines. Chances are, you will find a model that is cast that badly. GW themselves have made it nearly impossible for a person to ascertain whether a quality recast is in fact an unlicensed recast of a particular model due to such horrible quality control measures.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:I just realized I was reading Grot 6's posts in the "dramatic reading of a real break-up letter" voice It became supremely more entertaining.

Ooooh, awesome take. I should try it. I get a "Charles Manson eating Froot Loops on my porch" kinda' vibe, and can never get further than two paragraphs.

While I didn't like his posts, I greatly enjoy Grot 6's Avatar.

@Mastiff: I think "arsnic" and "UNREGULATED STANDARDS" really did it for me No disrespect meant to anyone, just found something amusing.

Just in case anyone was wondering, Grot 6 does not ever get to speak for me. Anyone who builds an argument that equates recast mini to asian sweatshops does not get to say what "our collective take" is.

Now, as to the OP, I've been buying GW merchandise off of EBay for longer than some Dakka members have been alive. During that time I've seen blatant recasters come and go; the current crop are positively stealthy compared to years past. I can say with some confidence that the recasts make up a very small portion of the market; in my case I have had hundreds of transactions via EBay and have spent tens of thousands of dollars on my collection, but I don't believe a single one was a recast (being as some of those were acquired in painted condition I can not be absolutely certain.) While I may have had opportunities to buy from many recasters over the years, in my experience recasters tend to be somewhat obvious about what they are selling.

What I can impart to others from my experience:

* A poorly cast model does not mean it's a recast. I've bought models directly from GW that arrived in unusable shape due to miscasts and misalignments of molds.

* Double mold lines does not mean it's a recast. GW had to remake many molds, and even remake model masters, during the lifetime of some models. Some of the early 2nd ed Space Marine models really showed wear and tear by the time they retired the model.

* The color of the model (metal or plastic) is not a good indicator of a recast. GW used many formulations of plastic and metal casting materials over the past 30 years. Hell, it wasn't that long ago that GW (along with the rest of the industry) was using lead based casting metals. Additionally, metals do "age"; that bright and shiny Old One Eye you bought 6 years ago may now be a frosty grey just due to the heat and humidity from sitting in a box under your bed. Old wargamers used to refer to this as "Lead Rot"; it was the natural happenstance of the metal deteriating over time and similar things can happen to non-lead minis too.

* Recasters do tend to give themselves away. Having multiple copies of rare minis that are out-of-packaging or don't include signed and numbered certificates of authenticity is a bit of a give away.

* Be wary of finding super low BIN prices, or the "too much for too little"; not a guarantee of a recaster but certainly something of which to be careful.

* Finally, recasters are less likely to use EBay now due to the way that EBay is weighted toward the Buyer. It's too easy to get poor feedback as a Seller; this means that recasters tend to generate new accounts when needed or run multiple accounts. Sellers with a high number of feedbacks should be safer. Again, not a guarantee one way or the other, but you should always familiarize yourself with your Seller before buying. (This is on top of how EBay has always jumped at a complaint from GW; EBay always seemed to act as if a notification from GW was proof of guilt and a Seller needed to prove they were innocent.

Overall, I don't feel that the recasting industry has changed for the worse over the past 12 years of my Ebay experience; an educated EBay buyer should rarely find themselves unknowingly buying a counterfeit GW/FW product.


Frederich

Thanks for your attention. I didn't know my opinion means that much to you.

Hellfury wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Mold lines alone arnt enough to determine whether something is recast?

That would be an emphatic "no".

LunaHound wrote:What about the direction of the mold line ?

Well if a mold line originally ran up the side of a model and is now running across it, this could be a sign.

But really, you need an original model to compare it to in order to ascertain whether it is a recast or not.

Wrong direction of mold line is enough to determine them as recast is what i was saying.

gretar wrote:If you can see the obious moldline , the clearly recasted models , why dont you just ignore them ?

I think that if they are not currently stocked up on GW's shelfs , re-casting is fine .

However , if its new/on theyr shelfs, it does'nt really matter as GW does'nt lose money,

GW will still lose money .

What determines the value of a GW product besides the obvious cost we normall get into?

There are also:
How long you can use them for?
How much you can resell them for?

An army is generally rotated every 4 year cycle. With model staying around 8 years if there are no general complaints on their aesthetic design.
That means your army is generally good to last you 4-8 years which is very good if you buy them as they are released. Thus we can say thats the average life expectancy of your army
when it comes to its "worth" if recasting comes into play . Because if recasting is allowed when something is OOP , what will happen to the previous army people owned?
Their value will fall drastically depending how easily people are able to recast them for. Then will the "disposable" army we buy be worth what we pay?

Here is an example if i explained it badly.

Example A: (if recasting isnt allowed or accepted)
An army of $1000 worth of wraith guards *cough and daemonettes
It goes OOP after a few cycles. Maybe a guy can still get 50% of its worth because people are still willing to buy them say on ebay.
You never know , maybe they are collectors. Or people that just want to finish filling a squad , many possible reasons. So $500 left from what you originally spent.

Example B: ( if recasting OOP are allowed )
Lets not argue about how easily or hard it is to recast , every model is different , so lets just use average and lets assume the recasting seller is experienced.
They are able to recast the $1000 worth of wraith guards cough daemonettes for say $70 , and since recasting is allowed , now what happened?

Something you bought for $1000 , got some use out of them through the year through modeling / gaming fun , you still can get $500 back.

With recasting allowed , you are getting $70 back now. Because the market will now be saturated with recasts.
And if that $70 worth is the expect out come of your army , i dont think people will dish out $1000 in the start anymore.

Thunderfrog wrote:While I didn't like his posts, I greatly enjoy Grot 6's Avatar.

Thunderfrog, looking back over this thread, I don't see enough of anything to like about you. Come back with more funnys and try again.



"Just in case anyone was wondering, Grot 6 does not ever get to speak for me. Anyone who builds an argument that equates recast mini to asian sweatshops does not get to say what "our collective take" is. "

The argument over unregulated goods equates to a dead asian hooker joke in there somewhere, I just know it.
Let me know how it goes for you when you go to your next local tourney with that recast army. I'd like to bust your balls, aside from the fact that I have to agree with your points.


Cannerus, other then you being semi entertaining, I like to try reading my posts in a William S Burroughs voice, or Harvey Kietel.


"Charles Manson eating frootloops on my porch..."

Of all of the things to compare me to, and that is all you can bring to the table?
You sad, silly little ...


Once again Thanks for the support. My next show is at 10:00 in the blue room!

Hehe, I didn't notice I was reading it that way until I got to your random use of caps. I broke up with my girlfriend last night but you managed to bring a smile to my face.

Howard A Treesong wrote:GW certainly did cast in those colours. Considering that RT stuff was much cheaper and GW was less popular back then I'd say they were the genuine article. Plastic casting is pretty tricky anyway, even with the costs of casting coming down and technology improving you're unlikely to see many plastic recasts.

Yep. My first couple of boxes of RTB001 were dark green. The next one (a year or so later) was dark blue. A couple of years later and they were beige.
The old fantasy regiment box (late 80s) was in a shiny, white plastic.

Of course, back then, their plastics were done by a third party (who also did the plastic bits for Matchbox(tm) cars ) - and they were done in whatever colours the manufacturer had.

GW didn't stop producing miniatures with lead in them until the early 90s - and a couple of years after Ral Partha had started that snowball off.
This means that ALL old GW metal minis (from before 1991) are toxic - not just modern recasts.

Mind you, the presence of bismuth in the current ones don't make them candy, either. Bismuth is also toxic.

Here’s my $0.50’s worth. I wouldn’t go out of my way to buy from a re-caster, not because I feel its wrong towards GW, but because I’d hate the knowledge that someone made money from me for doing nothing. If something is available from GW, then I’m against re-casting. If its something that’s long OOP, anything goes. All the morally correct people moaning on Dakka about the evils of stealing IP and recasting, how many CD’s have you ripped? Films you’ve recorded from the TV? MP3’s you’ve lifted from your mates Ipod?

I bought the majority of my Steel Legion troopers from 1 auction (+100 models) on Ebay for a bargain price about 12yrs ago. When I received them, I highly suspected them to be recasts, but I got a good deal, and didn’t care. This army has since been entered in GW tournaments, won GW Tournament painting competitions, and been photographed and featured on the GW web site. For this reason I’d challenge anyone to be able to identify a recast, once it’s been cleaned and painted up to a decent standard. If GW couldn’t tell the difference, who could?

Now, for those who’ll protest that GW lost $$$$ from me buying the above, think about this. All the troopers I bought needed Support weapon teams (36 in total), officers (18 total) and assault weapon models (+20) which were all bought from GW direct. All my squads took Chimera’s (17 total) plus all the Basilisks, x2 Kasrkin units, and a whole host of other units. Add to this the FW bill for x2 Baneblades, x1 Shadow Sword, x2 Valks, x2 Vultures, x3 Bombards, Flakk Cannons, sentinals plus more. GW took all this money from me, because I bought a cheap load of re-casts on Flea Bay. The recast models whilst make up 80% of my troops, prob. Cost less than 10% of my whole army.

Yes GW is expensive , its nothing new.

"Thunderfrog, looking back over this thread, I don't see enough of anything to like about you. Come back with more funnys and try again. "


Right Grot,

The fact that I serve your country's military and volunteer time when I'm on shore and on liberty abroad to raise awareness about the bad and dark side of trafficking in persons and the impact it has on a nations youth is completely not worthy of even the tiniest bit of respect.

You can comment on dead asian hookers if you want, but how many did YOU know before they were dead? I don't think you want my answer to the same question.

You might want to pause and consider the possibility that the people who have a little american flag next to their name might actually have done something worthwhile in their lifetime to serve it as well.

It's good that you care about the 218 million estimated children working in sweatshops around the world, but you didnt make much sense relating them to the original topic. That'd be like coming into this thread and saying..

"Well, the recasting of miniatures is a crime! Have you stopped to consider the hundred of bears who lose their habitat every year to industrial growth that tosses aside ethical and enviromental standards!?"

Sad story bro, but it has nothing to do with some fat guy in his basement melting down his grandmas pewter collection to make miniatures to sell for 15$ a pop.

My whole original point in posting here was for the OP's benefit, to protect him from some nonsense that said that making an issue public and discussing it doesnt mean you are guilty of the subject matter. You are the one taking everything as a personal attack.

Stop acting like a D-bag. Cry less. Discuss more.

You can't do anything about repros on Ebay. They don't care.

The Battletech community has a HUGE problem with this, with close to a THOUSAND lodged complaints against multiple offenders, and Ebay's response:

"We'll look into it."

Their final action? They have pulled ONE account, but that was because he started scamming as well (taking money and not shipping) but nothing is done about repros. Ebay makes their money off them, so they have no reason to care about the consumer. THEY aren't the ones being scammed.

I'm not sure if GW doesn't care. I clearly remember a plea in WD for people to report these kinds of incidents.

Well said Thunderfrog, well said.

My first introduction to the hobby was 20yrs ago in a primary school fantasy club. The teacher would bring his molds in (which I assume he had made from an existing model) and we would melt down lead (stolen from roofs) and make our own "lead figures" whilst he disappeared to the staff room for coffee (we had no H&S 20 years ago)

Anyway whilst I don't know whether GW or someone else made the original models. If it wasn't for recasts introducing me to the hobby as a kid, then GW would have never got any of my money.

It's possible even those were legit. It's not common but historical wargamers in particular were able to cast their own miniatures as some companies sold moulds for home use. I have seen them at wargames shows and most look as rough as a badger's arse. Perhaps when you need thousands of infantry to fight Waterloo you can't afford to be too picky.

Buying from recasters takes money out of my FLGS's hands. Also, it doesn't support GW, who makes the game that my friends and I enjoy in our limited free time.

That's my 2 cents and a pocket of lint.

OK.

That's enough.