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So while I may be new here, I'm certainly not new to the hobby. I have noticed what seems like an increased number of fake GW bootleg minis floating around on ebay. Some are just auctions I've come across, others are auctions I've won.

Have a lot of you out there noticed this? Do you think the average gamer just doesn't know they are being duped and buying a fake?

One thing I've noticed over the years, there are re-casters who after they recast always lightly prime their minis white. Mainly due to being a different shade of pewter than standard GW minis. I've noticed this a lot in OOP 2nd edition Imperial guard minis.

Or how about horrible mold lines, or double mold lines on minis. That's another sure fire give away. Also with recasts they are always slightly bigger than the real GW release.

What's most unfortunate is the guys that recast these minis take advantage of people who just don't know any better and make a decent profit off of doing so.

So basically, how many of you out there have gotten knock-offs, or think you may have? Do you see these type of deals often and steer away from them? Do you at least report them as being fake?

Just curious what everyone elses take is on this.

Thanks for reading!

Never really noticed it myself but then again I probably wouldn't notice a knock-off mini if it jumped up and bit me on the arse unless it was uber-craptastic. But then again, I don't spend hours poring over every mini I buy looking for flash and mould lines; I jut get on with putting them together and painting them. That said, I have bought a lot of stuff off ebay so I'm sure I probably have some dodgy material somewhere. Whether it hurts GW? Probably not; I should imagine that this recasting issue is a niche problem in a niche market, we arent talking DVD piracy here, the actual monetary value is a drop in the ocean. I'm sure GW like to crack down on it but I don't think they will lose much sleep or sales over it.

I'm going to point out that your accusing some of re-casting GW minatures without consent, so essentially your accusing someone you do not know of a crime that's got some pretty hefty penalties. I'm playing devil's advocate here: do you have proof these are re-casts do you own them yourself? have to filed a complaint with ebay?

That being said: I share similar concerns. I've notice to an increasing number of ebay auctions which I've speculated are re-casts. Example is increasing numbers of forgeworld doors for rhino's, etchings, the simpler items a experience gamers would know how to put into a press, along with the single piece minatures, and recast them. I am careful with examining pictures, and I do not order from anyone I have concerns about.

Of your examples: the praetorians look horrible. There is some speculation there. The only other thought is for benefit of the doubt, maybe the seller got a hold of a bulk shipment of GW older products in the past. Also if you look back the Demon Slayers are horrible discolored, and the Eldrard... you said it yourself mold lines!

Alkaline wrote:So basically, how many of you out there have gotten knock-offs, or think you may have? Do you see these type of deals often and steer away from them? Do you at least report them as being fake?

Just curious what everyone elses take is on this.

I've got a few and to be honest it doesn't bother me because I mostly picked them up cheap. If I'd paid good money for them I'd be annoyed but as it was I've been to a lot of wargames shows, picked up lots of stuff cheap in 'bring and buys' and in retrospect some of them have appeared to be recasts. It's not always obvious when things are unpackaged. Double cast lines is usually a give away but there are exceptions, the metal being shiny isn't an indicator and nor is the mini looking pulpy in appearance, especially with older figures. These things are indicators especially when they occur together but they are not proof. Obviously figures cast in lead that were only released after GW went over lead-free are a give away.

I'm not happy about people recasting the latest releases an palming them off as the real thing because they are simply trying to rip people off. Furthermore they are recasting something readily available. When it comes to recasting OOP figures I'm more ambivalent. GW aren't being denied anything by people recasting Squats and stuff, they either refuse to sell them or have destroyed the moulds. It's an entirely second hand market anyway that they cannot tap into. Regardless, the majority of miniatures in the 2nd hand market place are the genuine article. Collectors will still pay collectors prices, but the odd recast allows some of us the opportunity to get a very near approximation to the genuine article for a reasonable price. There are a lot of Sergeant Centurius's floating around on eBay and it's obvious that people are recasting them and claiming they are genuine and asking high By it Now prices. It's something everyone has to be wary of before laying out large sums of money. But I've bought a lot of figures dirt cheap over the years, usually at shows, and some of them were dirt cheap because they turned out to be recasts. Or some of them were bulk buys and a handful turned out to be recasts. I obviously don't go out looking for recasts, I'm after figures that look good quality, it just happens that sometimes they are recasts. But I'm not to fussy if they turn out to be recasts unless I've paid a lot for them.

On the subject of OOP ranges, well GW sold us these games and ranges and cut all the support from them in short order. For instance, would I buy a good quality recast of the Inquisitor scale Genestealer? Yes I would because GW only released theirs for about 3 months, like most of the range they encouraged customer investment in the game and then axed it all. And the genuine article sells for over £50 when you even see one. This is common to many of their older figure ranges like Man or War and other shortlived lines. All I want is to have the tools to play the game they sold me in the first place.

Often recasts look ok once painted, and it's often hard to be sure if you have a recast in the first place. I'm not throwing figures away on the off chance I've bought a recast especially if it's a rare figure that'll cost me £10-20 to replace off eBay. I'm still going to use them.

I guess I'm not too worried about it. Assuming the quality is at least similar to the original (Extra mold lines can be filed off) it's almost certainly something I'd never even notice.

We used to have this debate with Magic cards all the time - if you bought a fake, but it was so good that nobody realized/knows it was a fake, does it matter? It's just ink on paper, just like the GW stuff is just plastic/metal/whatever.

I suppose it's not like it's a gray area or anything legally as they are essentially counterfeiting, but man the price they want to get for some of this stuff irks me so much I almost do wish for more fake-casters to supress the costs a little bit.

A couple of years back, I ran across quite a few recasts that were all traced back to the same person. A friend of mine who was a metalurgist, checked them against some excess GW metal and they weren't even close. Quality was WAY off as well as the metal used. We contacted GW, and over the next 12 months got nothing but run-around from them. This guy in question has a mold machine, an eBay account, etc. and regulary sells the same minis over & over again (all primed of course). All of this information, as well as a couple of the minis were sent to GW. Nothing has happened. They just don't seem to give a damn!

J'santai Khan wrote:A couple of years back, I ran across quite a few recasts that were all traced back to the same person. A friend of mine who was a metalurgist, checked them against some excess GW metal and they weren't even close. Quality was WAY off as well as the metal used. We contacted GW, and over the next 12 months got nothing but run-around from them. This guy in question has a mold machine, an eBay account, etc. and regulary sells the same minis over & over again (all primed of course). All of this information, as well as a couple of the minis were sent to GW. Nothing has happened. They just don't seem to give a damn!

Why should they? Let's look at this logically; they would have to devote serious time, effort, manpower and above all, money to track down, amass evidence and attempt to prosecute what is invariably a tiny number of individuals and a tiny number of sales. All this as a part of a second hand market that GW completely ignore and have no interest in. I'm not surprised that GW can't be arsed to do anything - I don't really think that recasts have any impact on their sales at all.

^Agreed.

If someone offered me fake casts, at a quid a pop or something, I'd buy them. Seeing 4 models go for £20 is a joke if they're fakes. No point whatsoever.

I would love to get hold of some decent fakes, if the price was right.

I do understand a important point: OOP models. Sometimes there are those of us who start a OOP army, and get stuck either half finished, and disappointed about not being able to finish. If I were in that boat, utilizing re-casts seems accessible, especially if you are attending things like Indy GT's and just gaming in a buddies basement.

If your talking about utilizing the re-casts in GW stores, and events, I think that takes some marbles and i'd frown upon it. There's a difference to me in building something for my own enjoyment, and using it in GW settings. Its just my own opinion. Still the Genestealer example above for me is a great example.

Recasts for sale piss me off. I've had artwork that was stolen and passed off as their own. If you don't have the talent or creativity to design something original, than f**k off. Theft of a concept is still theft, even if there are cheap douchebags willing to buy knock-offs to save a few bucks.

IMHO.

Cheap douchebag here, tossing in my two coppers..


I keep myself in pretty ignorant Bliss. If I'm looking for say, Wraithguards, and a blister pack is selling them for 14$ each in any gamestore I shop at, and I can find an amazing bundle of 10 for 50$ online, I'm going to buy it without asking any more questions than necessary.

(Do they have bases? All their limbs? Any stupid conversions, yada yada.)


Anyways..

PS - Can I have a link to your artwork?

Mold lines alone arent a very valid method of determining whether or not some items are from GW or recasts. I've gotten some very very poor quality casts from GW over the years.

If it's for stuff that's OOP, I can understand. I'd have no problem with it so long as I know about it.

I bought a recast Tyranid spore a short while back. He didn't say it was recast, so I kicked up a stink, and got half my money back. I told him what I was prepared to pay for it, and he could have that or give me a full refund and lump it. He chose to go with what I offered.

I'm of two minds about the whole thing. I mean, yes, GW stuff is ungodly high in price, and it would be much easier to get cheaper stuff off the internet, but at the same time, recasts have a habit of being shoddy pieces of rubbish. Not to mention the whole illegality thing.

Well you would need to start with researching the legallities of recasting. I know "someone" that recasts but they are for herself. She has gone as far to alter about 30% of the models before building molds. She doesnt take them to gamesday or gw stores, nor does she try and sell them.

That being said, is that wrong? I dont see it that way. However if you are casting, packaging and selling these off as GW products, then your a *bleep* or a *bleep* whatever you prefer.

Ah recasting...the big GW bugbear.

Recasting will never be the huge problem that some people claim it to be for one very simple reason: only a very few people are ever going to be able to do it. I've had a bit of experience with casting as one of the guys in out local group has a small jewelry casting machine that he uses to copy miniatures for personal use. Not only is the start up cost for even very small casting machines very high, the actual amount of work involved in making the miniatures is alot higher than you might think. It's hot, dirty, and repetive....something I can attest to from personal experience. The mold making process specificly is hard to master. Not only is making, curing, and preparing an individual mold time consuming but correctly venting the mold to it will actually cast a complete figure is a something that takes quite a bit of skill and experience.

My point to all this is that due to the cost and high effort to product ratio you are never going to have more than a handful of people who will recast. Certainly , despite dire claims otherwise, the small amounts of recasters out there are not enough to effect GW's bottom line enough for the consumer to see it. Likewise GW's legal threats against Ebay casters are pretty damned hollow. It's hard to prove, and difficult to enforce. Yes, they did apparently sue the recaster "Mac-Ace" some years ago (does anyone have access tot he actual details of that case? I'm curious..) but he was casting on a large scale and was not playing it safe at all. His Ebay business model was not representive of typical recasting.

As for my personal thoughts on recasting? I simply don't care, especially when it comes to pirated GW product. I have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy when it omes to such things. I don't enguire too closly about the origin of second hand models I buy and yes I freeely admit that I knowlingly bought from such well known Ebay recasters as the afore mentioned Mac-Ace and Goblins-Goodies. If it's a good deal and fits into a project I'm building, then why should I care?

Which brings me to my final point: the chances of the end consumer of recasts getting caught is next to zero. Honestly after you clean off the mold lines and paint the fgures they are pretty much impossible to detect. So the oft thrown out threat that those caught with recast models will be thrown out of a GW store and (and this one is particularly laughable) their models confiscated is hollow. Let's face it, detecting recasts takes a specific skill set that most staffer lack and is something they are not likely to be looking out for anyway. Even the most overt things are likley to be missed as staffer just don't look too close at customer's models on the table. For example I know another fellow (different than the gentleman above) who actually had the stones to cast up some plastic figures in metal and bring them to a store to play with. As they were painted and based by looking at them you cuold not tell that they were not plastics. I asked him what he would do if someone actually picked up his figures without permission and commented on the extra weight. His pre-prepared excuse was that he weighted the hollow section of the slotta base to keep the figures from bieng knocked around!

TR

I'd like to find some recast hobgoblins or tall hat chaos dwarfs...

Alkaline wrote:I have noticed what seems like an increased number of fake GW bootleg minis floating around on ebay.

Take for example this ebay seller whos feedback is shown here http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=vudelfo&&sspagename=VIP:feedback&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller

http://cgi.ebay.com/WH40K-PRAETORIAN-ASSAULT-WEAPONS-TEAM-VERY-OOP_W0QQitemZ330419357545QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Toys_Wargames_RL?hash=item4cee874769

Just curious what everyone elses take is on this.

Everybody knows counterfeiters are out there.

Nobody cares.

Although these threads are handy at drumming up more business for them.

So, which seller of recasts are you?

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Everybody knows counterfeiters are out there.

Nobody cares.

Although these threads are handy at drumming up more business for them.

So, which seller of recasts are you?

Word. I think John hit it on the head...

Right. You think that all you want. I'll stick with the real topic at hand like many others have.


As for the feel bad for GW comments. I wouldn't say anyone should feel bad for GW in a case like this. Everyone knows that GW price gouges on certain things, or has made certain minis that they no longer produce that are still in high demand. Would someone selling recasts of something like that hurt GW? Obviously not. However, that doesn't change the fact that they still duping most average war gamers into thinking what they are purchasing is real. GW wouldn't really care in instances where they know a re-caster isn't taking money from them. Not worth the trouble of fighting it.

I guess it comes down to price point. If you can get something super cheap, most people wouldn't care one way or another if it's fake. But when you get into the more rare high priced minis is where it because less of a good deal and more about getting ripped off. Or as some other people have mentioned, it's a different situation when you willingly know you are buying something that is fake. I think just about everyone would buy 10 Wraithguard for 15 bucks if they knew they were fake and be completely OK with that. But you'd probably be pretty angry if you bought 10 fake ones for 100 bucks, no?

What about Forgeworld stuff? Someone else mentioned FW and you're right, you do see re-casts from time to time. Is the "I don't mind a fake" mentality still OK if you just spent big bucks on some FW minis and got some shoddy re-casts?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Everybody knows counterfeiters are out there.

Nobody cares.

+1

That captures it.

As someone who bought some stuff from Mac-ace probably ten years ago or so I guess I was mildly disappointed when I realized they weren't real. And about ten seconds later I stripped off his primer and then reprimed and painted them. And after that I never bought from him again. So I would say if you don't like people recasting there is no need to get up on your soap box. Just don't buy them.

If you can see the obious moldline , the clearly recasted models , why dont you just ignore them ?

I think that if they are not currently stocked up on GW's shelfs , re-casting is fine .

However , if its new/on theyr shelfs, it does'nt really matter as GW does'nt lose money, and you can easily just report the user on Ebay and get him kicked off .

Alkaline wrote:
As for the feel bad for GW comments. I wouldn't say anyone should feel bad for GW in a case like this. Everyone knows that GW price gouges on certain things, or has made certain minis that they no longer produce that are still in high demand. Would someone selling recasts of something like that hurt GW? Obviously not. However, that doesn't change the fact that they still duping most average war gamers into thinking what they are purchasing is real. GW wouldn't really care in instances where they know a re-caster isn't taking money from them. Not worth the trouble of fighting it.

That's an interesting viewpoint. You're essentially saying "It's OK to rip someone off as long as they can afford it."

I'm not a huge GW supporter, but I'm a bit iffy about that kind of point of view. They deserve to be treated the same as every other company for big issues like this. Sure, I expect a bit different service from big vs. little companies, but that's different in my mind from thinking it's OK to rip them off because they're large.

@OP: I don't know why your panties are in a bunch. There's nothing new here that hasn't been hashed over several times, in detail.

The only new thing is you posting links to recasts. The thing is, everybody already knows how to spot a recaster. We don't need you to help. Or shill for them.

Therefore, the only reasonable conclusion is that you sell recasts and are trying to pull eyeballs in to drum up more business.

I don't mind you coming in here, but don't play games or insult our intelligence. If you're recasting, then just come clean, so you can get perma-banned like all of the other crooks.

I think the majority of people that post about how incredibly evil recasters are, are just trying to prove to everyone how UBER their devotion to GW is. Honestly, most people dont give a hoot if someone is recasting. If someone buys GW minis, and wants to recast parts for personal use, I see no problem with that at all. But it is wrong when some one does that, and then sells them in bulk for a profit. Thats not cool


But then again, if a recaster was selling some nice minis for cheap enough, you damn skippy Id buy them, if I needed them. Thats the nature of the beast

KingCracker wrote:But then again, if a recaster was selling some nice minis for cheap enough, you damn skippy Id buy them, if I needed them. Thats the nature of the beast

And that's why it pays to advertise.

Like the OP.

Only pays if its cheap, and Im in the buying mood lol. But I agree with you, he seems like a "OH MY GAWD THIS GUY IS BAD!!!! but uh look at those PERFECTLY done recasts. And the prices are reasonable as well *nudge nudge*"

Just in case anyone is curious, I'm 99% sure that the relevant legal doctrine regarding recasts would be here

Seems that if you want to recast something, recast it for your use only and make sure it's OOP and GW, even if they wanted to, would have a hard time getting a verdict against you.

BTW- You'll be able to tell if the recasting or secondary market starts effecting GW if they ever start LOWERING prices to compete. At least that seems how all other IP markets tend to deal with wide spread piracy (see: Industry, Recording.)

Balance wrote:
That's an interesting viewpoint. You're essentially saying "It's OK to rip someone off as long as they can afford it."

I'm not a huge GW supporter, but I'm a bit iffy about that kind of point of view. They deserve to be treated the same as every other company for big issues like this. Sure, I expect a bit different service from big vs. little companies, but that's different in my mind from thinking it's OK to rip them off because they're large.

That's not what I meant by what I said. I never said that it's OK to rip someone off it they can afford it. I was pointing out how the price point is where it's less of a who cares attitude and more of getting duped and cheated. The part about GW not losing out on money was if the mini was long out of production. GW would care more if someone was making re-casts of whatever the current army that is out as opposed to say some long ago oop mini that doesn't even have rules.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

KingCracker wrote:But then again, if a recaster was selling some nice minis for cheap enough, you damn skippy Id buy them, if I needed them. Thats the nature of the beast

And that's why it pays to advertise.

Like the OP.

Hey mr big post count,

If I were in the casting business and wanted to advertise, I think I'd have far more success just selling off my minis in the trade shop here or on other sites and duping people. Seems like it would do me far more good to do so than post a thread about the general topic and asking what other peoples thoughts and experiences were on the subject. Then hoping, praying and crossing my fingers a guy like you somehow manages to find what I'm selling. Not that that logic would have any sort of relevance to you.

Either way, it makes for a good laugh.