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loranafaeriequeen wrote:i just feel really crappy about a lot of stuff right now. and i'm taking a lot of stuff too personally because of it.

That happens all the time on internet fora including this one. Trouble is that we don't know about the stuff behind your reaction until you tell us. That's why I tried to contextualize my earlier posts by going a little into a particular experience.

In my current situation, I am far away from friends and my fiancee. As sad as it might sound right off the bat, Dakka has taken up a lot of the slack in my social life--and it's done a good job of it. Having "digital" friends isn't so bad. What's surprising is how you can sincerely admire someone and value communicating with them even when they only exist to you as text on a message board. Obviously, don't give up your search for IRL adult friends in favor of internet friendships but it is good to realize (a lot of people, even here in OT, do not AT ALL) that you can get a lot out of communicating with the same group of folks here at Dakka on a regular basis.

yeah until i make a complete ass of myself

When that happens, you'll just be one of us for real. We've all done and continue to do it every once in a while.

Manchu wrote:

loranafaeriequeen wrote:i just feel really crappy about a lot of stuff right now. and i'm taking a lot of stuff too personally because of it.

That happens all the time on internet fora including this one. Trouble is that we don't know about the stuff behind your reaction until you tell us. That's why I tried to contextualize my earlier posts by going a little into a particular experience.

In my current situation, I am far away from friends and my fiancee. As sad as it might sound right off the bat, Dakka has taken up a lot of the slack in my social life--and it's done a good job of it. Having "digital" friends isn't so bad. What's surprising is how you can sincerely admire someone and value communicating with them even when they only exist to you as text on a message board. Obviously, don't give up your search for IRL adult friends in favor of internet friendships but it is good to realize (a lot of people, even here in OT, do not AT ALL) that you can get a lot out of communicating with the same group of folks here at Dakka on a regular basis.

This is so true. It's also worth pointing out that written words on a page have a nasty habit of looking quite stark, meaning some statements look pretty blunt when in actual fact, if you were talking to someone face-to-face it wouldn't appear so. For my part, most of my posts are made with a smile on my face.

Dakka is a great site, in fact it's the first internet forum I've ever used, and I've hitherto found the experience to be rewarding. Engage with it, take posts in the spirit in which they're meant (if you're not sure about it ask the person to clarify) and you will enjoy coming here greatly. I know I do.

Manchu is right, we've all made arses of ourselves - many people do when they come here for the first time. Until they get used to the pace of Dakka, people get pissed off and pick fights, flame people - most people 'grow out' of it (not intended to be condescending, but I couldn't find a better way to put it!), some people don't. I certainly had quite a few blazing arguments with people when I first started using this site, including with Manchu here - and now we're pals (at least I hope so....).

I have a funny feeling Dakka might be fairly helpful as far as your feelings of isolation are concerned. It's a good place to vent, especially the OT forum.

I second that emotion, Albatross: I generally dislike boards, but I'm really coming to like being part of the dakka community (in my own small way).

loranafaeriequeen wrote:I began this forum as a way to figure out how to make new friends and get back into my hobbies after having my son. I am very hurt that many of you believe that I have no right to this because I chose to have a child and that I am the one who abandoned my friends by having other responsibilities.

Take the advice and ignore the static. The noise to signal ratio is always quite high on the internet, and by extension the Dakka OT zone.

-You will meet new friends through children events.
-You can continue gaming and friends. Initially difficult but as they get slightly older its healthy for each of the spouses to maintain hobbies.
-Those you keep are great. Those who fall by the wayside weren't worth keeping to begin with.


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Manchu wrote:Nightwatch is pretty correct here but I just want to add my own clarification.

You did choose to have different priorities when you decided to have children. Look at it this way: your friends are now lower on your priority list, right? I mean, that should go without saying. Similarly, playing games is now lower on your priority list. Well, your friends' priorities did not change. They did not choose the changes that you have to accept and you can't expect them to do so.

If what I have written seems harsh, keep in mind that some of that has to do with defending that my perspective is even on topic against people who are twisting it into some kind of child-hating or mother-hating. Actually, lorana, you are doing that, too. It's not that you have no right to friends. It's just that you seem to be asking that friends should take your circumstances and priorities into consideration without doing the same for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

loranafaeriequeen wrote:It still makes me feel as if I am being punished for being a mom. I'm lonely, I'm miserable, and I'm starting to lose my mind.

Well, this thread has a lot of good advice for meeting people who are in a similar situation. But I think you must jettison thinking of yourself as abandoned or in some other way victimized by your decision to have children before following that advice will bear fruit.

You proceed from a false assumption. Change will occur regardless, due to life events. The only option is to float with that change and have friends who do so. Else your friendds are stuck in the past and you don't want them around. Frankly friends will come and go. its part of life. But change WILL happen.

The assumption I proceed from is that friendship is based on shared interest and that when interests diverge friendship will fade. When one party decides to radically change their interests at the highest level of priority then how can they say that the other party is to blame for the friendship fading? The observation that "change is inevitable" seems to assume that starting a family happens without a conscious decision and, whatever rationalizations could be made otherwise, that doesn't seem to be OP's situation. It's almost like saying "it's not my fault that have children." First, having children is not a fault in the sense of being a flaw. Second, in the sense that fault indicates causation, yes it is your fault--i.e., your choice, not your friends' choice. Just because your friends are not ready to have their own children or to put up with yours does not meant that they are "stuck in the past." Saying things like "you don't want them around" or "weren't worth keeping in the first place" smack of hurt feelings rationalized into bitterness.

Manchu wrote: The observation that "change is inevitable" seems to assume that starting a family happens without a conscious decision

Think about that statement for a minute.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:The assumption I proceed from is that friendship is based on shared interest and that when interests diverge friendship will fade. When one party decides to radically change their interests at the highest level of priority then how can they say that the other party is to blame for the friendship fading? The observation that "change is inevitable" seems to assume that starting a family happens without a conscious decision and, whatever rationalizations could be made otherwise, that doesn't seem to be OP's situation. It's almost like saying "it's not my fault that have children." First, having children is not a fault in the sense of being a flaw. Second, in the sense that fault indicates causation, yes it is your fault--i.e., your choice, not your friends' choice. Just because your friends are not ready to have their own children or to put up with yours does not meant that they are "stuck in the past." Saying things like "you don't want them around" or "weren't worth keeping in the first place" smack of hurt feelings rationalized into bitterness.

if your friends don't adapt then forget them. Its that simple. Change happens be it job, age, illness, life, whatever. If your friends can't adapt then move on. its not big deal.

Strange coming from a conservative...

Manchu wrote: Just because your friends are not ready to have their own children or to put up with yours does not meant that they are "stuck in the past." Saying things like "you don't want them around" or "weren't worth keeping in the first place" smack of hurt feelings rationalized into bitterness.

Not at all. It doesn't have to be as big a deal as you seem to be making it.

How many people are you still friends with that you went to High School with? I bet it's a pretty small percentage compared to everyone that you socialized with. How about elementary school?

People come and go in our lives. If one's friends don't want to deal with their children or whatever, that's a choice that they make and everyone goes on from there. Just like having children is a choice that the other parties make.

That said, the fact that someone is having kids seems like a pretty shallow reason to stop socializing with them. I'd say that smacks of hurt feelings and bitterness over not being as high of a priority in the other person's life.

Most of my friends are people that I've known since high school. We all came back to our hometown after college.

On a side note, the baby is sitting in my lap right now as I am posting and he is transfixed with the orkmoticons. He is making faces at them.

That sounds pretty cool. My little girl would feel compelled to smash her hand on the function keys if I let her get that close to a keyboard!

Monster Rain wrote:

Manchu wrote: Just because your friends are not ready to have their own children or to put up with yours does not meant that they are "stuck in the past." Saying things like "you don't want them around" or "weren't worth keeping in the first place" smack of hurt feelings rationalized into bitterness.

Not at all. It doesn't have to be as big a deal as you seem to be making it.

How many people are you still friends with that you went to High School with? I bet it's a pretty small percentage compared to everyone that you socialized with. How about elementary school?

People come and go in our lives. If one's friends don't want to deal with their children or whatever, that's a choice that they make and everyone goes on from there. Just like having children is a choice that the other parties make.

That said, the fact that someone is having kids seems like a pretty shallow reason to stop socializing with them. I'd say that smacks of hurt feelings and bitterness over not being as high of a priority in the other person's life.

Exactly.

Ouch, good topic.

I have 5 year and 4 year old boys.

Reasons we as parents can be painful to those without kids:

We talk about our kids like there is nothing else in the world (sometimes it feels like it), I seem to remember thinking "Hey buddy, get a life" until it happened to me, it IS a life just different and rewarding. So make an effort to talk of other things.

Kids noises like screams, yells and screeches are like nails on chalkboard to those not used to it (I can now be in a minivan for an hour drive with them and not get a headache!!). Some means of keeping the kids occupied or to take the edge of the decibel level will help out your guests (a favorite movie MAY have to be used).

How much does your friend like their miniatures? How much time and effort is given? How well received is a grabby, fast moving, hyper 5 year old near his coveted "babies". If the child has his "own stuff" and you managed to train him as best you could to not grab stuff it may allow that person to think of coming back rather than run for the hills. Before friends come by, I find a way to wear out the kids, exercise is good for you and you get comments on how well behaved the kids are while they were praying for death an hour earlier and now need their naps.

How well was a new girlfriend/boyfriend received by gaming friends? Not well, they tend to think you are now out of their lives due to the new interest. Children are viewed as worse, all it takes is one or two times a request to game or go out is answered with "I can't I have the kids right now and it too short notice to get a babysitter". I find many of my prior gaming friends liked to be impulsive and the responsibility of kids is painful to them. More "mature" people who believe in scheduling times to get together are there for the long haul.

Possible solutions:

I agree the uncles and aunts are the ideal source for good babysitting. In the last year my kids have brought pinkeye, scarlet fever, strep-throat, chicken-pox and every snivel and fever known to man to our house and the grandparents are very afraid of us and the 14 year old girls can only stay so late to babysit.

Scheduling dates/times to play is not glamorous or sexy but you get to do what you want with some hope of it working out.

Meeting people I find a two pronged approach works: local games shops with postings or their web sites are good and try a couple on-site games to get a feel for the people. Around here are these "Early years centers" that are for parent/child support, you would be surprised how many responses I got to a posting I made of "New parent trying to regain his childhood: looking for like minded people to play any games (40k, D&D, Magic the Gathering) once a week to maintain sanity. Children are welcome but we are not a daycare (nice try)". Libraries are also great for contacts (Anyone who reads and are into escapism may like gaming).

Sometimes our only option is one parent takes a "hit for the team" and takes on the kids alone while the other runs off screaming. Clearly defined return times and/or a prompt phone call when running the risk of being late saves on marital pain. This allows us the illusion of acting like a single person for those friends that need that impulsive get together.


Sorry, long response as always with me but I have been giving this some thought myself.

Make time for yourself, the kids will endure no matter what but will not if you are not well and feeling happy.

Albatross wrote:Strange coming from a conservative...

Conservatism is having a stable core, a bedrock in the face of unknown change.

Great post, Talizvar; many valid points. Generally, a good continuing source of sanity for me other than Dakka (2yr old having massive overtired tantrum in bedroom as I post via magic space phone!) is pbphouse; currently I'm playing in 3 RPGs. Online play-by-post rpging really helps fill the creative/mind space that I need from roleplay. It's also convenient enough to fit round baby-life.

Great advice, Talizvar.

loranafaeriequeen wrote:...My husband's friends are mostly single men, and my friends are mostly single women. the ones who are left.

This seems like it would be a self-correcting problem if you approached it that way.


My wife and I don't have kids. Several of our friends do. There's some give&take that needs to happen on both sides.

On one hand, your friends need to accept that you've got kids, and that some of your social time will be spent catering to their needs. Maybe the game-time needs to go on a break at bedtime so you can put the kids down. Maybe they need to be quieter in the evenings, so as not to wake the kiddies. These aren't insurmountable obstacles.

On the other hand, you guys, as a couple, need to realize that your friends without children want a balanced relationship with you, not an unbalanced one. That means sometimes you have to get a babysitter. Whether that is simply to game at their house (because it's an unbalanced relationship if all the activity happens at your place), or going out and doing grown-up stuff without the kids, that goes a long way to making sure that your friends still view you as adult company, not just caretakers.

It can feel frustrating to the friends without kids to always have to go to your place, or always have to drag the kids along when it's time to go out for dinner, or pick kids movies on movie night. Both sides need to give a little.

When Sparkey-G and I started wargaming, he'd just had his first son. I got a box of toys for him to play with and kept them at my house, so that while he and I were gaming, his son could hang out with us, and have something to do. He's now at an age where he's actually starting to game himself.

As for finding new friends - just do stuff you're interested in, outside the house. If you want to meet gamer friends, hang out at the game store (with or without the kids), and talk to people. Just like making friends when you were younger

Redbeard wrote:On one hand, your friends need to accept that you've got kids, and that some of your social time will be spent catering to their needs. Maybe the game-time needs to go on a break at bedtime so you can put the kids down. Maybe they need to be quieter in the evenings, so as not to wake the kiddies. These aren't insurmountable obstacles.

On the other hand, you guys, as a couple, need to realize that your friends without children want a balanced relationship with you, not an unbalanced one. That means sometimes you have to get a babysitter. Whether that is simply to game at their house (because it's an unbalanced relationship if all the activity happens at your place), or going out and doing grown-up stuff without the kids, that goes a long way to making sure that your friends still view you as adult company, not just caretakers.

Very well put. The "balanced" issue is exactly what I have been trying to get at, albeit perhaps not so eloquently.

we are getting a babysitter so we can go to the renaissance festival this weekend, and mother's day saturday my husband is letting me go off for a few hours to paint. it is difficult, however, to get a babysitter more than once a month. I think my parents might take him to the beach for a week, and we're planning a lot of stuff for that week. We are also going to spend a weekend at the beach when we go get him, but that is a family vacatiion.

i'm personally one of those moms who is on the other side of the whole "look at my kid isn't he awesome" thing. I'm kind of in a place where i'd like to be able to talk to grownups about grownup things and be the center of attentiion for a few hours every once in a while. it has nothing to do with resentment or anythilng. I just kind of am afraid that I'm going to look around and the only people in my life will be my son and husband. I'm not sure that it will be healthy for my relationship with either of them.

As I and others have suggested, find some friends with kids. It really isn't that difficult if you give it a try.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Albatross wrote:Strange coming from a conservative...

Conservatism is having a stable core, a bedrock in the face of unknown change.

Not to derail the thread but the truly wise person knows when to change and when to stay the same, regardless of the way they lean instinctively.

An earlier poster asked about how many friends we still have from way long ago:
Early elementary school: 2
elementary school: @ 4
high school: 50+
The ones from elementary school will probably not change. I can see some changes likely happening with the high school ones, but me and my elementary school friends, we've kept in touch for almost our whole lives. So it is possible, just very hard.

Nightwatch, my first question would be "how long have you been out of High School?"

If it's been more than ten years I'd say that you have a somewhat different definition of the term friend than I do.

Not that I want to derail the topic into defining what a friend is and all that nonsense. I think we can leave it at that!

John, I do understand that it will be helpful for me to find friends with kids. And I plan to follow advice on here about it.

Nightwatch: 50 friends? Um, yeah I think I could only say that I've ever had 5 at any one time.

My husband and I talked about this last night, and he says it's because I rush things with people. I expect that they will instantly want to hang out and be friends after only a couple of weeks rather than allowing them time to really get to know me. And then lately I've had this tendency to be all moody about not being available and it's a real buzz kill for everyone involved.

I think you were right about balance, Redbeard, because we were constantly having people to our house because of our son rather than arranging to have "real" plans. It did get old after a while having to stop what we were doing to take care of his needs. And a lot of resentment was starting to build up between me and him about whose turn it was to deal with the baby or whether we should just call it a night. It would be better to just arrange for a babysitter once or twice a month rather than deal with that every Friday.

Monster Rain wrote:Nightwatch, my first question would be "how long have you been out of High School?"

If it's been more than ten years I'd say that you have a somewhat different definition of the term friend than I do.

Not that I want to derail the topic into defining what a friend is and all that nonsense. I think we can leave it at that!

Still in it. And yes, I'm pretty broad with my terms, just because there's all that gray matter floating about.
I totally agree that you lose most of your friends when you leave, seeing as what happened to all my elementary friends, and what I've seen from experience: my parents know only a few, and the same goes for pretty much everyone. I was just pointing out that it is possible to keep in touch and remain good friends with someone even if you don't see them that often: I have a couple of friends I've known for 10 years now and they're still my closest friends. We live in separate cities, about 2 hours apart. Not too far, but still a challenge.

Nightwatch wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Nightwatch, my first question would be "how long have you been out of High School?"

If it's been more than ten years I'd say that you have a somewhat different definition of the term friend than I do.

Not that I want to derail the topic into defining what a friend is and all that nonsense. I think we can leave it at that!

Still in it.

Monster Rain wrote:

Nightwatch wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Nightwatch, my first question would be "how long have you been out of High School?"

If it's been more than ten years I'd say that you have a somewhat different definition of the term friend than I do.

Not that I want to derail the topic into defining what a friend is and all that nonsense. I think we can leave it at that!

Still in it.

I appreciate you're pretty darn cheesed, but it happens sometimes. Everyone's got to learn at some point in their life.
Just because I'm in high school doesn't mean I think on a level lower than some of the people on Dakka. And we all have connections to others, and from my personal experience and what others have told me I came to those conclusions. It's up to you to trust my intuition or not.

It has nothing to do with your intuition or what level you or anyone else percieves you to be on...

The question for people and how many friends they still have from High School was clearly only relevant to those who have graduated. It's all good though, buddy.

Monster Rain wrote:It has nothing to do with your intuition or what level you or anyone else percieves you to be on...

The question for people and how many friends they still have from High School was clearly only relevant to those who have graduated. It's all good though, buddy.

Excellent. Fair enough.
EDIT:In my post I had kinda hoped the whole 50 friends thing would be enough to tell.

loranafaeriequeen wrote:John, I do understand that it will be helpful for me to find friends with kids. And I plan to follow advice on here about it.

It would be better to just arrange for a babysitter once or twice a month rather than deal with that every Friday.

Cool, it'll help a lot with your sanity. And theirs.

Schedule-wise, consider something like this:
- Kid-oriented play dates? Semi-Weekly to Bi-weekly
- Adult-oriented babysat? Semi-Monthly to Bi-monthly