Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Danny Internets wrote:How exactly is the first mission a "wet dream" for mech lists? It's just seize ground with slightly modified spearhead deployment.

I don't know, maybe the faster movement to get to the objectives, the protection granted while getting to said objective and last but not least the ability to tank shock your opponent off said objective... anymore points and I'd have a bed of nails to lie on.

What is with all the whining and complaining here. Is this Dakka, or is this Warseer?

Clthomps wrote:Wychecult could have 81 kp depending on the drug rolls...

102 KP by my count:

HQ 2x [Archite/Dracite = 3, Retinue = 3, Raider = 3] = 18
Elite 3x [Raider =3, Warriors =1] = 12
6x Warp Beasts [3] = 18
Troops 6x [Raider = 3, Wyches = 3] = 36
FA 3x Reavers [3] = 9
HS 3x Ravager [3] = 9

Although I doubt you could fit such a list in 2500.

I don't have Codex in front of me, so I could be wrong about the Warp Beasts. I seem to remember that in a Wyche cult you could take one per Wyche squad and it doesn't count as taking an Elite FOC slot.

Also, any character with Combat Drugs wargear can choose the Assault 12" option, which seems analogous to the case of a SM Librarian with Gate of Infinity, which they explicitly clarify as being 3 KP.

Good times, huh?

LMoE

Centurian99 wrote:What is with all the whining and complaining here. Is this Dakka, or is this Warseer?

Hahaha, thanks for the wake up call. This is Dakka, after all. All we are supposed to complain about is crappy rules. We are supposed to be the guys that win the tournaments, not bitch about them.

Reecius wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:What is with all the whining and complaining here. Is this Dakka, or is this Warseer?

Hahaha, thanks for the wake up call. This is Dakka, after all. All we are supposed to complain about is crappy rules. We are supposed to be the guys that win the tournaments, not bitch about them.

Exactly. All this whining about "changing the game" is more worthy of Warseer, or even YTTH.

The missions are wonky sometimes. Deal with it...they've always been that way. Remember modified kill points?

Good armies with good players will still come out on top, more likely than not. Mediocre players taking the netlist-of-the-week...won't. It's not because of the list, or because of the mission...it'll be because those players don't really understand the list they're playing, and so when confronted with an unusual situation they can't adapt.

LastManOnEarth wrote:

Clthomps wrote:Wychecult could have 81 kp depending on the drug rolls...

102 KP by my count:

HQ 2x [Archite/Dracite = 3, Retinue = 3, Raider = 3] = 18
Elite 3x [Raider =3, Warriors =1] = 12
6x Warp Beasts [3] = 18
Troops 6x [Raider = 3, Wyches = 3] = 36
FA 3x Reavers [3] = 9
HS 3x Ravager [3] = 9

Although I doubt you could fit such a list in 2500.

I don't have Codex in front of me, so I could be wrong about the Warp Beasts. I seem to remember that in a Wyche cult you could take one per Wyche squad and it doesn't count as taking an Elite FOC slot.

Also, any character with Combat Drugs wargear can choose the Assault 12" option, which seems analogous to the case of a SM Librarian with Gate of Infinity, which they explicitly clarify as being 3 KP.

Good times, huh?

LMoE

The warpbeast don't fit. You have to make some large sacrifices to get the points for the 3 jet bike squads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Centurian99 wrote:

Reecius wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:What is with all the whining and complaining here. Is this Dakka, or is this Warseer?

Hahaha, thanks for the wake up call. This is Dakka, after all. All we are supposed to complain about is crappy rules. We are supposed to be the guys that win the tournaments, not bitch about them.

Exactly. All this whining about "changing the game" is more worthy of Warseer, or even YTTH.

The missions are wonky sometimes. Deal with it...they've always been that way. Remember modified kill points?

Good armies with good players will still come out on top, more likely than not. Mediocre players taking the netlist-of-the-week...won't. It's not because of the list, or because of the mission...it'll be because those players don't really understand the list they're playing, and so when confronted with an unusual situation they can't adapt.

So your telling me that I have a chance to win Scenario #3 vs a Net-Listed Green Tide list played by a sub par player, when I play my dark eldar?

I call wishful thinking shenanigans!

IG88 wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:How exactly is the first mission a "wet dream" for mech lists? It's just seize ground with slightly modified spearhead deployment.

I don't know, maybe the faster movement to get to the objectives, the protection granted while getting to said objective and last but not least the ability to tank shock your opponent off said objective... anymore points and I'd have a bed of nails to lie on.

Your shocking revelation is that mechanized armies are good?

@Centurian99

I agree, buddy. We will see the same names at the top as every year because a good player overcomes adversity. And everyone will be facing the same challenges so despite the dumb ass mission (IMO) everyone is playing the same rules.

I am not changing my list, I spent too long getting it the way I want it. I think it will perform admirably no matter the mission or opponent.

One week and counting! Time to see what's what!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@clthomps
You have a good point, but I agree with Centurian99. I see good players win despite heavy odds against them consistently. WIll it be easy in that match up? Hell no, I hope I don't pull one of the best players in SD and his horde Orks on th at missions, but hey, if it happens and I win, then I REALLY won. I am not going to change my army on that potentiality.

And, Centurian99 knows what he's talking about. Check his tournament history!

I would really love a clarification on the drop pod in mission 3. It says each unit that has the potential to move 6" in a single game phase but drop pod only count as moving cruising speed they don't actually move.

Hopefully there will be some clarification for units such as drop pods & the Monolith, does not seem fair to gimp pods with a 3 kp status, way too easy that one is.

G

Centurian99 wrote:What is with all the whining and complaining here. Is this Dakka, or is this Warseer?

Probably because people dont like missions that penalize armies to the degree of making one sided match-ups.

The case with Ork horde vs Dark Eldar airforce is basically autolose even with poor luck from the DE. Even the best player couldnt win that.

I just thought of a way to win the Green tide vs my DE.


First turn I will move incredibly slow, and shoot all his kans and a squad to death. 4 KP for me. Then when he starts his move I will ask him to remeasure every model. by the time thats done the time will be up and I will be Victorious!

Danny Internets wrote:

IG88 wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:How exactly is the first mission a "wet dream" for mech lists? It's just seize ground with slightly modified spearhead deployment.

I don't know, maybe the faster movement to get to the objectives, the protection granted while getting to said objective and last but not least the ability to tank shock your opponent off said objective... anymore points and I'd have a bed of nails to lie on.

Your shocking revelation is that mechanized armies are good?

ding ding.... Great success

Centurian99 wrote:

Reecius wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:What is with all the whining and complaining here. Is this Dakka, or is this Warseer?

Hahaha, thanks for the wake up call. This is Dakka, after all. All we are supposed to complain about is crappy rules. We are supposed to be the guys that win the tournaments, not bitch about them.

Exactly. All this whining about "changing the game" is more worthy of Warseer, or even YTTH.

The missions are wonky sometimes. Deal with it...they've always been that way. Remember modified kill points?

Good armies with good players will still come out on top, more likely than not. Mediocre players taking the netlist-of-the-week...won't. It's not because of the list, or because of the mission...it'll be because those players don't really understand the list they're playing, and so when confronted with an unusual situation they can't adapt.

I agree, good players will adapt. I will adapt.

That still doesn't change that this is a mission that automatically disqualifies whole army books from being able to compete in the tournament and still have a shot at the win.

We can adapt, but the mission is just poorly designed.

thehod wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:What is with all the whining and complaining here. Is this Dakka, or is this Warseer?

Probably because people dont like missions that penalize armies to the degree of making one sided match-ups.

The case with Ork horde vs Dark Eldar airforce is basically autolose even with poor luck from the DE. Even the best player couldnt win that.

Without knowing exactly what he's taking and what he'd be facing, I can't give specifics...but so what? Every army has potentially bad matchups. That's part of the game too...getting lucky with your pairings.

That matchup would be bad news, even without the wonky KP rules.

Besides, taking a codex that's been unchanged for 10 years, and was created 2 editions of the game ago, and then claiming that because it wouldn't have a chance against one build the system is screwed is just ridiculous.

I agree entirely with centurian99 about the complainging here. What you are likely to see on the top tables is lots and lots of mech lists. Oh noes, leafblower ig vs maximum overdrive wolves. The kill points are fairly even in that game, even with the changes. While it does screw over all 7 dark eldar armies that will be playing this year, and puts a ding in regular mechdar, thats a minor loss. Anyone who is really good will probably win anways. But what it does is knock out the people who went out and bought a MO marine build or leafblower because its the biggest net list, and they couldnt play the game anyways. No loss there.

Yeah, but Dark Eldar have at least a shot with specific builds. Yeah, the codex is too old to account for every match up, and bad match ups happen, that's part of the game.

Trust me, normally I would be right with you. You adapt, you play hard, and if you meet your match, you make a game of it. Skill trumps codex and list (though they help).

A mission should never penalize you automatically just for what you take. That should be the first rule of good mission design. Missions provide challenge, missions can make players think a little harder then just going for tabling the opponent.

Hell, lets just go back to third edition and play ambush and mud fight all over again.

Like I said, I like the first two missions. They are an improvement over last years. They are a little bland (I much prefer the Adepticon system of missions), but matches the philosophy of the tournament. The last mission looks like they where intentionally trying to minimalize the so called "dreaded leaf blower list" (which shouldn't be dreaded anyways).

Aard Boyz is all about the cavalcade the crazy, at least to me. Mission three detracts from that, and that is probably my biggest complaint.

Oh well, Aard boyz noooooo....

Clthomps wrote:I just thought of a way to win the Green tide vs my DE.


First turn I will move incredibly slow, and shoot all his kans and a squad to death. 4 KP for me. Then when he starts his move I will ask him to remeasure every model. by the time thats done the time will be up and I will be Victorious!

Or you could just table him.

Horrorfexes and disintegrators spell doom for foot-slogging orks, and if you run a wych cult and get a +1WS unit or two (or make Lelith +1WS) you'll also be in good shape. Remember that fearless units are immune to pinning and morale tests, but not to leadership checks!

When I read the missions I initially thought to try kicking down my KP count by putting in slower units...but then decided that I like my list the way it is, and if I'm a good general, I should be able to do just fine. Foot-slogging lists don't scare me (except for foot-slogging IG who are all stubborn, have grenades, and counter-attack); I anticipate that round 3 I'll be facing another mech player.

Hm so whoever gets the noob first mission will have a huge advantage.. Last year the missions were good at GW realized that capturing 4+ objectives OVER your opponent to score a massacre is a bad idea

I dont care who I play, I can guarantee you wont get 4 objectives over me.. Yet a noob just gets demolished and gives up a massacre when you should be able to prevent that EASILY

Ah well.. Last years missions were awesome.. I sorta expected more of the same

Guess the chimeras being back ordered wasnt a bad thing :p Could still play blob squads or just redesign a space wolf or BA list

Mahu wrote:
A mission should never penalize you automatically just for what you take. That should be the first rule of good mission design. Missions provide challenge, missions can make players think a little harder then just going for tabling the opponent.

Why not? As long as the hatred is spread around, I really don't have a problem with it. Trying to make the missions equal just makes them bland and boring as crap. Once you start trying to make missions challenging and different, you're going to get some mismatches.

I'm still stuck on the notion a Green Tide will actually be played at 2500 points. Very few people can even hope to play fast enough with that many Orks. Add in the likelyhood of having a PAINTED Green Tide, it will be even harder to finish a game. I can only imagine the headache of playing with/against 200+ plastic colored models all mixed together (remember, there will be 1-2 KFF forcing units to be a bit close together).

Mission 3 will be a separating factor among all the 2-0 finishers that day. Good players simply figure it out.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Clthomps wrote:I just thought of a way to win the Green tide vs my DE.


First turn I will move incredibly slow, and shoot all his kans and a squad to death. 4 KP for me. Then when he starts his move I will ask him to remeasure every model. by the time thats done the time will be up and I will be Victorious!

Or you could just table him.

Horrorfexes and disintegrators spell doom for foot-slogging orks, and if you run a wych cult and get a +1WS unit or two (or make Lelith +1WS) you'll also be in good shape. Remember that fearless units are immune to pinning and morale tests, but not to leadership checks!

When I read the missions I initially thought to try kicking down my KP count by putting in slower units...but then decided that I like my list the way it is, and if I'm a good general, I should be able to do just fine. Foot-slogging lists don't scare me (except for foot-slogging IG who are all stubborn, have grenades, and counter-attack); I anticipate that round 3 I'll be facing another mech player.

This will be my plan, but against large hordes without movement trays I doubt I can table him in 2-3 rounds....

Centurian99 wrote:

Mahu wrote:
A mission should never penalize you automatically just for what you take. That should be the first rule of good mission design. Missions provide challenge, missions can make players think a little harder then just going for tabling the opponent.

Why not? As long as the hatred is spread around, I really don't have a problem with it. Trying to make the missions equal just makes them bland and boring as crap. Once you start trying to make missions challenging and different, you're going to get some mismatches.

The hatred is most definitely not spread around in this situation, if it was I would have less of a problem with it.

There are many ways to make missions varied and challenging without resorting to hurting someone based on their list design. Between different ways you can do objectives, kill points, victory points, and any even breaking out table quarters, and put that into a tiered system like Adepticon you maximize the difficulty without intentionally hurting somebodies playstyle.

This is a giant FU to all the new BA codex players. Thank god I have four armies.

Sarigar wrote:I'm still stuck on the notion a Green Tide will actually be played at 2500 points. Very few people can even hope to play fast enough with that many Orks. Add in the likelyhood of having a PAINTED Green Tide, it will be even harder to finish a game. I can only imagine the headache of playing with/against 200+ plastic colored models all mixed together (remember, there will be 1-2 KFF forcing units to be a bit close together).

Mission 3 will be a separating factor among all the 2-0 finishers that day. Good players simply figure it out.

I have a friend who brought gazzy, big mek, 6 squads of 30 boyz, snikrot, lootas, and storm boyz last year. All painted, all games went at least 5 turns.

Hm so vehicle squadrons and blob squads of guard will be insane in the last mission.. Just avoid getting tabled and you can prob auto win vs any mech period

Centurian99 wrote:
Why not? As long as the hatred is spread around, I really don't have a problem with it. Trying to make the missions equal just makes them bland and boring as crap. Once you start trying to make missions challenging and different, you're going to get some mismatches.

This missions would be fine if they all had some slight disadvantage towards a different type of army each mission is fine with skill can be overcome. But this is one mission that gives a penalization to an extreme. Simply saying "too bad" or "adapt" is a very poor excuse and that line of thinking is what made the gladiator missions what they are. I enjoy good games but I hate one sided games even if I am winning because it is not fun at all. I enjoy good competition and I agree with your views on making missions challenging but I would rather make it challenging to score a massacre than to make it a struggle to even tie.

But GW has supplied the missions so it is what it is.

The first two missions favor mobile armies, so it's good odds that the game three top tables will be close KP wise. Bring what you have or make something new, you takes your chances and rolls the dice...

What better way for GW US to sell more infantry boxes, right?

Sarigar wrote:I'm still stuck on the notion a Green Tide will actually be played at 2500 points. Very few people can even hope to play fast enough with that many Orks. Add in the likelyhood of having a PAINTED Green Tide, it will be even harder to finish a game. I can only imagine the headache of playing with/against 200+ plastic colored models all mixed together (remember, there will be 1-2 KFF forcing units to be a bit close together).

Mission 3 will be a separating factor among all the 2-0 finishers that day. Good players simply figure it out.

Last time I checked being fully painted was not in the rule packet. The only thing they mention is that you have to use citadel models and any conversions need to be 60% GW parts.

Dave_Fay wrote:for mission 3 do Drops pods, Demons or anything that deepstrikes count as 3?

no i dont think deepstrikers count demons would count if they have wings or can move over 12"