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Clthomps wrote:

Sarigar wrote:I'm still stuck on the notion a Green Tide will actually be played at 2500 points. Very few people can even hope to play fast enough with that many Orks. Add in the likelyhood of having a PAINTED Green Tide, it will be even harder to finish a game. I can only imagine the headache of playing with/against 200+ plastic colored models all mixed together (remember, there will be 1-2 KFF forcing units to be a bit close together).

Mission 3 will be a separating factor among all the 2-0 finishers that day. Good players simply figure it out.

Last time I checked being fully painted was not in the rule packet. The only thing they mention is that you have to use citadel models and any conversions need to be 60% GW parts.

60% now? Guess ill bring my gram weighing device! MR JUDGE this according to the weight of the model it is only 57% percentage GW parts.. It must be disqualified!

Seriously ive asked this before.. how do you judge such a thing?

Wow I'm really questioning the 2nd hammerhead vs 2nd broadside debate for mission 3. Still as Tau I'm sitting at 24 KP for mission 3. Devilfish are tricky to kill if played right and can still beat on infantry. Only running 4 troops makes getting maximum win on mission one hard though hmm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A friend of mine is running MSU Deffcopters with his orks, he will get gakked on last mission.

Kharnflakes wrote:

Dave_Fay wrote:for mission 3 do Drops pods, Demons or anything that deepstrikes count as 3?

no i dont think deepstrikers count demons would count if they have wings or can move over 12"

Over 6" you mean.

Let's make a quick list:

***Marines***
Assault Marines
Units with Jump Packs
Libbies with GoI
Rhinos
Razorbacks
Land Raiders
Whirlwinds
Vindicators
Jetbikes
Bikes
Units on Bikes
Land Speeders
Predators
Libbies with Wings of Sanguinus
Libby Dread with Wings of Sanguinus
Stormraven Gunships

***Orks***
Battlewagons
Trukks
Trakks
Stormboyz
Nob Bikers
Warbikers
Deffkoptas
Looted Wagon
Warbosses on Bikes
Weirdboyz/Warpheadz

***Chaos***
Raptors
Units with Jump Packs
Chaos Bikers
Units on Bikes
Predators
Rhinos
Land Raiders
Vindicators
Winged Daemon Princes
Units on Daemonic Steeds (except the Palanquin of Nurgle)

***Eldar***
Wave Serpents
Falcons
Vypers
Jetbikes
Shining Spears
Swooping Hawks
Warp Spiders
Fire Prisms
Autarchs armed w/Warp Jump Generators or Swooping Hawk Wings

***Daemons***
Bloodthirster
Lord of Change
Fateweaver
Herald of Tzeentch on Disc/Chariot
Herald of Slaanesh on Mount/Chariot
Flamers of Tzeentch
Fiends of Slaanesh
Flesh Hounds of Khorne
Seekers of Slaanesh
Screamers of Tzeentch
Furies
Winged Daemon Princes

***Tyranids***
Raveners
Gargoyles
Harpies
Tyranid Shrikes
Sky-Slasher Swarms
Parasite of Mortrex
Winged Hive Tyrants

***Tau***
Devilfish
Piranhas
Vespids
Hammerheads
Skyrays

***Daemonhunters/Witchhunters***
Seraphim
Units with Jetpacks
Saint Celestine
Immolators
Exorcists
Rhinos
Chimeras
Land Raiders
Arco-Flagellants
Daemonhosts

***Necrons***
Necron Destroyers
Necron Heavy Destroyers
Lords with Destroyer Bodies
Wraiths
Scarab Swarms

***Imperial Guard***
Chimeras
Rough Riders
Hellhounds (and their Variants)
Valkyries
Vendettas
Leman Russ Battle Tanks (and their Variants)
Hydras
Ordnance Batteries (Basilisks, Medusas, etc.)
Manticores
Deathstrike Missile Launchers

***Dark Eldar***
Raiders
Ravagers
Hellions
Scourges
Talos


All of these things are worth 3 KPs. Correct me if I've missed any (especially Dark Eldar - it's the only Codex I don't own).

Why make a list like that? Here is an easier list

Anything non-infantry non-flying mc.. Thats basically what the rule means (yes there are a few exceptions)

My all Ork bike list isn't so bad. It's only 21points. 15x deff koptas, 10x nob bikers, 12x warbikers and 2x hq's on bikes.

Kirasu wrote:Why make a list like that? Here is an easier list

Anything non-infantry non-flying mc.. Thats basically what the rule means (yes there are a few exceptions)

Because lists are easier to look at quickly for reference than is just thinking "anything non-infantry, non-flying and a MC." Well, except Monoliths, and arco-flagellants, and nearly all Tau units.

Sorry if my list offended you in some way.

Oh no, they nerfed the 60 Fury army that I was going to bring!

arco flagellants? if I saw those in 'ard boyz hell Id give him a free kill point.. You didnt offend me at all, Im just saying even with those exceptions.. as i said there are a few.. Its still drastically faster to just list the exceptions heh

Already thought I'd pass on the local qualifier.

Now I'm really glad I didn't bother to buy anything to optimize either my Blood Angels or mech IG.

Not even showing up to watch foot horde armies -- or worse, foot Marines -- take the win. Note that even the objective mission promotes foot lists, given diagonal deployment. Maybe next year GW can just mandate a trench system and a no man's land and take 40K tactics to their logical conclusion.

***Dark Eldar***
Raiders
Ravagers
Hellions
Scourges
Talos


All of these things are worth 3 KPs. Correct me if I've missed any (especially Dark Eldar - it's the only Codex I don't own).

Yup, you missed every single HQ unit, jetbikes, and any unit that has combat drugs.

Its easer to list the units that do not count:

Warriors
Talos
Groq
mandrakes

Where are people getting the idea that tabling your opponent is a massacre? Perhaps in some tournaments that is the case but the rulebook merely states you "win" and there is no real mention of it in the 'ard boyz rules

If you have 1 scoring unit left and you table your opponent in the first mission, there is no possible way you can have 4 more objectives than your opponent.. He has 0, so you can only get 1.. Which is still a win

Sorta silly to assume that if both you and your opponent are down to 1 model the person who dies first gets massacred.. Its just he is wiped out. The rule is to prevent people with like 4 Kps getting wiped out and still beating someone, nothing more

Id check the score sheets of people at the tournament for such.. interesting interpretations

Here's a question if a ork army runs ghazzy would the whole army be worth 3kps in missin 3 since with his auto 6" waagh the whole army would be able to move over 6" in a movement phase?

There's one thing that no one seems to have brought up, and which is at the core of why I hate the design of the third mission.

By explicitly penalizing mechanized armies (make no mistake, this is the obvious intention of mission 3's design) this is just a subtle way of enforcing comp in what is supposed to be the no-comp "hard" tournament. As Mahu pointed out, no one likes getting reamed based on what they bring to the table, but that's exactly what this is: being put at a huge disadvantage for bringing a competitive army to the table. They've done similar things in the past with their modified killpoints missions in 'Ard Boyz, but never anything so over-the-top.

The tyranid list I was planning on bringing and still am going to bring only has 27 kill points

Clthomps wrote:

Sarigar wrote:I'm still stuck on the notion a Green Tide will actually be played at 2500 points. Very few people can even hope to play fast enough with that many Orks. Add in the likelyhood of having a PAINTED Green Tide, it will be even harder to finish a game. I can only imagine the headache of playing with/against 200+ plastic colored models all mixed together (remember, there will be 1-2 KFF forcing units to be a bit close together).

Mission 3 will be a separating factor among all the 2-0 finishers that day. Good players simply figure it out.

Last time I checked being fully painted was not in the rule packet. The only thing they mention is that you have to use citadel models and any conversions need to be 60% GW parts.

Sarigar was making the point that with a painted army it is generally easier to differentiate squads, and therefore it speeds play.

Thankfully I'm not playing this year, but if I was it would be bad. 55 KP all together for my list (modified leafblower). I could destroy every enemy unit and still risk losing.

Well, I suppose that's not too bad for my Mech Ork army. I have 2 Battlewagons, 2 trukks, 1 Warboss on a Bike, and a Nob Biker squad, plus 2-3 Fast attack slots. I believe my grand total comes to 34-37 Kps. Which seems in the safe zone, or at least well below average.


@ Corbett. In regards to Ghazzy, what on earth are you talking about? A Waagh occurs in the Shooting phase, not movement and it wouldn't allow you to move MORE Than 6", it just allows you to take a 6" move instead of rolling a D6. I'm just wondering if the people you play with have some weird misinterpretation of the rules.

If you added the running to the calculation than EVERY single model would be worth 3 Kp. It's only for units that can move more than 6" in the movement phase.

Clthomps wrote:

Sarigar wrote:I'm still stuck on the notion a Green Tide will actually be played at 2500 points. Very few people can even hope to play fast enough with that many Orks. Add in the likelyhood of having a PAINTED Green Tide, it will be even harder to finish a game. I can only imagine the headache of playing with/against 200+ plastic colored models all mixed together (remember, there will be 1-2 KFF forcing units to be a bit close together).

Mission 3 will be a separating factor among all the 2-0 finishers that day. Good players simply figure it out.

Last time I checked being fully painted was not in the rule packet. The only thing they mention is that you have to use citadel models and any conversions need to be 60% GW parts.

You're correct, but I never stated there was a painting requirement. My point was that painting can make it a whole lot easier telling units apart. Green tide (or plastic colored tide) just gets horribly confusing and time consuming. Multi unit assaults with an unpainted green tide.....uggggh.

Never said it was impossible for Green Tide to be played and actually finish a game. However, I've witnessed many of these types of games and getting through only 3 turns is not uncommon. Many players simply don't play fast enough to handle this many models in a 2500 point game. Having an unpainted green tide will even slow the game down even more.

And the whining continues...


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Kirasu wrote:Where are people getting the idea that tabling your opponent is a massacre? Perhaps in some tournaments that is the case but the rulebook merely states you "win" and there is no real mention of it in the 'ard boyz rules

If you have 1 scoring unit left and you table your opponent in the first mission, there is no possible way you can have 4 more objectives than your opponent.. He has 0, so you can only get 1.. Which is still a win

Sorta silly to assume that if both you and your opponent are down to 1 model the person who dies first gets massacred.. Its just he is wiped out. The rule is to prevent people with like 4 Kps getting wiped out and still beating someone, nothing more

Id check the score sheets of people at the tournament for such.. interesting interpretations

Its pretty accepted tournament practice that if you table your opponent, you automatically get max points.

Besides, in game 1, a sufficiently large squad could hold all five objectives, so you're incorrect there.

Kirasu wrote:Where are people getting the idea that tabling your opponent is a massacre? Perhaps in some tournaments that is the case but the rulebook merely states you "win" and there is no real mention of it in the 'ard boyz rules

If you have 1 scoring unit left and you table your opponent in the first mission, there is no possible way you can have 4 more objectives than your opponent.. He has 0, so you can only get 1.. Which is still a win

Sorta silly to assume that if both you and your opponent are down to 1 model the person who dies first gets massacred.. Its just he is wiped out. The rule is to prevent people with like 4 Kps getting wiped out and still beating someone, nothing more

Id check the score sheets of people at the tournament for such.. interesting interpretations

The rules do simply state that you win. You win, opponent loses. It doesn't say that you get a small win, or a medium win, or a large win....but that you win and take the field. In every major event I've been a part of, a win translates into full points if you table your opponent.

If you disagree with that, exactly where would you have the line be drawn? What justification do you have for not giving out full points to the winner?

The rulebook is very clear that if you table your opponent, you win, regardless of mission objectives or other factors.

Given that it isn't the Standard Missions though, I would suggest contacting your TO to make sure he has a functioning Brain Cell and that a Wipeout! = Max Points for you.

Of course, some guy hiding a single model away from you for a couple turns is still a (very lame) way that they can pull off a massacre on you.

Kirasu wrote:
60% now? Guess ill bring my gram weighing device! MR JUDGE this according to the weight of the model it is only 57% percentage GW parts.. It must be disqualified!

Seriously ive asked this before.. how do you judge such a thing?

It's not that hard. Seriously, I can look at a model, and know if the base part of the model is a GW kit or not. What this does is stops someone from using an Ultraforge daemon, a warmachine warcaster, or a Tamiya WWII halftrack as the core of the model, swapping the weapons for bolt pistols, and then claiming that they should be allowed.

Danny Internets wrote:
There's one thing that no one seems to have brought up, and which is at the core of why I hate the design of the third mission.

By explicitly penalizing mechanized armies (make no mistake, this is the obvious intention of mission 3's design) this is just a subtle way of enforcing comp in what is supposed to be the no-comp "hard" tournament. As Mahu pointed out, no one likes getting reamed based on what they bring to the table, but that's exactly what this is: being put at a huge disadvantage for bringing a competitive army to the table. They've done similar things in the past with their modified killpoints missions in 'Ard Boyz, but never anything so over-the-top.

If you're correct in your assertion than the competitive armies will all be mechanized, then this mission doesn't change anything. The expectation would be that your army, and your opponent's army would both be mechanized, and therefore both would be giving up more kill points.

This mission isn't the end of the world as you know it. If you believe that going mechanized gives you the best chance to win missions one and two, then do you really think that running a footslogger list is going to overcome those advantages because of one mission? I don't. Furthermore, if you are correct, that fully-meched out armies are so powerful, then if you bring one, you shouldn't even worry about playing a non-mech army in the final round. In your world, the mech approach is the only competitive way to play, so why would you even consider that a non-mech army would make it to the top tables?

I'm not sold on the idea that all meched-out armies are the "most competitive" though. In my world, the army you know how to play the best is the most competitive army you can bring. I don't think this mission is nearly as unreasonable as some of the missions in previous years that essentially handed the win to the person who won the dice-off.

Furthermore, you know about this mission ahead of time, and have plenty of time to change your list. If it really does change the dynamics of the game, and you're such a good, competitive player, come up with the response list. In a way, having the mission that challenges the standard assumptions of list design allows the actual good players to build their lists knowing what they will need. The only people this penalizes are the fake-good-players, the wannabes, who haven't an original thought in their heads and rely on the internet to tell them what to play. In my opinion, that's a good thing.

But, for anyone who falls into that second category, and wants to be told what to play to get through all these missions, it's a kan-wall list with a lot of lootas and a lot of footsloggers.

As a noob, I could use some "splain to me like im 2" action.

First of all, I'm confused about the Special Rules. Why are there normal traits like Infiltrate listed there and what critical document did I not read that would have deignorantified me?

Ork wise, am I getting that Koptas, truk and wagon transported boyz and nobz with a full complement of stormboyz is hosed?

I think Tyranids featuring Tervigons are the best for dealing with this set of missions.

If you're correct in your assertion than the competitive armies will all be mechanized, then this mission doesn't change anything. The expectation would be that your army, and your opponent's army would both be mechanized, and therefore both would be giving up more kill points.

Logic fail. Stating that mechanized armies are competitive is not the same as saying one must be mechanized in order to be competitive. There are plenty of hybrid mech competitive builds (IG does this extremely well) and also non-mech competitive builds (see Space Wolves).

This mission isn't the end of the world as you know it. If you believe that going mechanized gives you the best chance to win missions one and two, then do you really think that running a footslogger list is going to overcome those advantages because of one mission? I don't. Furthermore, if you are correct, that fully-meched out armies are so powerful, then if you bring one, you shouldn't even worry about playing a non-mech army in the final round. In your world, the mech approach is the only competitive way to play, so why would you even consider that a non-mech army would make it to the top tables?

Please find where I claimed that playing mech is the only competitive way to play. I'll wait. Hint: you won't find it because I didn't say it. Any why didn't I say it? Because it's not true. See previous paragraph.

Furthermore, you know about this mission ahead of time, and have plenty of time to change your list. If it really does change the dynamics of the game, and you're such a good, competitive player, come up with the response list.

You realize the tournament is next weekend, right? Don't be obtuse. Writing a list takes minutes. Obtaining and building models takes a wee bit longer.

Danny Internets wrote:
Logic fail. Stating that mechanized armies are competitive is not the same as saying one must be mechanized in order to be competitive. There are plenty of hybrid mech competitive builds (IG does this extremely well) and also non-mech competitive builds (see Space Wolves).

If there is a logic failure here, it is on your part. You claimed, in your prior post:

Danny Internets wrote:... but that's exactly what this is: being put at a huge disadvantage for bringing a competitive army to the table.

Gerneral consensus: the 3rd mission penalizes mechanized armies.
Your assertion: the 3rd mission penalizes competitive armies.

My response was not making this inference, it was responding to your claim. But now that we've got that out of the way...

Please find where I claimed that playing mech is the only competitive way to play. I'll wait. Hint: you won't find it because I didn't say it. Any why didn't I say it? Because it's not true. See previous paragraph.

So you're taking back your statement that the 3rd mission penalizes competitive armies? Good. It doesn't. It penalizes highly mobile armies. If you believe that there are competitive armies that aren't highly mobile and that won't suffer in game three, play them.

You realize the tournament is next weekend, right?

No, I live in a cave...

Don't be obtuse. Writing a list takes minutes. Obtaining and building models takes a wee bit longer.

If you were a competitive player, you'd figure it out, it's not that hard. It's not like they need to be painted or anything. I built and painted (and won best-painted awards with) a 5000 point army in a week last year. Obtaining models? You're playing this tournament at a game store, right? Go spend some money in their shop, you'll have stuff the same day. Get next-day shipping from GWs site. Then you've got all week's evenings to build them. It's 'ard boyz, you don't need to file mold lines, or drill bolter barrels. Clip parts, glue parts, done.

You're just making excuses. If this mission is that bad, and you're the competitive player you claim to be, do what it takes to make the army that will win the tournament with the up-front knowledge of what the missions are. Whining about it isn't competitive, either before or after. You know what's coming, you have the time to react.

jbunny wrote:Let's see it hoses ever transport in the game, It kills Blood Angels completely, and it makes no sense what so ever.

agreed I have a feeling that I am going to get stomped into the ground in this mission

Redbeard, it helps to actually read the posts you're quoting. Again, I will repeat:

The 3rd mission penalizes mechanized armies. Mechanized armies are competitive. That does not mean that mechanized armies are the only competitive builds. I'm sorry you have such trouble grasping this simple concept. Continue to believe it, if you like.

If you were a competitive player, you'd figure it out, it's not that hard. It's not like they need to be painted or anything. I built and painted (and won best-painted awards with) a 5000 point army in a week last year. Obtaining models? You're playing this tournament at a game store, right? Go spend some money in their shop, you'll have stuff the same day. Get next-day shipping from GWs site. Then you've got all week's evenings to build them. It's 'ard boyz, you don't need to file mold lines, or drill bolter barrels. Clip parts, glue parts, done.

Sorry, but I have no interest in spending hundreds of dollars to build a new army in less than a week, and frankly it's unreasonable to expect anyone to do so. Some of us value our time and money. I'll still be bringing roughly the same list as I've been building and practicing with for 2 months now. I'm not about to bend over backwards to abide by some comp nonsense built into the missions.

Danny Internets wrote:Redbeard, it helps to actually read the posts you're quoting. Again, I will repeat:

The 3rd mission penalizes mechanized armies. Mechanized armies are competitive. That does not mean that mechanized armies are the only competitive builds. I'm sorry you have such trouble grasping this simple concept. Continue to believe it, if you like.

I did read your post. I'm not the one having trouble expressing myself. Did you, or did you not claim that the 3rd mission penalizes you for bringing a competitive army to the table?

Just to get this straight, your current assertion is that all mechanized armies, and some non-mechanized armies are competitive?

The third mission doesn't penalize competitive armies. It penalizes mobile armies. Heck, now you're even claiming that all mechanized armies are competitive. (I bolded this in your statement above), and I don't even know where to begin to tell you how wrong that is. I think you can bring a non-competitive mechanized build and be penalized just as much.

Sorry, but I have no interest in spending hundreds of dollars to build a new army in less than a week, and frankly it's unreasonable to expect anyone to do so. Some of us value our time and money. I'll still be bringing roughly the same list as I've been building and practicing with for 2 months now. I'm not about to bend over backwards to abide by some comp nonsense built into the missions.

Nope, instead you'll use it as a springboard for why 'ard boys doesn't count as a real tournament because it had comp-esque missions and use this as a conveniently pre-written excuse if you don't make the cut.