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Some of those tables were awful - there was one that was completely covered in blue styrofoam - the tyranid player got to advance on a mechanized army across the entire table without any LOS. =p

Janthkin wrote:

Shrubs wrote:Thanks for the batrep and grats on the win!

There's one thing I didn't understand: you moved Lelith + raider 12" + 2" disembark + 2" fleet + 6" assault = 22". But since the deployment was pitched battle, weren't you 24" apart?

Lelith (and those Wyches) had the 12" assault drug. For difficult terrain, you still only roll 2d6, and double the highest result. So total assault range: 12" + ~3" + 2" fleet + 12" assault = ~29" (just a touch under).

There is no way that Lelith could have had the benefit of the 12" assault drug under the parameters expressed in the OP.

Lelith only gains the benefit of the drugs that her retinue has. In this tournament, Lelith was purchased without a retinue, and was merely included in another squad. Lelith does not gain the drug benefits of a squad she joins and does not have the drugs wargear herself.

Per the GW FAQ on DE:

Q. Does Lelith Hesperax gain the advantages of
the combat drugs her retinue has?
A. She does, otherwise she would be the only
Wych in the army (and probably in the universe)
not to use combat drugs.

There is no mention of gaining the drug effect of any other unit besides that of a retinue, so one would be very hard pressed to argue that Lelith would gain the drug affect of any non-retinue unit she happened to join.

Saldiven wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

Shrubs wrote:Thanks for the batrep and grats on the win!

There's one thing I didn't understand: you moved Lelith + raider 12" + 2" disembark + 2" fleet + 6" assault = 22". But since the deployment was pitched battle, weren't you 24" apart?

Lelith (and those Wyches) had the 12" assault drug. For difficult terrain, you still only roll 2d6, and double the highest result. So total assault range: 12" + ~3" + 2" fleet + 12" assault = ~29" (just a touch under).

There is no way that Lelith could have had the benefit of the 12" assault drug under the parameters expressed in the OP.

Lelith only gains the benefit of the drugs that her retinue has. In this tournament, Lelith was purchased without a retinue, and was merely included in another squad. Lelith does not gain the drug benefits of a squad she joins and does not have the drugs wargear herself.

Per the GW FAQ on DE:

Q. Does Lelith Hesperax gain the advantages of
the combat drugs her retinue has?
A. She does, otherwise she would be the only
Wych in the army (and probably in the universe)
not to use combat drugs.

There is no mention of gaining the drug effect of any other unit besides that of a retinue, so one would be very hard pressed to argue that Lelith would gain the drug affect of any non-retinue unit she happened to join.

Yes and no.

The FAQ also tells you that Lelith uses drugs. How you arrive at which drug she uses is unclear. Its something I hadn't considered before to be honest; I haven't run Dark Eldar at 1750 before this tournament, this was my first time taking her without a retinue, and this was only my second tournament using a wych cult - I'm a recent convert from using a kabal.

There's only three choices:

1. She picks her drug.
2. She rolls for her drug.
3. She takes on the drug of a unit that she joins.

I thought my way (#3) was the most fair, but the rules aren't clear on it.

Honestly, I don't envision anyone ever showing up at a gaming table and someone arguing with me for how Lelith was assigned her drug. Dakka is host to all sorts of armchair generals and would be rules lawyers, but I don't expect to see it on a table.

Another series of great wins for you. Do you think you will ever find a tourney that actually challenges what you bring every game?

WarOne wrote:Another series of great wins for you. Do you think you will ever find a tourney that actually challenges what you bring every game?

Hah, unfortunately you have people like me who haven't played a ton of games (and thusly aren't very good) who show up to these because I love to play Warhammer 40k and see this as a chance to simply play a whole bunch of games in a relatively short amount of time. Perhaps the 'Ard Boyz semi-finals will be more of a test because people can't just show up and play. It's got to be earned. I know I have one player from my FLGS that I would love to see Dash face.

eNvY wrote:

WarOne wrote:Another series of great wins for you. Do you think you will ever find a tourney that actually challenges what you bring every game?

Hah, unfortunately you have people like me who haven't played a ton of games (and thusly aren't very good) who show up to these because I love to play Warhammer 40k and see this as a chance to simply play a whole bunch of games in a relatively short amount of time. Perhaps the 'Ard Boyz semi-finals will be more of a test because people can't just show up and play. It's got to be earned. I know I have one player from my FLGS that I would love to see Dash face.

I too am in the same boat. I have very few games under the belt as it is, and all I digest from watching these reports and looking up tactics on websites is to understand the information present. It is there, it is present, and with it will help me become the better player I want to be.

Well, it'd be unfair to set rough stakes on a simple wager of "you won't win the tourney", so how about this. I bet I'll get more battle points than you. Winner sets loser's sig on dakka for a year.

Player A and Fargo can log in and propose their own wagers if they care to, they've both seen this thread.

Ooh, a high wager indeed!

You can't pivot a vehicle on the spot to get extra distance. The MAXIMUM the vehicle can move is its max movement. Meaning sure you can pivot to get around terrain, fit through narrow gaps, etc and pivoting doesn't COST you movement, but if any part of your vehicle ends up further away from your max distance than where you started [STARTED, as in pre-pivoting] then you're moving too far.

In a nutshell, measure 12" from your hull before touching the model at all. Now pivot all you want, but you'll never get further than that measurement.

^^um, wrong thread I think?

that is an interesting point about Lelith with no retinue, though I tend to think she must have them [the drugs] in some capacity regardless of IC status? though I will admit this isn't really spelled out too well, either in the Codex or the FAQ...the intention seems to be there, but we all know what that means.

also, great batreps - it's always interesting just how fast those bottles empty out...maybe you need to start upgrading

Dashofpepper wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

Shrubs wrote:Thanks for the batrep and grats on the win!

There's one thing I didn't understand: you moved Lelith + raider 12" + 2" disembark + 2" fleet + 6" assault = 22". But since the deployment was pitched battle, weren't you 24" apart?

Lelith (and those Wyches) had the 12" assault drug. For difficult terrain, you still only roll 2d6, and double the highest result. So total assault range: 12" + ~3" + 2" fleet + 12" assault = ~29" (just a touch under).

There is no way that Lelith could have had the benefit of the 12" assault drug under the parameters expressed in the OP.

Lelith only gains the benefit of the drugs that her retinue has. In this tournament, Lelith was purchased without a retinue, and was merely included in another squad. Lelith does not gain the drug benefits of a squad she joins and does not have the drugs wargear herself.

Per the GW FAQ on DE:

Q. Does Lelith Hesperax gain the advantages of
the combat drugs her retinue has?
A. She does, otherwise she would be the only
Wych in the army (and probably in the universe)
not to use combat drugs.

There is no mention of gaining the drug effect of any other unit besides that of a retinue, so one would be very hard pressed to argue that Lelith would gain the drug affect of any non-retinue unit she happened to join.

Yes and no.

The FAQ also tells you that Lelith uses drugs. How you arrive at which drug she uses is unclear. Its something I hadn't considered before to be honest; I haven't run Dark Eldar at 1750 before this tournament, this was my first time taking her without a retinue, and this was only my second tournament using a wych cult - I'm a recent convert from using a kabal.

There's only three choices:

1. She picks her drug.
2. She rolls for her drug.
3. She takes on the drug of a unit that she joins.

I thought my way (#3) was the most fair, but the rules aren't clear on it.

Honestly, I don't envision anyone ever showing up at a gaming table and someone arguing with me for how Lelith was assigned her drug. Dakka is host to all sorts of armchair generals and would be rules lawyers, but I don't expect to see it on a table.

Actually, #3 is far from the most fair. It has no support in the rules other than a fluff sentence in the FAQ. Using that option merely grants Lelith an ability that is not given by her rules and removes the limitation that she must have a retinue in order to gain a drug effect. The FAQ specifically deals with whether or not Lelith gains the drug effect of her retinue. It has no other broader application. Lelith does not have the combat drugs wargear and no special rules that give her the combat drug effect.

The only option by RAW is that Lelith only gains a drug effect if she has a retinue.

Edit: And for the record, I've been playing DE exclusively since about 2002. I believe the rule is ABSOLUTELY clear on this. No retinue, no drug. Lelith is already cheaper by 15 or so points than a equivalently equipped Archite, and now you think it's ok to add a drug effect that's not considered in her points value?

Lelith joining a unit of wyches does not gain any drug benefit. Her rules only kick in on if she has a retinue, which is why in this list, you would have been better off going with a wyche archite that you could have given combat drugs to.

I almost always run an idependant archon with a squad of wyches and he gains no benefit from their drugs, but if they happen to have 12" assualt he can keep up with them via his Combat Drug Dispenser.

How do people who pick and choose when to use RAW sleep at night?

Saldiven wrote:
and now you think it's ok to add a drug effect that's not considered in her points value?

Yep.

The FAQ explicitly tells us that Lelith uses drugs. It goes so far as to tell us that there is no such thing as a wych that does not use drugs.

1. Not giving Lelith a drug of some sort: Explicitly illegal, and forbidden by GW documentation.
2. Giving Lelith a drug: Required, but undefined how she gets it when she does not have a retinue.

Blood Angel, if you use INAT you're picking and choosing RAW.

*EDIT* Out of curiosity, I'll go make a YMDC thread though.

That was honestly just a little bit of ribbing..

By me agreeing to use the INAT I am not picking and choosing my RAW, I am choosing to try and stream line an acceptable play-set that allows me to continue to travel all around the country and play 40k.

I don't agree with all of the rulings or rules changes there but at least I've got something to refer to when my opponent starts making some very creative interpretations.

The question about Lelith does not ask 'does she get drugs' it asks 'does she get the same drugs as her RETINUE' (since she does not have combat drugs in her own profile) and the answer to that question is yes... instead of looking for the direct answer you are attempting to exploit the hyperbole.

But with that said - I do consider that somewhat of an honest mistake in this case. But now that it's been 'outed' the only real thing to do is say 'oops, my bad.'

Well, the honest thing to do is to find out what folks think about it....WITH A POLL!!!!!

blood angel wrote:
The question about Lelith does not ask 'does she get drugs' it asks 'does she get the same drugs as her RETINUE

You're right; the question isn't "does she get drugs." We are supposed to assume that she does get drugs. There's no wych in the universe that doesn't have them. How she gets them is the question!

I posted a poll; if it hasn't been clear in my other YMDC issues, I'm a very "run with crowd" kind of guy. RAW, Dark Eldar Reaver Jetbikes are STR5, T5. I don't play that way either.

Spellbound wrote:You can't pivot a vehicle on the spot to get extra distance. The MAXIMUM the vehicle can move is its max movement. Meaning sure you can pivot to get around terrain, fit through narrow gaps, etc and pivoting doesn't COST you movement, but if any part of your vehicle ends up further away from your max distance than where you started [STARTED, as in pre-pivoting] then you're moving too far.

In a nutshell, measure 12" from your hull before touching the model at all. Now pivot all you want, but you'll never get further than that measurement.

This discussion is going on here. Spoiler: looks like the majority of respondents disagree with you (although I, personally, prefer your stance).

You really can't just quote the hyperbole again after I just referenced you trying to hide behind it.

It also states that she gets the benefits of her retiunes drugs or she would be the only witch in the universe not to do drugs - not that there can't be a witch in the universe who doesn't do drugs.

See wut i did therr?

You are trying to cherry pick rules - bad sportsmanship. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on this issue but you are pretty much taking that privilege away.

blood angel wrote:

It also states that she gets the benefits of her retiunes drugs or she would be the only witch in the universe not to do drugs - not that there can't be a witch in the universe who doesn't do drugs.

Maybe I'm slow-witted, but I see an A=B here.

If every wych in the universe does drugs, then there cannot be a wych in the universe who doesn't do drugs. Am I missing something?

Not to be petty, but it does say PROBABLY the only Wych... blah blah blah.

Your seeing the phrase "every wyche DOES drugs" and getting "every wyches HAS drugs". That is incorrect. I often roll dice, and drink coffee, but I don't always carry dice and coffee everywhere I go.

Being intentionally obtuse does not make you slow witted. It just makes you a bad sport.

Do you really want to be a bad sport?

Wych Dracites and Archites do not have drugs either...so would they gain drug effects by joining a squad? No way, they have to buy a drug dispenser, just like Lilly should have, but she is an idiot and relies on a shot from her closest female companions, ie her retinue, for her drugs. if she forgets her retinue at home too...well she doesn't have drugs in her profile...so....

The Cheerleaders on Drugs discussion is better handled here, in the thread Dash set up in YMDC.

Let's all take a deep breath and have a drink.

Agreed - the drug discussion belongs elsewhere, and there is good commenting going on in that poll.

As a secondary note, I wish the events I attended had a bar like that. =p

*EDIT* The Slaughter in Space had a cash bar in the corner and some folks got beer, but I seriously have an issue with coming to terms with the idea that three shots into a bottle, I could have bought a whole bottle.

Have you ever been to Warhammer World in Nottingham, Dash? There's a bar attached to the huge gaming hall called "Bugman's Bar", and it was excellent. Good surroundings, Warhammer stuff all over the walls, plenty of drink choice and then the option to wander next door with your pint and eradicate your mates armies from the face of the earth.

Pretty ideal, actually.

Dashofpepper wrote:*EDIT* The Slaughter in Space had a cash bar in the corner and some folks got beer, but I seriously have an issue with coming to terms with the idea that three shots into a bottle, I could have bought a whole bottle.

Typically, part of the negotiation that goes into renting convention space where the hall provides catering is that no outside food/beverages are brought in. Basically, the hall gives you a better rate on the package, in exchange for a monopoly on F&B sales. Because I like going to events in nice venues, I abide by those restrictions, even though $6 Heineken is a crime against humanity. (Same deal at Adepticon, and pretty much the same prices.)

Last year, the Slaughter was held at a community hall, with no integrated catering. As such, F&B were provided by (I believe) the significant others of the guys running the event. It was lovely - food was the stuff from the Costco freezer section (Angus cheeseburger - $2), and beer was cheap (Newcastle - $3). Plus, they brought it to your table when it was ready. And they smiled about it!

Janthkin wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:*EDIT* The Slaughter in Space had a cash bar in the corner and some folks got beer, but I seriously have an issue with coming to terms with the idea that three shots into a bottle, I could have bought a whole bottle.

Typically, part of the negotiation that goes into renting convention space where the hall provides catering is that no outside food/beverages are brought in. Basically, the hall gives you a better rate on the package, in exchange for a monopoly on F&B sales. Because I like going to events in nice venues, I abide by those restrictions, even though $6 Heineken is a crime against humanity. (Same deal at Adepticon, and pretty much the same prices.)

Last year, the Slaughter was held at a community hall, with no integrated catering. As such, F&B were provided by (I believe) the significant others of the guys running the event. It was lovely - food was the stuff from the Costco freezer section (Angus cheeseburger - $2), and beer was cheap (Newcastle - $3). Plus, they brought it to your table when it was ready. And they smiled about it!

That would have been freakin' awesome. I bet my wife would have helped; she loves oohing and aahing over armies. Seems like most places default to "nothing provided" which is fine with me; I just also default to having a 5th of Captain in my bag.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
and now you think it's ok to add a drug effect that's not considered in her points value?

Yep.

The FAQ explicitly tells us that Lelith uses drugs. It goes so far as to tell us that there is no such thing as a wych that does not use drugs.

1. Not giving Lelith a drug of some sort: Explicitly illegal, and forbidden by GW documentation.
2. Giving Lelith a drug: Required, but undefined how she gets it when she does not have a retinue.

Blood Angel, if you use INAT you're picking and choosing RAW.

*EDIT* Out of curiosity, I'll go make a YMDC thread though.

Wow this is a HUGE reach.

The FAQ specifically and only addresses the issue of Lelith in a retinue. The are absolutely inapplicable to any other case. There is absolutely NO requirement in rules or FAQ that Lelith has to have a combat drug effect at all times; that is merely an extrapolation on your part. If there were a requirement for her to have the drug effect, there would be some mechanism for her to obtain it.

Oh, there is a mechanism: She takes a retinue, selects the effect, and she gets to share it.

That's the only way she gets the drug effect.