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Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




SE Michigan

The way I see the whole situation is that both sides are absolutely crazy.....but I do understand why Israel does what it does, very few countries are ever faced with the complete annihilation of their entire cultural Identity recently....well even from their founding as a nation(I know Hitler and Stalin tried to and succeed in doing it)
Also another way to look at it is if the Canadians were firing missiles into Detroit....I think the USA would respond
or if France fired missiles into Britian....
hey buts that's just my take on the matter

we could always just blame the Brits for giving the Israelis the land.....

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(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Huffy wrote:The way I see the whole situation is that both sides are absolutely crazy.....but I do understand why Israel does what it does, very few countries are ever faced with the complete annihilation of their entire cultural Identity recently....well even from their founding as a nation(I know Hitler and Stalin tried to and succeed in doing it)
Also another way to look at it is if the Canadians were firing missiles into Detroit....I think the USA would respond
or if France fired missiles into Britian....
hey buts that's just my take on the matter

we could always just blame the Brits for giving the Israelis the land.....


What are you on about? Was the aid ship shooting missiles at Israel? If missiles were being fired at detroit from occupied and blockaded canada the situations would be similar, but lets be frank here. They aren't. Israel hasn't been under threat of annihilation since the seven day war and it could easily bloody the nose of most of its neighbors militarily (as it did). Also, how did Hitler and Stalin try to destroy Israel? It post dates Hilter.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
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SE Michigan

It was the Six Day War
First off....you forgot the Yom Kippur War, and second I meant that nations threatened by hitler and stalin faced cultural extermination on the same level the Israel faced...sorry if I was unclear
Well the aid ships tried to RUN a blockade, what do you expect.....the US coast guard will stop some ships from mexico trying to get into New York by forcibly stopping their ships
but hey I still say just blame the Brits for giving the Israelis the land.....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/03 01:45:53


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United States

Huffy wrote:It was the Six Day War
First off....you forgot the Yom Kippur War,


Israel was not faced with annihilation during the Yom Kippur War, both the Syrian and the Egyptians advertised the intent for discreet, territorial gains. Egypt went so far as to fortify their incursion across the Suez, though Syria never got the chance to do so.

Huffy wrote:
Well the aid ships tried to RUN a blockade, what do you expect.....the US coast guard will stop some ships from mexico trying to get into New York by forcibly stopping their ships
but hey I still say just blame the Brits for giving the Israelis the land.....


The ships didn't try to run the blockade, they never even got there.

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SE Michigan

dogma wrote:
Huffy wrote:It was the Six Day War
First off....you forgot the Yom Kippur War,


Israel was not faced with annihilation during the Yom Kippur War, both the Syrian and the Egyptians advertised the intent for discreet, territorial gains. Egypt went so far as to fortify their incursion across the Suez, though Syria never got the chance to do so.

Huffy wrote:
Well the aid ships tried to RUN a blockade, what do you expect.....the US coast guard will stop some ships from mexico trying to get into New York by forcibly stopping their ships
but hey I still say just blame the Brits for giving the Israelis the land.....


The ships didn't try to run the blockade, they never even got there.


Okay I'll give you that
but they intended to run the blockade and that just stupid.....

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United States

It is also stupid to forcibly board a ship in international waters.

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About to eat your Avatar...

dogma wrote:The ships didn't try to run the blockade, they never even got there.


We all know how fast transport ships can go. Jet engines and everything, they were seconds from running the blockade!




Huffy wrote:Okay I'll give you that
but they intended to run the blockade and that just stupid.....


Intended to when they actually got there... hours from where they were boarded. Many hours... and when they got there, the blockade could be considered illegal in itself.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/06/03 02:15:35



 
   
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Diligently behind a rifle...

Israel isn't a a signer of the UNCLOS Treaty so they can kind of do what they want with regards to blockades. It also depends on how far they decided what their territorial waters are and what they are recognized as by other countries.

Attempting to break a blockade is actually a reason for a ship that is part of the blockade to board and search it. International waters or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea

This was no Peaceful ship either, the people on board were not mere demonstrators.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBmjtJ0r93s


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United States

Stormrider wrote:Israel isn't a a signer of the UNCLOS Treaty so they can kind of do what they want with regards to blockades. It also depends on how far they decided what their territorial waters are and what they are recognized as by other countries.

Attempting to break a blockade is actually a reason for a ship that is part of the blockade to board and search it. International waters or not.



That's not strictly true. While intent to break a blockade is sufficient cause for a boarding to be considered legal, it is not legal to establish a blockade in non-contiguous waters. The flotilla was intercepted 75 miles from the shore, which is 51 miles outside the contiguous zone as defined by the San Remo manual. Seeing as the San Remo manual is a derivation of customary law, it applies by default, there is no need for signature or ratification by the Israeli state.

That said, the protections of boarding apply on a global level once a destination can be established as being within a security cordon. Obviously the further away the ship is when intercepted the more difficult it becomes to prove a destination.

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dogma wrote:
Stormrider wrote:Israel isn't a a signer of the UNCLOS Treaty so they can kind of do what they want with regards to blockades. It also depends on how far they decided what their territorial waters are and what they are recognized as by other countries.

Attempting to break a blockade is actually a reason for a ship that is part of the blockade to board and search it. International waters or not.



That's not strictly true. While intent to break a blockade is sufficient cause for a boarding to be considered legal, it is not legal to establish a blockade in non-contiguous waters. The flotilla was intercepted 75 miles from the shore, which is 51 miles outside the contiguous zone as defined by the San Remo manual. Seeing as the San Remo manual is a derivation of customary law, it applies by default, there is no need for signature or ratification by the Israeli state.

That said, the protections of boarding apply on a global level once a destination can be established as being within a security cordon. Obviously the further away the ship is when intercepted the more difficult it becomes to prove a destination.


Sure, I would agree with that. Israel jumped the gun on this one.

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Stormrider wrote:
This was no Peaceful ship either, the people on board were not mere demonstrators.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBmjtJ0r93s



Yes they were, that is what demonstrators do. Fear and anger bring about such responces, honest soldiery are taught to take this without reacting badly in turn. Look how Basra was handled relatively small number of soldiers can stem an angry crowd without resorting to shooting. It takes special training to not react with firepowerwhen put under this sort of pressure. Trained soldiers can and should restrain from opening fire.

The Israelis have the training, but not the mentality opened fire and killed and wounded so many because they had a total contempt for those they were facing. They are by their own admission willing to shoot to kill if stones were thrown at them in the occupied territories.

Stormrider wrote:
Israel isn't a a signer of the UNCLOS Treaty so they can kind of do what they want with regards to blockades.


This law applies whether a nation is a signatory of the UNCLOS or not. It also irrelevant because Turkey is a signatory and the ships were Turkish registered, as soon as you board them by international law Turkish law takes precedence.
These are lame excuses to try asnsd patch an unforgivable act of agression, Israel could at least have waited until the flotilla had violated their own borders, that would at least have been legal. But again this is a matter of contempt for any person otyher than their own characteristic of Israeli policy and attitudes.

Stormrider wrote:
It also depends on how far they decided what their territorial waters are and what they are recognized as by other countries.


No nation can claim more than 12 miles.

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It should be noted: If the demonstrator guys on the boat were prepared for a fight (As some people say), they were definitely not prepared to win or make any real mark. Otherwise, they would have brought guns.

 
   
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Diligently behind a rifle...

Orlanth wrote:
Stormrider wrote:
This was no Peaceful ship either, the people on board were not mere demonstrators.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBmjtJ0r93s



Yes they were, that is what demonstrators do. Fear and anger bring about such responces, honest soldiery are taught to take this without reacting badly in turn. Look how Basra was handled relatively small number of soldiers can stem an angry crowd without resorting to shooting. It takes special training to not react with firepowerwhen put under this sort of pressure. Trained soldiers can and should restrain from opening fire.

The Israelis have the training, but not the mentality opened fire and killed and wounded so many because they had a total contempt for those they were facing. They are by their own admission willing to shoot to kill if stones were thrown at them in the occupied territories.

Stormrider wrote:
Israel isn't a a signer of the UNCLOS Treaty so they can kind of do what they want with regards to blockades.


This law applies whether a nation is a signatory of the UNCLOS or not. It also irrelevant because Turkey is a signatory and the ships were Turkish registered, as soon as you board them by international law Turkish law takes precedence.
These are lame excuses to try asnsd patch an unforgivable act of agression, Israel could at least have waited until the flotilla had violated their own borders, that would at least have been legal. But again this is a matter of contempt for any person otyher than their own characteristic of Israeli policy and attitudes.

Stormrider wrote:
It also depends on how far they decided what their territorial waters are and what they are recognized as by other countries.


No nation can claim more than 12 miles.


Really? Beating soldiers with conduit and shooting them with marbles isn't peaceful. Considering they went with paintball guns with pepper projectiles meant they really were trying to go peacefully, then you see in the thermal camera that the Soldiers were swarmed as they came aboard, and savagely beaten, I call BS on the peace affair. I am really starting to get the idea that this was a set up.

I wouldn't take getting beaten very long before I drew my sidearm to defend my life.




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(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Stormrider wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
Stormrider wrote:
This was no Peaceful ship either, the people on board were not mere demonstrators.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBmjtJ0r93s



Yes they were, that is what demonstrators do. Fear and anger bring about such responces, honest soldiery are taught to take this without reacting badly in turn. Look how Basra was handled relatively small number of soldiers can stem an angry crowd without resorting to shooting. It takes special training to not react with firepowerwhen put under this sort of pressure. Trained soldiers can and should restrain from opening fire.

The Israelis have the training, but not the mentality opened fire and killed and wounded so many because they had a total contempt for those they were facing. They are by their own admission willing to shoot to kill if stones were thrown at them in the occupied territories.

Stormrider wrote:
Israel isn't a a signer of the UNCLOS Treaty so they can kind of do what they want with regards to blockades.


This law applies whether a nation is a signatory of the UNCLOS or not. It also irrelevant because Turkey is a signatory and the ships were Turkish registered, as soon as you board them by international law Turkish law takes precedence.
These are lame excuses to try asnsd patch an unforgivable act of agression, Israel could at least have waited until the flotilla had violated their own borders, that would at least have been legal. But again this is a matter of contempt for any person otyher than their own characteristic of Israeli policy and attitudes.

Stormrider wrote:
It also depends on how far they decided what their territorial waters are and what they are recognized as by other countries.


No nation can claim more than 12 miles.


Really? Beating soldiers with conduit and shooting them with marbles isn't peaceful. Considering they went with paintball guns with pepper projectiles meant they really were trying to go peacefully, then you see in the thermal camera that the Soldiers were swarmed as they came aboard, and savagely beaten, I call BS on the peace affair. I am really starting to get the idea that this was a set up.

I wouldn't take getting beaten very long before I drew my sidearm to defend my life.





When would you have questioned your commander about being dropped during the night onto a ship full of angry turkish civilians who can see you and are in international waters?

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
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Diligently behind a rifle...

ShumaGorath wrote:
Stormrider wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
Stormrider wrote:
This was no Peaceful ship either, the people on board were not mere demonstrators.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBmjtJ0r93s



Yes they were, that is what demonstrators do. Fear and anger bring about such responces, honest soldiery are taught to take this without reacting badly in turn. Look how Basra was handled relatively small number of soldiers can stem an angry crowd without resorting to shooting. It takes special training to not react with firepowerwhen put under this sort of pressure. Trained soldiers can and should restrain from opening fire.

The Israelis have the training, but not the mentality opened fire and killed and wounded so many because they had a total contempt for those they were facing. They are by their own admission willing to shoot to kill if stones were thrown at them in the occupied territories.

Stormrider wrote:
Israel isn't a a signer of the UNCLOS Treaty so they can kind of do what they want with regards to blockades.


This law applies whether a nation is a signatory of the UNCLOS or not. It also irrelevant because Turkey is a signatory and the ships were Turkish registered, as soon as you board them by international law Turkish law takes precedence.
These are lame excuses to try asnsd patch an unforgivable act of agression, Israel could at least have waited until the flotilla had violated their own borders, that would at least have been legal. But again this is a matter of contempt for any person otyher than their own characteristic of Israeli policy and attitudes.

Stormrider wrote:
It also depends on how far they decided what their territorial waters are and what they are recognized as by other countries.


No nation can claim more than 12 miles.


Really? Beating soldiers with conduit and shooting them with marbles isn't peaceful. Considering they went with paintball guns with pepper projectiles meant they really were trying to go peacefully, then you see in the thermal camera that the Soldiers were swarmed as they came aboard, and savagely beaten, I call BS on the peace affair. I am really starting to get the idea that this was a set up.

I wouldn't take getting beaten very long before I drew my sidearm to defend my life.





When would you have questioned your commander about being dropped during the night onto a ship full of angry turkish civilians who can see you and are in international waters?


Questioning a commander's orders is not part of a soldier's protocol. Right or wrong, it's a court-martial worthy offense to disobey an order.

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About to eat your Avatar...

Stormrider wrote:Really? Beating soldiers with conduit and shooting them with marbles isn't peaceful. Considering they went with paintball guns with pepper projectiles meant they really were trying to go peacefully, then you see in the thermal camera that the Soldiers were swarmed as they came aboard, and savagely beaten, I call BS on the peace affair. I am really starting to get the idea that this was a set up.

I wouldn't take getting beaten very long before I drew my sidearm to defend my life.


Your being silly.

Orlanth's point was that they WERE demonstrators, as well as being an aid-flotilla. Considering marbles were used... and not bullets, I honestly don't follow your what your trying to say. I think you are calling the demonstrators non-peaceful, then referring to slingshots as weapons of mass destruction... or something along those lines. I don't recall Isreal being required to fastrope commandos onto the vessel. They took action, and the demonstrators reacted... IMO, appropriately.

Honestly though, why is so obviously okay for Israel to commit such acts? Would it be okay if the flotilla was boarded right after leaving European waters? The second they enter international waters, BOARDED. BAM. What is the difference here? Seriously.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/06/03 04:31:38



 
   
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Wrexasaur wrote:
Stormrider wrote:Really? Beating soldiers with conduit and shooting them with marbles isn't peaceful. Considering they went with paintball guns with pepper projectiles meant they really were trying to go peacefully, then you see in the thermal camera that the Soldiers were swarmed as they came aboard, and savagely beaten, I call BS on the peace affair. I am really starting to get the idea that this was a set up.

I wouldn't take getting beaten very long before I drew my sidearm to defend my life.


Your being silly.

Orlanth's point was that they WERE demonstrators, as well as being an aid-flotilla. Considering marbles were used... and not bullets, I honestly don't follow your what your trying to say. I think you are calling the demonstrators non-peaceful, then referring to slingshots as weapons of mass destruction... or something along those lines.


I never said anything about WMD, and a slingshot is a dangerous weapon at short range. You hit someone in the head, you can kill them. They did find some PNV's on board, were those for relief aid of Gaza?

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About to eat your Avatar...

Stormrider wrote:I never said anything about WMD, and a slingshot is a dangerous weapon at short range. You hit someone in the head, you can kill them. They did find some PNV's on board, were those for relief aid of Gaza?


Wait... Pre-natal vitamins? What does PNV stand for? ABCD...EFG

I dunno man, I can't really take you that seriously. It is also dangerous to drop commandos directly into an angry mob of demonstrators.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/03 04:37:27



 
   
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What should have been the response after they refused alternate ports and Isreal transporting the humanitarian supplies to Gaza. Run the blockade at your own peril.

Your side is always the "will of the people" the other side is always fundamentalist, extremist, hatemongers, racists, anti- semitic nazies with questionable education and more questionable hygiene. American politics 101.
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Diligently behind a rifle...

Wrexasaur wrote:
Stormrider wrote:I never said anything about WMD, and a slingshot is a dangerous weapon at short range. You hit someone in the head, you can kill them. They did find some PNV's on board, were those for relief aid of Gaza?


Wait... Pre-natal vitamins? What does PNV stand for? ABCD...EFG

I dunno man, I can't really take you that seriously. It is also dangerous to drop commandos directly into an angry mob of demonstrators.


Personal Night Vision systems (i.e. Night Vision for soldiers).

Fine don't take me seriously, I really don't care either way.

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United States

Merchant ships often carry night vision systems, for obvious reasons.

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generalgrog wrote:One of the posters in the other thread made some statements about positive propaganda regarding Israel and this has lead to a "favored" status towards Israel. One of the things I didn't see mentioned was the relgious connection that many people in America feel towards Israel.


Funnily enough there’s actually a decently sized Christian population in Palestine, about 10%.

We all are aware of the political connection, which dates back to the cold war, and now to the modern war on terror. That's the obvious stuff IMO. But many people that don't go to Church or understand the history behind the Jewish people and the tragedy that befell that group of people across the last 2500 years may not understand why Israel has a "special" place in the heart of Church going Americans.


The narrative is very powerful, and I think it explains most of the popular support for Israel. Once Israel has that popular support, it becomes much easier for lobby groups to influence US government decisions.

Of course, while the narrative is true and very powerful, it doesn’t leads to a serious misunderstanding of the situation going on in Palestine right now. Right now the people there trapped in ghettoes, prevented from building industry or sustaining themselves, suffering frequent abuse from soldiers.

I personally believe that Israel is favored by the majority of Americans because of their religious beliefs. It's not hard to understand how a group of people can pickup a Bible and see how God favored the Jews as His chosen people, and feel a kinship to them, even though Christians believe that these same Jews rejected their own God by rejecting the Messiah.(speaking in regards to non Messianic Jews).


This probably plays a part. It’s a shame, really, I’d have thought a reading of the bible would encourage people to be kind to the poor and the downtrodden, which the Palestinians obviously are.

And many believe that Israel must rebuild the Temple before the 2nd coming of the Messiah, so it is in their interest that Israel succeeds.


Do you think this really plays a big part in US belief towards Israel? The more I think about it the more it seems like an easy way to discredit US support for Israel. Not that I think much of US support for Israel, but that’s always seemed a bit much to me.



Frazzled wrote:Israel was histoprically the only democracy in the region. Iraq is now the second.


You forgot Turkey and Lebanon. An argument could also be made for Jordan (the king holds genuine power so it isn’t a complete democracy, but even if he was elected everyone would totally vote for the king and queen anyway. Have you seen the queen? Goddamn.)

It’s also a very strange value to suddenly find when you look Iran, and what the US did when their democracy voted for a government they didn’t like.



Albatross wrote:It might be interesting to ask a Palestinian what they think of Israeli 'democracy'.

I mean, they elected Hamas - everyone else saying 'Wrong! choose again' doesn't strike me as terribly democratic.


Good point. Ignoring democracy when it’s used to pick leader the US doesn’t like is fairly traditional, though.

Also, Iran has had democratically elected leaders.


Most power rests with the clerics, so it couldn’t really be considered a democracy. This is probably a good thing though, considering the President.

Of course, Iran was a democracy. Then they voted for a leftie government, so the US organised a coup to put the Shah into power. Yay for democracies the US approves of!



Frazzled wrote:They are the only ethnic group specifically targeted for gas chambers.


What about the Romani and the Poles?



Gitzbitah wrote:I can see that. They were certainly the target of the most efficient genocide.


It’s an interesting thing, this idea that the holocaust was targeted exclusively at the Jews. It’s quite wrong.



Karon wrote:Israel is one of the only countries that is democratic, and it has nuclear weapons. If israel was attacked, they very well could nuke the country attacking them. That is the main reason.


Except the idea of Israel facing any kind of existential threat has been completely ridiculous since the late 70s. We really need to stop pretending otherwise.



isthatmycow wrote:Why did the Gazans Elect Hamas? Well, Years of blockade, people are hungry, there is little electricity, childmalnutrtion, simply put: the Gazans are sick, they are tired. they want their suffering to end. My guess is, Hamas promised them that. And they elected the party that tey hoped would save them. They're desperate.


Well, there’s also the issue of the former government being incredibly corrupt. Much of the support for Hamas came from revelations about PLO corruption in the lead up to the election.



mattyrm wrote:To me the Israelis seem to me to make the most concessions of the two sides, so im on their team.


Then you should try reading. At this point the negotiations basically consist of getting Israel to recognise the agreements they made in the 1970s.

The Israelis actually attempt to somehow follow the rules of law, loosely ill admit, but they do. They have a proper democracy, they have gay rights. I just dont see how they look like they are "super evil" in the face of such overwhelming aggression.


Because they’re settling someone else’s land. Because the blockade is dedicated to preventing Palestine developing a working economy. Because they’re killing a thousand odd Palestinians a year, and tens of thousands more are dying due to poor health services.



Huffy wrote:The way I see the whole situation is that both sides are absolutely crazy.....but I do understand why Israel does what it does, very few countries are ever faced with the complete annihilation of their entire cultural Identity recently....well even from their founding as a nation(I know Hitler and Stalin tried to and succeed in doing it)


Yeah, this idea really needs to die. It is not possible to make a sensible comment on modern political issues when your reading on the subject stopped in the 1970s.

Israel is not under thread of annihilation. No country in the region is capable of it, economically, politically, or militarily.

Also another way to look at it is if the Canadians were firing missiles into Detroit....I think the USA would respond


What if the US kept a constant quarantine on Detroit, and strictly controlled the development of any industry in Detroit. The list of banned goods included canned food, seeds and tractors.

What would you expect Detroit to do in response?



Stormrider wrote:Personal Night Vision systems (i.e. Night Vision for soldiers).

Fine don't take me seriously, I really don't care either way.


I think if I was to arm myself for combat, I’d probably take a gun before night vision goggles and slingshots.

You can argue that given the dangerous situation the soldiers found themselves in they were right to shoot. I’d agree. But arguing that the people on the boat were armed for conflict is very silly. If they were armed for conflict they would have been capable of defeating soldiers they outnumbered ten to one rappelling onto the deck.

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Gathering the Informations.

And that wouldn't serve for good publicity for them at all, now would it?

The Palestinians and the organizations associated with the Palestinian Liberation movements tend towards being very media savvy. Even the slightest hint of them assaulting soldiers with deadly force would have been a big sympathy point in the Israelis' favor.
   
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About to eat your Avatar...

Not bringing cases of weapons on an aid-flotilla, with goals of demonstrating against the blockade on Gaza, isn't 'media saavy'; it's freaking obvious.

I won't say that you are attempting to follow a warped narrative, but it could be perceived that way.


 
   
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Kanluwen wrote:And that wouldn't serve for good publicity for them at all, now would it?

The Palestinians and the organizations associated with the Palestinian Liberation movements tend towards being very media savvy. Even the slightest hint of them assaulting soldiers with deadly force would have been a big sympathy point in the Israelis' favor.


You honestly think the Palestinian organisations are as media savvy as their Israeli equivalents? Seriously?


And you think there was a plan consisting of floating towards the blockade, so the Israelis would rappel onto the boats while still in international waters, hoping the Israelis would deploy too few troops so that they could only keep order through lethal force?

I agree this was largely a media stunt. Look at the Israeli blockade stopping us from getting supplies into Palestine. Look at the types of things that are banned, like live animals. Look at how Israel is forcing the Palestinian people to live.

Then an Israeli officer made a poor call, initiated a silly operation, and people are dead. That doesn't reflect on Israel - you can officers making bad mistakes without condemning a whole country. But the initial point should not be lost - the blockade at present is horrible, and has little to do with stopping terrorism.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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Gathering the Informations.

Italy and Cyprus both flat-out from the get-go stated that they wanted no part of this due to "it being an intentionally antagonistic media stunt".

The Israelis, for their part, also announced their intentions of doing nothing but using non-lethal measures and sending the protesters packing if they cooperated with the authorities, or prison time if they didn't.
   
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Somewhere in south-central England.

Stormrider wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
Stormrider wrote:
This was no Peaceful ship either, the people on board were not mere demonstrators.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBmjtJ0r93s



Yes they were, that is what demonstrators do. Fear and anger bring about such responces, honest soldiery are taught to take this without reacting badly in turn. Look how Basra was handled relatively small number of soldiers can stem an angry crowd without resorting to shooting. It takes special training to not react with firepowerwhen put under this sort of pressure. Trained soldiers can and should restrain from opening fire.

The Israelis have the training, but not the mentality opened fire and killed and wounded so many because they had a total contempt for those they were facing. They are by their own admission willing to shoot to kill if stones were thrown at them in the occupied territories.

Stormrider wrote:
Israel isn't a a signer of the UNCLOS Treaty so they can kind of do what they want with regards to blockades.


This law applies whether a nation is a signatory of the UNCLOS or not. It also irrelevant because Turkey is a signatory and the ships were Turkish registered, as soon as you board them by international law Turkish law takes precedence.
These are lame excuses to try asnsd patch an unforgivable act of agression, Israel could at least have waited until the flotilla had violated their own borders, that would at least have been legal. But again this is a matter of contempt for any person otyher than their own characteristic of Israeli policy and attitudes.

Stormrider wrote:
It also depends on how far they decided what their territorial waters are and what they are recognized as by other countries.


No nation can claim more than 12 miles.


Really? Beating soldiers with conduit and shooting them with marbles isn't peaceful. Considering they went with paintball guns with pepper projectiles meant they really were trying to go peacefully, then you see in the thermal camera that the Soldiers were swarmed as they came aboard, and savagely beaten, I call BS on the peace affair. I am really starting to get the idea that this was a set up.

I wouldn't take getting beaten very long before I drew my sidearm to defend my life.





You are such a fan of gun carrying yet when a ship out at sea is illegally boarded by armed soldiers -- pirates in effect -- the crew and passengers defending themselves without guns are violent criminals?

By the same reasoning, if someone comes into your house at night and you hit them, them can with justice shoot you.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
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Kanluwen wrote:Italy and Cyprus both flat-out from the get-go stated that they wanted no part of this due to "it being an intentionally antagonistic media stunt".

The Israelis, for their part, also announced their intentions of doing nothing but using non-lethal measures and sending the protesters packing if they cooperated with the authorities, or prison time if they didn't.


Which is fine. As time has shown again and again, peaceful intentions don’t mean much when the plan is stupid. The result is some dead people.

Whatever, hundreds more will die in the next few months as a result of the blockade, and it won’t make the media. Do you agree with the current Israeli blockade restriction on fishing rods and nets? What about canned goods? Live animals? Fruit juice? Newspapers?

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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About to eat your Avatar...

sebster wrote:Do you agree with the current Israeli blockade restriction on fishing rods and nets?


The ability to breed mutant fish, that are capable of acting as torpedoes.

What about canned goods?


Too much salt is bad for you.

Live animals?


Fertilizer, I won't say any more, because it would make me a terrorist.

Fruit juice?


Muslims can't drink alcohol, you silly bugger! But yeah... it is to stop them from drinking moonshine.

Newspapers?


Dude... paper air-plane attacks... dropping mustard gas, and raping our villages for good measure.

I considered you a gentleman and a scholar... until now, sebster!


 
   
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Canned goods, live animals, and fruit juice are all things that have to be inspected by Customs Agencies anyways.

That point is kinda moot, since any aid agency worth the name wouldn't be providing ridiculous things like live animals to begin with.

Fishing rods and nets make a kind of sense since a common tactic of the Viet Cong was to send boats packed with explosives below decks disguised as fishing trawlers out into the midst of crowded waterways and detonate them when they needed to sow as much confusion as possible at any given moment to allow arms shipments or troop movements to get through unchallenged.
   
 
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