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OK.. so since LegoBurner said we can start a new topic and the others were locked before I had a chance to say anything. I thought I would start a new thread with a different angle.

One of the posters in the other thread made some statements about positive propaganda regarding Israel and this has lead to a "favored" status towards Israel. One of the things I didn't see mentioned was the relgious connection that many people in America feel towards Israel. We all are aware of the political connection, which dates back to the cold war, and now to the modern war on terror. That's the obvious stuff IMO. But many people that don't go to Church or understand the history behind the Jewish people and the tragedy that befell that group of people across the last 2500 years may not understand why Israel has a "special" place in the heart of Church going Americans.

I personally believe that Israel is favored by the majority of Americans because of their religious beliefs. It's not hard to understand how a group of people can pickup a Bible and see how God favored the Jews as His chosen people, and feel a kinship to them, even though Christians believe that these same Jews rejected their own God by rejecting the Messiah.(speaking in regards to non Messianic Jews).

Please keep in mind I'm speaking in terms of beliefs here, and not in terms of a moral judgment by me.

So not wanting to ramble on too long, I think it's important to remember that in the eyes of a lot of church going Americans Israel can almsot do no wrong, since they see the "Hand of God" whether right or wrong in what Israel does.

And many believe that Israel must rebuild the Temple before the 2nd coming of the Messiah, so it is in their interest that Israel succeeds.

GG

Israel was histoprically the only democracy in the region. Iraq is now the second.

generalgrog wrote: But many people that don't go to Church or understand the history behind the Jewish people and the tragedy that befell that group of people across the last 2500 years may not understand why Israel has a "special" place in the heart of Church going Americans.

Sadly, this is a common belief in America. Our schools always teach us about the horrors of the Holocaust, and how terrible it was for the Jews. That wouldn't be a bad thing in and of itself, but we don't hear anything about Stalin's purges, the genocide of the Hutus and the Tutsis, or any other oppressed people. We've educated ourselves to lack any kind of perspective even in regards to recent events. I'm no history major but I am well aware that the Jewish people wiped out many tribes and nations themselves. The Romans all but obliterated the Celts, and the Catholics destroyed almost all traces of native religions of Europe. Every culture in history has its black moments, and has suffered them in return. Even the young USA all but wiped out the Native Americans, then fought a bloody civil war.

I am at a loss to explain why the Jewish people are still afforded favored status for being the targets of genocide. They are not the only people, culture, or religious group to suffer from this over the ages, nor are they the most recent.

Until potential changes are made, this thread is ok if everyone abides by Dakka Rule #1 and doesn't fall into attacks on a particular country.

As a reminder, ranting diatribes against a country and its people, with the obvious exception of the dark realm that is Leichtenstein, generally violate this rules.

Not sure what your school taught, but we had entire sections about African civil wars, Stalin's purges, etc in high school World History here in NC.

It might be interesting to ask a Palestinian what they think of Israeli 'democracy'.

I mean, they elected Hamas - everyone else saying 'Wrong! choose again' doesn't strike me as terribly democratic.

Also, Iran has had democratically elected leaders.

Was it of the same quantity as Holocaust instruction? Every year we had at least a month dedicated to it in FL. I'm glad to hear that other states kept it in better perspective.

Gitzbitah wrote:

generalgrog wrote: But many people that don't go to Church or understand the history behind the Jewish people and the tragedy that befell that group of people across the last 2500 years may not understand why Israel has a "special" place in the heart of Church going Americans.

Sadly, this is a common belief in America. Our schools always teach us about the horrors of the Holocaust, and how terrible it was for the Jews. That wouldn't be a bad thing in and of itself, but we don't hear anything about Stalin's purges, the genocide of the Hutus and the Tutsis, or any other oppressed people. We've educated ourselves to lack any kind of perspective even in regards to recent events. I'm no history major but I am well aware that the Jewish people wiped out many tribes and nations themselves. The Romans all but obliterated the Celts, and the Catholics destroyed almost all traces of native religions of Europe. Every culture in history has its black moments, and has suffered them in return. Even the young USA all but wiped out the Native Americans, then fought a bloody civil war.

I am at a loss to explain why the Jewish people are still afforded favored status for being the targets of genocide. They are not the only people, culture, or religious group to suffer from this over the ages, nor are they the most recent.

They are the only ethnic group specifically targeted for gas chambers.
Some of those other topics are taught however, it depends upon region. I was fully versed in the Purges (not at college of course).

If we had elected Palin, the world would have decried it as the wrong choice too.

Disagreeing with the choice of elected officials does not a fascism make.

I can see that. They were certainly the target of the most efficient genocide.

Gitzbitah wrote:Was it of the same quantity as Holocaust instruction? Every year we had at least a month dedicated to it in FL. I'm glad to hear that other states kept it in better perspective.

We had a month dedicated to Mexico. In light of queso, mariachis, and fair Spanish ladies I was extremely onside with this month.

Farewell and adieu to you Fair Spanish ladies,

Gitzbitah wrote:Was it of the same quantity as Holocaust instruction? Every year we had at least a month dedicated to it in FL. I'm glad to hear that other states kept it in better perspective.

Of course it wasn't, namely due to the fact that a lot of records don't exist of the other purges.

And as for The Holocaust, it wasn't taught as just being a Jewish tragedy.

Kanluwen wrote:If we had elected Palin, the world would have decried it as the wrong choice too.

Disagreeing with the choice of elected officials does not a fascism make.

We're not really talking about a simple 'disagreement' here though, are we? We're talking assasinations and military action.

Not that I'm defending Hamas, they are terrorists and murderers.
I just don't think that it can be argued with any semblance of seriousness that Israel is a fully-functioning democracy with self-determination for all citizens.

Where were the assassinations with Hamas being elected?

Oh right, there weren't any.

Military action was stepped up, sure. But when the people who've been launching rockets at you suddenly become a "legitimate" government, you'd start stepping up military actions too.

Gitzbitah wrote:I am at a loss to explain why the Jewish people are still afforded favored status for being the targets of genocide. They are not the only people, culture, or religious group to suffer from this over the ages, nor are they the most recent.

Apart from the religious kinship, I think there is a sort of a "Big Brother Hero" syndrome as well. (Not Orwellian) A lot of people are proud of the fact that America had a part in rescuing the Jews from European anihilation, so they can identify them selves as heros or relatives of those heros.

GG

Frazzled wrote:Israel was histoprically the only democracy in the region. Iraq is now the second.

Why did that make me think of this?

sA

I'd be interested to know what the average American knows about the situation in the area though.

I get the religious kinship thing, there was something similar when the IRA was bombing Britain and Folks in the States backed them. I remember seeing a program with Louis Theroux in around 2000, where a gathering in NY to raise funds for the IRA was occuring and people he chatted to where ignoring the bombing side they where funding. Then of course 9/11 happened and they saw it up close and personal, the money dripped away.

Okay with NI that was also tied in with strides towards an actual peaceful resolution that took hold because the people had finally had enough.

Going back to my question however, I struggle to see where the sympathy comes from when you see stuff about the forced evictions upon arrival, the lands being taken and many other things that have occured there since Israel returned to prominence. Is it the same as the IRA situation, folks just ignore the bad stuff?

I personally struggle with the whole situation, as regardless of anything else I see it in a odd light. In sense of how does that happen in the first place.

Yes the Jewish people had a Historical tie to tha land, but the English have one to Britanny. Hell Spain, France and England could claim rights to the US, they wouldn't, but going on the reason Israel was created they could.

Thats where my confusion on the area comes from. Obviously you can't rewrite time and change how things occured, but I look at what has happened from both sides, and I really can't see where a peaceful resolution could come from.

Too much bad blood sadly.

Kanluwen wrote:Where were the assassinations with Hamas being elected?

Oh right, there weren't any.

Military action was stepped up, sure. But when the people who've been launching rockets at you suddenly become a "legitimate" government, you'd start stepping up military actions too.

So sending assasins to a third country, using passports from england etc, is just normal military action.

loki old fart wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Where were the assassinations with Hamas being elected?

Oh right, there weren't any.

Military action was stepped up, sure. But when the people who've been launching rockets at you suddenly become a "legitimate" government, you'd start stepping up military actions too.

So sending assasins to a third country, using passports from england etc, is just normal military action.

I would suggest it is no different to anything that Western democracies have done in the past. I'm by no means a conspiracy theorist, but you are fooling yourself if you think that state sponsored assassination doesn't occur; take the example of Alexsander Lebedev. The only difference being that Israel got caught with it's pants down in this case.

That wasn't done in response to Hamas being elected.

Frazzled wrote:Israel was histoprically the only democracy in the region. Iraq is now the second.

More accurately, except for the Suez Canal Crisis Israel has been a key US ally in the region for decades because other regional powers were British-aligned (Jordan) or were lost to Soviet alignment (Syria, Egypt).

The Shah’s Iran, once a US ally was lost to the Ayatollah. Note that Iran, Jordan and Egypt are all democracies, with deep flaws of course.

Saudi Arabia is another key regional US ally despite being completely undemocratic with a lamentable human rights record.

In short it’s nothing to do with supporting democracy. The US simply knows which side its geopolitical bread is buttered.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I don't pick on the US for that, it's the same game the British Empire played for 100s of years.

Frazzled wrote:
They are the only ethnic group specifically targeted for gas chambers.
Some of those other topics are taught however, it depends upon region. I was fully versed in the Purges (not at college of course).

I should note that's not actually true... the Roma people were also specifically targeted for the final solution, but because they are perceived negatively to this day no one talks about them. The high estimates are 1.5 million Roma dead the low at 250,000 is still a huge number

edit to correct quote string

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/06/how-free-explains-israels-flotilla-fiasco/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+WiredDangerRoom+%28Blog+-+Danger+Room%29

This was a very interesting read about the whole situation.

I fully support Israel.

They are too heavy handed and its no way to win a war, but its not my place to tell them otherwise.

I dont think they would get very far giving out candy canes though either.

The issue will never be sorted out, both sides argue with the fevour of the religiously indoctrinated and brainwash their children to hate from birth. This means there will always be war out there, i just dont see how "peace" is achieveable.

Now i just hope they dont wipe the rest of the world out when the big guns start shooting!

Frazzled wrote:

Gitzbitah wrote:

generalgrog wrote: But many people that don't go to Church or understand the history behind the Jewish people and the tragedy that befell that group of people across the last 2500 years may not understand why Israel has a "special" place in the heart of Church going Americans.

Sadly, this is a common belief in America. Our schools always teach us about the horrors of the Holocaust, and how terrible it was for the Jews. That wouldn't be a bad thing in and of itself, but we don't hear anything about Stalin's purges, the genocide of the Hutus and the Tutsis, or any other oppressed people. We've educated ourselves to lack any kind of perspective even in regards to recent events. I'm no history major but I am well aware that the Jewish people wiped out many tribes and nations themselves. The Romans all but obliterated the Celts, and the Catholics destroyed almost all traces of native religions of Europe. Every culture in history has its black moments, and has suffered them in return. Even the young USA all but wiped out the Native Americans, then fought a bloody civil war.

I am at a loss to explain why the Jewish people are still afforded favored status for being the targets of genocide. They are not the only people, culture, or religious group to suffer from this over the ages, nor are they the most recent.

They are the only ethnic group specifically targeted for gas chambers.
Some of those other topics are taught however, it depends upon region. I was fully versed in the Purges (not at college of course).

I think the Gypsies were specifically targeted as well because of their ethnicity ( as opposed to religion or politics), but not in the same numbers.

While we learned about all manner of nasty genocidal incidents, I believe that the holocaust is one of the few genocides carried out with the full economic and political might of a nation, and was highly automated. I do think that in some ways Stalin's purges were similar, and while more "egalitarian" than the holocaust, targeted jews because of their ethnicity, and less attention is paid to that because, I feel, they won the war and were our allies.

None of this has anything to do with the State of Israel. While I certainly appreciate the idea of having Israel as a strong ally in the Middle East, I do not believe we should turn a blind eye to some nasty things the state of Israel has done simply because we're allies with a cultural connection.

And many believe that Israel must rebuild the Temple before the 2nd coming of the Messiah, so it is in their interest that Israel succeeds.

I would think that would be a good reason for them NOT to succeed.

Ironhide wrote:

And many believe that Israel must rebuild the Temple before the 2nd coming of the Messiah, so it is in their interest that Israel succeeds.

I would think that would be a good reason for them NOT to succeed.

I don't think decisions on the national level are being made based on that.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:I get the religious kinship thing, there was something similar when the IRA was bombing Britain and Folks in the States backed them. I remember seeing a program with Louis Theroux in around 2000, where a gathering in NY to raise funds for the IRA was occuring and people he chatted to where ignoring the bombing side they where funding. Then of course 9/11 happened and they saw it up close and personal, the money dripped away.

"editted out sentence that doesn't apply to my response"

Going back to my question however, I struggle to see where the sympathy comes from when you see stuff about the forced evictions upon arrival, the lands being taken and many other things that have occured there since Israel returned to prominence. Is it the same as the IRA situation, folks just ignore the bad stuff?

The American kinship with the Irish goes much deeper than any psuedo religious Tie-in. It goes to a feeling of shared struggle and rooting for the oppressed underdog. The U.S. has a fairly large Irish population that that are descended from immigrants that came to these shores:

1) as indentured servants after being thrown into debtors prison due to one-side lending practices
2) after having had their land stolen by English gentry with support of the Crown
3) some came during the flight of Wild Geese
4) Some fled in order to avoid prosecution
5) During the Potato Famine(often consider a direct result of british discrimination by way of the penal laws)
6) For any number of other valid reasons from a long list

Then compound these past issues with the problem of unchecked protestant instigation and aggression throughout the majority of the 20th century and you end up with americans feeling that the Irish are the oppressed underdogs.

Many Americans connect any perceived underdog's struggle for independence as to having a corollary relation to the U.S.'s revolutionary war. As such, there is the tendency to view the "bad stuff" as just the costs of war.

I think this is likely to also be as much of a reason for U.S.'s support of Israel as the Psuedo-religious aspect.


Of course, this all ignores a Jewish dominated media working in concert with Jewish lobbyist and the ADL to suppress any american dissent concerning Israel's actions.

I'm going to be really pissed if there is any Jew-bashing here. That just proves your an inbred dumbass.

----------------

Israel is one of the only countries that is democratic, and it has nuclear weapons. If israel was attacked, they very well could nuke the country attacking them. That is the main reason.

@Karon-No Jew bashing. If the Jewish population in this country were organised enough to actually control Israels public image it would be more of a compliment.