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Kanluwen wrote:Canned goods, live animals, and fruit juice are all things that have to be inspected by Customs Agencies anyways.
My can of dole pineapple slices... IS A BOMB?! OMG! They don't ban the transport of those goods though... so, moving along.
That point is kinda moot, since any aid agency worth the name wouldn't be providing ridiculous things like live animals to begin with.
Or anything else that could make Gaza self sustaining, for that matter!
Seriously, what?
Fishing rods and nets make a kind of sense since a common tactic of the Viet Cong was to send boats packed with explosives below decks disguised as fishing trawlers out into the midst of crowded waterways and detonate them when they needed to sow as much confusion as possible at any given moment to allow arms shipments or troop movements to get through unchallenged.
Sure... unless Israel blocks tiny fishing boats from doing anything. The movement of a ship is measured in knots, which are usually well within uninspiring speeds, when considering a fishing boat. I fail to see a convincing link between the situation in nixon-era Vietnam, and the situation in Gaza. Contextually appropriate, maybe.
Kanluwen wrote:Canned goods, live animals, and fruit juice are all things that have to be inspected by Customs Agencies anyways.
That point is kinda moot, since any aid agency worth the name wouldn't be providing ridiculous things like live animals to begin with.
Fishing rods and nets make a kind of sense since a common tactic of the Viet Cong was to send boats packed with explosives below decks disguised as fishing trawlers out into the midst of crowded waterways and detonate them when they needed to sow as much confusion as possible at any given moment to allow arms shipments or troop movements to get through unchallenged.
That's nonsense. It isn't a list of goods to be inspected, it is a list of goods that are not allowed at all. You cannot get canned goods in Palestine. Frozen meat is allowed, but given the constant power outages it's never going to last. The effect of this policy is that it is impossible to keep more than few days food stockpiled.
Aid agencies provide live animals all the time to aid in economic recovery. Live animals are really very important to farming.
Banning fishing nets to stop suicide boats is very silly. This could be managed by informing vessels they are not allowed with 50 or 100m of an IDF vessel. Banning the goods needed for any and all fishing, including fishing from the shore, is a very silly way of going about this. Of course, Israel produces a surplus of fresh and frozen fish, much of which is sold to Palestine... the companies selling that food often include former generals who controlled the border with Palestine...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/03 07:38:08
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Banning fishing nets to stop suicide boats is very silly. This could be managed by informing vessels they are not allowed with 50 or 100m of an IDF vessel. Banning the goods needed for any and all fishing, including fishing from the shore, is a very silly way of going about this. Of course, Israel produces a surplus of fresh and frozen fish, much of which is sold to Palestine... the companies selling that food often include former generals who controlled the border with Palestine...
I wonder if the Earth is round... Wait...
Are you telling me that Israel favors it's business interests, over those of Palestine?
Wrexasaur wrote:I wonder if the Earth is round... Wait...
Are you telling me that Israel favors it's business interests, over those of Palestine?
Shocking.
Are you criticising Israel? That's anti-semitic!
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
sebster wrote:
Most power rests with the clerics, so it couldn’t really be considered a democracy. This is probably a good thing though, considering the President.
Most power rests with the Guardian Council, which is not necessarily made up of clerics
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote:
A country that requires a coup every decade is not a democracy. ANNNH do not pass Go do not collect $200.
Just because this irritates me: there have been 4 military 'coups' in Turkish history. I parenthesize those because the Turkish Constitution defines the military as that force which willl defend the secular values of the Constitution. Calling out the Turkish process as one which is based on 'coups' is to call out the American process as one which is based on insurrections.
But hey, the classic democracy is America, and it has always had universal suffrage, right?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sebster wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Israel was histoprically the only democracy in the region. Iraq is now the second.
You forgot Turkey and Lebanon. An argument could also be made for Jordan (the king holds genuine power so it isn’t a complete democracy, but even if he was elected everyone would totally vote for the king and queen anyway. Have you seen the queen? Goddamn.)
It’s also a very strange value to suddenly find when you look Iran, and what the US did when their democracy voted for a government they didn’t like.
Even more ridiculous: Iraq is a democracy while Turkey is not? What?
What? Who says that?
I have an answer for that question, but I would be banned for sharing it.
You may as well say that Gaza isn't a humanitarian crisis. Utter nonsense.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/06/03 11:49:23
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
What should have been the response after they refused alternate ports and Isreal transporting the humanitarian supplies to Gaza. Run the blockade at your own peril.
Ok. Well here we see an example of the thread, an american blindly following Israel. Sink them with torpedos.....
Now imagine, the Aussies found another boat load of refugees or illegal fishermen entering their waters, and just sank the ship out of hand.
Would that be condemned?
Its a rhetorical question by the way, in case you actually think torpedoing aid convoys is a neat idea.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/03 12:20:34
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Stormrider wrote:Really? Beating soldiers with conduit and shooting them with marbles isn't peaceful. Considering they went with paintball guns with pepper projectiles meant they really were trying to go peacefully, then you see in the thermal camera that the Soldiers were swarmed as they came aboard, and savagely beaten, I call BS on the peace affair. I am really starting to get the idea that this was a set up.
I wouldn't take getting beaten very long before I drew my sidearm to defend my life.
Your being silly.
Orlanth's point was that they WERE demonstrators, as well as being an aid-flotilla. Considering marbles were used... and not bullets, I honestly don't follow your what your trying to say. I think you are calling the demonstrators non-peaceful, then referring to slingshots as weapons of mass destruction... or something along those lines. I don't recall Isreal being required to fastrope commandos onto the vessel. They took action, and the demonstrators reacted... IMO, appropriately.
Honestly though, why is so obviously okay for Israel to commit such acts? Would it be okay if the flotilla was boarded right after leaving European waters? The second they enter international waters, BOARDED. BAM. What is the difference here? Seriously.
The soldiers weren't attacked with marbles, they were being attacked with iron pipes. 40 were "former terrorists."
I'd have followed good old fashioned British tradition. If they didn't stop sink them. Good enough for Britain it should be good enough for Israel.
They weren't aid convoys. Aid travels through the port of Haifa.
Edit: crap I posted in this crap thread on this crap topic. I feel dirty now. Oh well its 8.00AM somewhere, time for more rum.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/06/03 12:43:50
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Really? Beating soldiers with conduit and shooting them with marbles isn't peaceful. Considering they went with paintball guns with pepper projectiles meant they really were trying to go peacefully, then you see in the thermal camera that the Soldiers were swarmed as they came aboard, and savagely beaten, I call BS on the peace affair. I am really starting to get the idea that this was a set up.
I wouldn't take getting beaten very long before I drew my sidearm to defend my life.
Those paintball guns aren't like the type used for the game. They actually had someone die in the US after having been shot ( by accident) with one by the police. You're a 2nd amendment advocate Storm, put yourself in the target's shoes instead of just the soldiers. If someone stormed your vessel, would you consider drawing on them to defend yourself or your friends?
In fairness, the soldiers, as you said, didn't come in with guns firing though. I think it is just a situation we should know more about before we as a nation make decisions.
Grignard wrote:In fairness, the soldiers, as you said, didn't come in with guns firing though. I think it is just a situation we should know more about before we as a nation make decisions.
I have heard opinions that they did indeed fire before boarding the vessel. At the very least, I would expect a few cans of tear gas to be dropped onto the deck.
In summary though, 9 of the people on the main vessel, were killed. Supposedly, no soldiers died.
Israel was the aggressor by any reasonable account, I didn't see boomerangs in those demonstrators hands, nor did I see any projectiles thrown at the helicopter. All of us are watching a PR battle take place, and it is simply unfair to say anything beyond: Angry mob of demonstrators, illogical use of commandos. Far as I can tell there is many weeks, if not months, before anything becomes undeniably clear; as to the events that took place on the main vessel.
I assume that little occurred on the other ships, simply because there is next to no mention of them.
Frazzled wrote:I'd have followed good old fashioned British tradition. If they didn't stop sink them. Good enough for Britain it should be good enough for Israel.
Frazzled wrote:I'd have followed good old fashioned British tradition. If they didn't stop sink them. Good enough for Britain it should be good enough for Israel.
It's not the 19th century.
Quiet, Albatross, you're disagreeing with Frazzamatazz, the obviously biased moderator.
Thatguyoverthere wrote:
Sir Motor wrote:
Powersword is better because its useful when need to do seppuku.
Yes, but consider how awesome it would be to commit seppuku with a powerfist.
I applaud Israel's return to the grand old tradition of privateering. Seizing an enemy merchant vessel is a perfectly acceptable act of aggression just shy of an act of war. Israel wasn't around for the treaty banning their use, so this would be fine.
I can't help but think that flying the Jolly Roger might have made Israel's intentions a little clearer, and prevented some of this resistance. Think of this as a direct and immediate sanction.
Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
Gwar- "And everyone wants a bigger Spleen!"
Mercurial wrote:
I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.
Frazzled wrote:I'd have followed good old fashioned British tradition. If they didn't stop sink them. Good enough for Britain it should be good enough for Israel.
It's not the 19th century.
Quiet, Albatross, you're disagreeing with Frazzamatazz, the obviously biased moderator.
Since when did being a Mod require impartiality? He is allowed to have an opinion you know....
And I have opinions. Calling me a Mod only makes me angry. Don't make me unleash the dogs of war!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
What should have been the response after they refused alternate ports and Isreal transporting the humanitarian supplies to Gaza. Run the blockade at your own peril.
Ok. Well here we see an example of the thread, an american blindly following Israel. Sink them with torpedos.....
Now imagine, the Aussies found another boat load of refugees or illegal fishermen entering their waters, and just sank the ship out of hand.
Would that be condemned?
Its a rhetorical question by the way, in case you actually think torpedoing aid convoys is a neat idea.
The Isreali government offered to take the aid from the ships to Gaza without having the ships violate the blockade. Isreal offered alternate ports to diffuse the situation. Anything and everything Isreal put out there to prevent this situation was denied in order to create a problem and fuel the Palstinian propaganda machine.
If the IHH true mission was to get humanitarian aid to Gaza they would have happily taken the, reasonable IMO, steps offered by the Isreali government in order to assure the people of Gaza received the material. Instead they preach about seeking martyrdom before boarding the ships and viciously attack boarders there to inspect and escort the ships to an acceptable port of entry.
No I am not blindly following Isreal, I have read about and watched enough video on the incident to form my own opinion. Would I torpedo the convoy? Given the rocket attacks by Hamas and groups not neccesarily affiliated with Hamas, but not prosecuted by them either... If I can't inspect your ship to ensure no illegal arms are being transported to those groups, and you attempt to run the naval blockade that's in place to prevent the possibility of weapons reaching Gaza?, Yes I would sink every last ship. I would document the survivors then deport them. If they were found entering the country again they would be prison bound.
Isreali civilians live under constant threat of violence for no better reason than their existance. Isreal could give the Palstinian government all of their current demands and it wouldn't solve a damned thing, because no measure taken short of the dissolution of the State of Isreal will be acceptable to the Palastinians and their supporters in the region. Isreal has every right to defend themselves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/03 13:42:23
Your side is always the "will of the people" the other side is always fundamentalist, extremist, hatemongers, racists, anti- semitic nazies with questionable education and more questionable hygiene. American politics 101.
-SGT Scruffy
~10,000 pts (Retired)
Protectorate of Menoth 75pts (and Growing)
Tyras wrote:
Ok. Well here we see an example of the thread, an american blindly following Israel. Sink them with torpedos.....
Now imagine, the Aussies found another boat load of refugees or illegal fishermen entering their waters, and just sank the ship out of hand.
Would that be condemned?
Its a rhetorical question by the way, in case you actually think torpedoing aid convoys is a neat idea.
The Isreali government offered to take the aid from the ships to Gaza without having the ships violate the blockade. Isreal offered alternate ports to diffuse the situation. Anything and everything Isreal put out there to prevent this situation was denied in order to create a problem and fuel the Palstinian propaganda machine.
If the IHH true mission was to get humanitarian aid to Gaza they would have happily taken the, reasonable IMO, steps offered by the Isreali government in order to assure the people of Gaza received the material. Instead they preach about seeking martyrdom before boarding the ships and viciously attack boarders there to inspect and escort the ships to an acceptable port of entry.
No I am not blindly following Isreal, I have read about and watched enough video on the incident to form my own opinion. Would I torpedo the convoy? Given the rocket attacks by Hamas and groups not neccesarily affiliated with Hamas, but not prosecuted by them either... If I can't inspect your ship to ensure no illegal arms are being transported to those groups, and you attempt to run the naval blockade that's in place to prevent the possibility of weapons reaching Gaza?, Yes I would sink every last ship. I would document the survivors then deport them. If they were found entering the country again they would be prison bound.
Isreali civilians live under constant threat of violence for no better reason than their existance. Isreal could give the Palstinian government all of their current demands and it wouldn't solve a damned thing, because no measure taken short of the dissolution of the State of Isreal will be acceptable to the Palastinians and their supporters in the region. Isreal has every right to defend themselves.
Do you need to defend yourself by boarding vessels crewed by people with....slingshots?....using commandos? Yes, I think they tried to use less than lethal force, and I guess I might pull a sidearm when I started getting beaten, but should they have been used to start with?
Grignard wrote:
Do you need to defend yourself by boarding vessels crewed by people with....slingshots?....using commandos? Yes, I think they tried to use less than lethal force, and I guess I might pull a sidearm when I started getting beaten, but should they have been used to start with?
What else are they supposed to use? Feather dusters, colourful language? Bad breath?
They sent some soldiers to rappel down and board the ship - they are hardly going to send them in unequipped.
Grignard wrote:
Do you need to defend yourself by boarding vessels crewed by people with....slingshots?....using commandos? Yes, I think they tried to use less than lethal force, and I guess I might pull a sidearm when I started getting beaten, but should they have been used to start with?
What else are they supposed to use? Feather dusters, colourful language? Bad breath?
They sent some soldiers to rappel down and board the ship - they are hardly going to send them in unequipped.
Why did they need to use heavily armed commandos though? Were they expecting armed resistance requiring that type of force? Does it seem like it could have been a police matter?
Perhaps they thought it was a cover for gun-running, and that it would be defended by guerillas?
EDIT: Frazz, I accused you of bias because what you locked the other Israel thread for could have been resolved with a few post deletions, while other thread in the OT board have gotten worse but escaped locking when you appeared to be taking sides. I'm just saying that as one of the representatives of order on dakka you should probably keep your distance to stay (relatively - no one's perfect) impartial.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/03 14:05:48
Thatguyoverthere wrote:
Sir Motor wrote:
Powersword is better because its useful when need to do seppuku.
Yes, but consider how awesome it would be to commit seppuku with a powerfist.
Do you need to defend yourself by boarding vessels crewed by people with....slingshots?....using commandos? Yes, I think they tried to use less than lethal force, and I guess I might pull a sidearm when I started getting beaten, but should they have been used to start with?
They could have sent circus performers in to inspect or escort and the reaction from the crew would have been the same. It doesn't matter who they sent in. The mission was not to slaughter the crew, it was to inspect the vessel and take it to a port designated by the government. Had the crew not responded the way they did there wouldn't have been casualties. It was because there is no way to know how the crew would respond that the commandos (specifically trained for boarding missions) were used. Pray for peace, but be prepared for war and all.
The previous policiy of consulting the magic eight ball to determine how blockade runners will react to being boarded was done away with a while ago due to allegations of taking bribes from a Syrian made ouiji board.
Your side is always the "will of the people" the other side is always fundamentalist, extremist, hatemongers, racists, anti- semitic nazies with questionable education and more questionable hygiene. American politics 101.
-SGT Scruffy
~10,000 pts (Retired)
Protectorate of Menoth 75pts (and Growing)
Grignard wrote:
Do you need to defend yourself by boarding vessels crewed by people with....slingshots?....using commandos? Yes, I think they tried to use less than lethal force, and I guess I might pull a sidearm when I started getting beaten, but should they have been used to start with?
What else are they supposed to use? Feather dusters, colourful language? Bad breath?
They sent some soldiers to rappel down and board the ship - they are hardly going to send them in unequipped.
Why did they need to use heavily armed commandos though? Were they expecting armed resistance requiring that type of force? Does it seem like it could have been a police matter?
I think the point to be taken is they genuinely didn't know - hence the response. From an Israeli perspective, this ship had refused repeated attempts to be diverted to a port for inspection and were warned that they would be boarded. Whether that is legal or not is not really the issue; the point is the freighter and it's crew were well aware of their actions and the response it would provoke (in fact, it has been argued that they set out with the express intention of provoking a response and garnering the media attention). The Israeli forces had no way of knowing what was on that freighter and what would happen to their boarding party and I feel they sent in forces to task - I don't think it can be construed as inappropriate force; although what happened next is another matter for debate.
I still cant believe everybody is arguing about this.
Any person here would have started blatting the "hippies" (the most aggressive and violent hippies i have ever seen so i use the term loosely) as soon as they started getting beat up with pipes and chairs and realised they were outnumbered twenty to one.
Instead of just incessantly whining about Israel again, just watch that video and be honest with yourself, even if you feel you have nothing in common with a soldier or a fighting man, you would be papping yourself if you were roping down to that deck. And if your scared, you will use whatever weapon you have to stop that angry mob from getting to grips with you.
Frankly i think the Israelis showed remarkable restraint. If i was the second guy down that rope i would have iced way more than 10 of them. Id have brassed everyone on the deck up and then slept like a baby that same night. feth em. Try and kill my teammates and ill happily fill you with lead and then go for a pint afterwards.
The more i watch it, the more i think it was a set up. The protestors wanted a fight from the moment they set off, they were no ordinary flower power hippies thats for damn sure, and im glad the Israelis didnt disapoint.
And if an Irish boat is trying it again, no doubt it will be full of British idiots as well as Irish, Turkish etc
Just so you know i am unbiased in this matter, i dont care if everyone of the crew are from the UK, gak, i dont care if they are from my street. I think they should stop playing with fire and i think the IDF should just torpedo the fething thing and not risk any of their guys necks with another ridiculously ill conceived boarding action.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
I think the point to be taken is they genuinely didn't know - hence the response. From an Israeli perspective, this ship had refused repeated attempts to be diverted to a port for inspection and were warned that they would be boarded. Whether that is legal or not is not really the issue; the point is the freighter and it's crew were well aware of their actions and the response it would provoke (in fact, it has been argued that they set out with the express intention of provoking a response and garnering the media attention). The Israeli forces had no way of knowing what was on that freighter and what would happen to their boarding party and I feel they sent in forces to task - I don't think it can be construed as inappropriate force; although what happened next is another matter for debate.
Right On.....I agree with this statement
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sebster wrote:
Funnily enough there’s actually a decently sized Christian population in Palestine, about 10%.
And there were 2.1% Christians in Israel in 2005, whats your point? The thread title isn't about why doesn't America back Palestine, becuase there is a 10% Christian population. It's a genuine question as to why they back/favor Israel.
sebster wrote:
Of course, while the narrative is true and very powerful, it doesn’t leads to a serious misunderstanding of the situation going on in Palestine right now. Right now the people there trapped in ghettoes, prevented from building industry or sustaining themselves, suffering frequent abuse from soldiers.
And of course the Palestinians are just innocent little lambs, never doing any wrong.[sarcasm]
sebster wrote:
This probably plays a part. It’s a shame, really, I’d have thought a reading of the bible would encourage people to be kind to the poor and the downtrodden, which the Palestinians obviously are..
Of course and I'm sure there are Christian organizations that are trying to help the Palestinians, maybe those 10%?...... but most Americans believe they have brought those problems upon themselves.
Also as the OP, I would appreciate it if we could get off the topic of the relief boat, and stay on topic of why America backs/favors Israel.
If you want to rehash the relief boat incident please start your own thread.
Really? Beating soldiers with conduit and shooting them with marbles isn't peaceful. Considering they went with paintball guns with pepper projectiles meant they really were trying to go peacefully, then you see in the thermal camera that the Soldiers were swarmed as they came aboard, and savagely beaten, I call BS on the peace affair. I am really starting to get the idea that this was a set up.
I wouldn't take getting beaten very long before I drew my sidearm to defend my life.
Those paintball guns aren't like the type used for the game. They actually had someone die in the US after having been shot ( by accident) with one by the police. You're a 2nd amendment advocate Storm, put yourself in the target's shoes instead of just the soldiers. If someone stormed your vessel, would you consider drawing on them to defend yourself or your friends?
In fairness, the soldiers, as you said, didn't come in with guns firing though. I think it is just a situation we should know more about before we as a nation make decisions.
Well, if they were true protestors they wouldn't have immediately attacked. If they're going to be violent, they shouldn't get a free pass. Protestors shouldn't be violent, as soon as it sinks to that they become rioters.
Since I don't plan on running a blockade, I probably won't have someone boarding my 26' boat. It depends of what their purpose is. If it's a legal reason, I have nothing to do but wait for their search to end.
In all reality, both sides screwed up.
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mattyrm wrote:I still cant believe everybody is arguing about this.
Any person here would have started blatting the "hippies" (the most aggressive and violent hippies i have ever seen so i use the term loosely) as soon as they started getting beat up with pipes and chairs and realised they were outnumbered twenty to one.
You know sometimes I have wish we had the IDF or the US Army policing Northern Ireland for a week or so, then they might appreciate the restraint of the UK Armed Forces. This was unrelated to todays events but just a dream based on the accusations of heavy handedness laid out against our own forces.
Yes Bloody Sunday was a feth up, but it was just about the only one in twenty years, the IDF respond with autofire if they get a stone thrown at them by kids. Can you imagine what would have happened if a 'day in Gaza' turned up in West Belfast during the Troubles and a few kids throwing stones got shot. The IRA used to pay kids to throw stones then run out a gunman close behind them and take a shot using the kids as cover. Soldiers couldn't effectively shoot back. Now sometimes I think we should have been a little more firm with the scum out there, but I also think the IDF go way too far, as do the Yanks.
Look at Iraq, Basra was held with minimal unrest and few civilian casualties, the situation further north got worse and worse because of poorer fire discipline by US forces. Eventually the hatred spread back down south as Iraqis ceased making a distinction and looked at all the invaders as the same. But that was not our fault.
mattyrm wrote:
Instead of just incessantly whining about Israel again, just watch that video and be honest with yourself, even if you feel you have nothing in common with a soldier or a fighting man, you would be papping yourself if you were roping down to that deck. And if your scared, you will use whatever weapon you have to stop that angry mob from getting to grips with you.
Yes I would be scared, but no I would not shoot if trained and led by the people I know. Honestly Matty you wouldn't either, because you have been trained not to. What you are saying really is you wish you could. Ask veterans of Yugoslavia, the ones sent in under the UN 'cannot fire back' mandate, ask them how they dealt with Serbs who knew they could be fired upon. Nobody thought they could keep any peace, which was why the resolution was passed, and the politicians were dumb enough to agree because it made it look like they were making progress; but the soldiers on the ground managed it anyway. British and French soldiers both. If you were around for the tail end of the Troubles perhaps you were around for this. You would have seen it done or known people who have.
mattyrm wrote:
Frankly i think the Israelis showed remarkable restraint. If i was the second guy down that rope i would have iced way more than 10 of them. Id have brassed everyone on the deck up and then slept like a baby that same night. feth em. Try and kill my teammates and ill happily fill you with lead and then go for a pint afterwards.
I am very sorry to say this, but I am wondering who I am talking to, don't you mean you wish you could been there and iced ten of them. That is soldier talk. The guys I know would have been on that deck and done their job with no fatalities, but then again they were Pongos/Brown Jobs. Yes abseiling onto a ship will be different than being on the streets of Basra outnumbered lots to one and managing to hold the line after being told to use rifle stocks only, but the training remains similar.
mattyrm wrote:
The more i watch it, the more i think it was a set up. The protestors wanted a fight from the moment they set off, they were no ordinary flower power hippies thats for damn sure, and im glad the Israelis didnt disapoint.
Very likely some hot heads were on that ship, that wasn't the Israel fan club coming to visit you know. Soldiers are trained and have a higher bar to keep, at least our ones do, you should know this by now. You have to have higher restraint than the angry paniced frightened civilians, especially civilians who know the poor track record (with regards to restraint) of the forces they are facing.
mattyrm wrote:
And if an Irish boat is trying it again, no doubt it will be full of British idiots as well as Irish, Turkish etc
just like the last one waas. Just because I don't like what the IDF and Israeli government are doing doesn't mean I am in any way supportive of the home grown Islamics we have allowed to breed.
On the other hands there will be other peace activists too, also those who are genuinely dangerous Islamics have largely hopped over to Pakistan and joined the cause there. Its understandable for ordinary Uk citizens to be concerned about the plight of the Palestinians, it makes sense our own Moslem community is too both moderate and otherwise.
mattyrm wrote:
Just so you know i am unbiased in this matter, i dont care if everyone of the crew are from the UK, gak, I dont care if they are from my street. I think they should stop playing with fire and i think the IDF should just torpedo the fething thing and not risk any of their guys necks with another ridiculously ill conceived boarding action.
I am not unbiased either, but if they were to do such a crime when the Irish ship arrives I hope Israel faces punitive sanctions. This doesn't not mean to say I am pro Islamic, most of my other posts elsewhere will prove I am not, or against the right of the State of Israel to exist. This is where we differ, if I may be bold to suggest I think your memory from service in the Middle East is soiling your judgement here. I am wondering if you have crossed the line into thinking the only good Arab is a dead one.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
generalgrog wrote:And there were 2.1% Christians in Israel in 2005, whats your point? The thread title isn't about why doesn't America back Palestine, becuase there is a 10% Christian population. It's a genuine question as to why they back/favor Israel.
It's a point of interest, most people people tend to think of Palestine as consisting of a uniformly Muslim population. It's as interesting as you want it to be.
And of course the Palestinians are just innocent little lambs, never doing any wrong.[sarcasm]
No, of course not. Is that really the quality of reasoning, honestly?
'The blockade is keeping these people without the basic supplies needed to live the simplest of lives.'
'Yes, but they're not all good people.'
How much should we force a population into abject poverty because some portion of their number are terrorists? At what point should we start to consider that worsening the conditions in Palestine increases support for Hamas?
Of course and I'm sure there are Christian organizations that are trying to help the Palestinians, maybe those 10%?...... but most Americans believe they have brought those problems upon themselves.
A lack of understanding of the history and conditions in Palestine is a problem, true.
Also as the OP, I would appreciate it if we could get off the topic of the relief boat, and stay on topic of why America backs/favors Israel.
If you want to rehash the relief boat incident please start your own thread.
I think this is fairly smart. People are supporting or criticising the boat action almost exactly in line with their support or criticism of Israel, discussing the boat incident is unlikely to produce any real information. We'd be better off talking about why people support Israel.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/03 17:31:36
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Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
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