Switch Theme:

Americas backing of Israel  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Up to a point. however I found Shumas comments about failed entry to be a result of european racism rather than speccifically Greek. Also you were wrong in fact and principle about Turkey tipping European demographics towarss Islam. Wheras it wouldnt make much difference.


Greece isn't the one banning minarets or burkas. To treat the anti islamic racism of europe as endemic to greece alone is unrealistic.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Up to a point. however I found Shumas comments about failed entry to be a result of european racism rather than speccifically Greek. Also you were wrong in fact and principle about Turkey tipping European demographics towarss Islam. Wheras it wouldnt make much difference.


Greece isn't the one banning minarets or burkas. To treat the anti islamic racism of europe as endemic to greece alone is unrealistic.


Not relevant what we are discussing on topic or even on the threadjack. The minaret ban was in Switzerland, the veil ban was in France, neither are relevant to Greeces problem with Turkish entry to the EU.
Can we get back to the topic now?

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in ca
Inexperienced VF-1A Valkyrie Brownie




I really am not sure I understand Israels logic chain in Gaza. Obviously they consider their security to be of of the highest priority, but do they intend to keep such restrictions on Gaza forever?

Have they ever mentioned a plan b or is keeping a million person ghetto just the plan? Or do they hope to gradually disperse the people in that region through depriving them of any possibility of careers?

The logic of the blockade seems to be counter in my mind towards ever generating a peaceful solution.
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

efarrer wrote:I really am not sure I understand Israels logic chain in Gaza. Obviously they consider their security to be of of the highest priority, but do they intend to keep such restrictions on Gaza forever?

Have they ever mentioned a plan b or is keeping a million person ghetto just the plan? Or do they hope to gradually disperse the people in that region through depriving them of any possibility of careers?

The logic of the blockade seems to be counter in my mind towards ever generating a peaceful solution.


Israel wants gaza. Thats about the extent of the issue. They are interested in increasing the size of their state. The blockade seems logically designed to cause hardship within gaza, likely with the eventual aim of a total flight from it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orlanth wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Up to a point. however I found Shumas comments about failed entry to be a result of european racism rather than speccifically Greek. Also you were wrong in fact and principle about Turkey tipping European demographics towarss Islam. Wheras it wouldnt make much difference.


Greece isn't the one banning minarets or burkas. To treat the anti islamic racism of europe as endemic to greece alone is unrealistic.


Not relevant what we are discussing on topic or even on the threadjack. The minaret ban was in Switzerland, the veil ban was in France, neither are relevant to Greeces problem with Turkish entry to the EU.
Can we get back to the topic now?


Anti islamism is quite relevant to the topic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/04 00:39:22


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Frazzled wrote:They are the only ethnic group specifically targeted for gas chambers.

Aside from the Rom, of course...

   
Made in ca
Inexperienced VF-1A Valkyrie Brownie




JohnHwangDD wrote:
Frazzled wrote:They are the only ethnic group specifically targeted for gas chambers.

Aside from the Rom, of course...

Can't forget the Poles.

Really the Jewish population was furthest along in terms of their nasty work but they had at least three major target groups. Poland was to be totally almost depopulated of Polish people by 1952.

According to Himmler, "All Poles will disappear from the world. [...] It is essential that the great German people should consider it as its major task to destroy all Poles.
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Orlanth wrote:
Up to a point. however I found Shumas comments about failed entry to be a result of european racism rather than speccifically Greek.


Greece is in Europe, is it not? Additionally, there are anti-Islamic movements in many European nations.

Orlanth wrote:
Also you were wrong in fact and principle about Turkey tipping European demographics towarss Islam. Wheras it wouldnt make much difference.


I was wrong about the instantaneous affect of Turkish integration, though I was also parroting an argument rather than making one myself.

I really don't see how you can believe that Turkish membership wouldn't significantly affect European demography. That's plainly false when examining the sheer size of Turkey, and its birth rate when compared to the current EU membership. We're talking about tripling the size of the European Muslim population on the first day of membership, and massively reducing the immigration barrier for those people.

Orlanth wrote:
Taking it back to the orginal commentary Turkey is a valued ally of the US, debunking the idea that Israel is the US's only friend in the region.
I think Frazzie was trying to delimit Turkeys value as an ally by point out Turkeys failure to join the EU. This is not relevant as Turkey, is listed by the CIA as a 'developed country', even if others like the World Bank disagree, Turkey is moderate Islamic so its good to be seen as their friends sometimes, Turkey also has a strong military. Finally Turkey is a strong member of NATO and has been for a long time.


Yes, it does seem that was his intent. One wonders why a given nation's relationship with Europe would be directly relevant to its relationship with the US.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/04 03:06:23


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Orlanth wrote:4. While left largely unspoken it is known that the US broke nuclear proliferation rules to assist in the devlopment of the Israeli nuclear deterent.


They were developed with the help of the French, with some materials provided by the UK. Israel's nukes were developed before the US formed their current relationship of absolute support regardless of what Israel does.

5. Therefore the blame for the current problems in the Middle East can be sourced to backing from Washington.


Unwavering US support plays a part, but I honestly apart from dropping that I doubt the US has a bigger a role to play in an eventual solution. Previous US efforts to broker a deal were much publicised but ultimately any progress made was due to Israeli and Palestinian peacemakers.

The US would do well to stop its unwavering support, after that it's up to Israel and Palestine.


5. The US and Israel pays to relocate the Palestinian community.


As a species we've basically moved past forcefully relocating ethnic groups, it was a pretty bad idea. The horse has likely bolted on the idea too, there is now a strong Palestinian identity (shared suffering will do that), the exodus that might have been possible in the 50s is likely impossible today.

There are Palestinians in refugee camps in Jordan who have been waiting to return home to Palestine for decades, they could join Jordanian society but what they want is to return to their Palestinian homes.

The two state solution is the only real solution.


Kilkrazy wrote:The Israeli government has wide (though not total) popular support from the populace.


It depends which element of policy you're talking about. There's little support for new settlements, but Gaza offensive was almost universally supported in Israel.


generalgrog wrote:Well in your argument you conveniently left out the bad part of Palestinians and focused on the bad part of Israel, which was bad form in my opinion. This goes to the heart of the matter right? Many Americans will back Israel as long as the bad palestinians keep "biting there nose, too spite their face" I will never forget the day 9/11 happened and the media showed all those palestinians celebrating in the streets, yipping and yapping like it was the 4th of July.

I'll also never forget the images of litttle children dressed up in bomb suits before they go blow up a bus or walk into a fruit market and blow it up.


Do you realise how disproportionate the violence is? Over the last decade there's been around 100 Palestinian casualties for every Israeli. I just do not understand what is going on when people talk about how they Israelis sympathise with the Israelis because of their dead, while ignoring that so many more Palestinians are killed indiscriminately.

Has Israel been heavy handed at times? Of course they have. And they should be criticized when they do.


At this point, Israel is more or less out of ideas on how to solve the problem, so 'heavy handed' has just about become not just the method, but the objective. The Gasa offensive was criticised was wildly disproportionate, what critics failed to realise is that the purpose of the operation was to be wildly disproportionate.

However there is this loss of context where people forget what the Israelis have had to put up with for so many years.


Compared to people being almost completely oblivious to what life in Palestine is really like.

They are like the little brother that does wrong, but becuase he is your little brother he gets a pass. Oh you may try and discipine him to try and teach him right, but the bottom line he is, your little brother and you will defend him.


It isn't your little brother, it's a country full of grown adults. They're keeping another group of adults in a state of absolute poverty, and killing lots of them.


Kilkrazy wrote:Everything to do with attacking the boat is off the original topic.

We are supposed to be discussing why the USA backs Israel.

So far two basic theories have been presented.

1. Realpolitik. Israel is the only western-aligned state in a volatile, strategically important area of the world.

2. Religious: Israel needs support in order to bring about the end of the world as promised in Revelations.


3. History. Countries will tend to stick by nations who've been allies for a while, even if they're better off pulling back from the relationship.

4. Narrative. The founding of Israel has a powerful narrative, refugees from persecution forge a new country beset on all sides by enemies. The best stories continue to resonate even when they lose all relevance to the real world.

5. Kickass Israeli PR. About the only thing Israel does better than PR is wetworks. Palestine is catching up, as the recent aid flotilla exercise shows, but they have a long way to go.

6. Lobbying. There are more influential citizens of Jewish ancestry in the US than there are Palestinians.



generalgrog wrote:Why would it have to be an Israeli agent? Why not Hamas or Hezbolah? You think Hezbollah doesn't "want" the violence to continue?

Very Jaded view you have there Orlanth.

GG


That's a fair point. Palestine's government has moved from grossly corrupt and secular to honest but fanatical anti-Israelites. Neither of which have any interest in seeing a charismatic man of peace reach negotiation with Israel.

The issue of what to do about Hamas, and how to encourage a better government in Palestine is a very difficult question, and I really don't know what the answer is. I mean, I know the answer isn't "maintain arbitrary and cruel quarantine restrictions was spontaneously launching incredibly violent raids based on little provocation like they're doing right now" but other than that I'm not sure.


efarrer wrote:The logic of the blockade seems to be counter in my mind towards ever generating a peaceful solution.


True, now consider the possibility that Israel has security as only one of several goals. Expansion is also important, which is why they are settling new territory outside their national boundaries. Keeping Palestine impoverished aids them in taking their land.


efarrer wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Frazzled wrote:They are the only ethnic group specifically targeted for gas chambers.

Aside from the Rom, of course...

Can't forget the Poles.

Really the Jewish population was furthest along in terms of their nasty work but they had at least three major target groups. Poland was to be totally almost depopulated of Polish people by 1952.

According to Himmler, "All Poles will disappear from the world. [...] It is essential that the great German people should consider it as its major task to destroy all Poles.


Yeah, a few people have already corrected Fraz on that. And his claim about Israel and Iraq being the only democracies in the region. He ignored these corrections, said this was a crap thread that he wasn't going to post in. He's still posting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/04 05:44:47


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

sebster wrote:


efarrer wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Frazzled wrote:They are the only ethnic group specifically targeted for gas chambers.

Aside from the Rom, of course...

Can't forget the Poles.

Really the Jewish population was furthest along in terms of their nasty work but they had at least three major target groups. Poland was to be totally almost depopulated of Polish people by 1952.

According to Himmler, "All Poles will disappear from the world. [...] It is essential that the great German people should consider it as its major task to destroy all Poles.


Yeah, a few people have already corrected Fraz on that. And his claim about Israel and Iraq being the only democracies in the region. He ignored these corrections, said this was a crap thread that he wasn't going to post in. He's still posting.


A good point, and very close example of the problems leading to almost total inability for much of the american electorite to critique Israel.

This is sadly a common mistaken historical misconception especially in the US but also elsewhere that has been quite deliberately generated. Much of the external sympathy for Israel and the drive for survivalism within Israel is fueled by Holocaust memory. This is justifiable in itself but the memory is nevertheless heavily diluted if it is known that Jews shared the gas chambers with other people groups and victims. The idea that Jews are 'unique in suffering' logically encourages an greatly extended levity in self defence.
The propoganda has been laid on so thick that questioning 'exclusivity' of Holocaust memorial is considered a form of Holocaust denial by some. This is grossly unfair as Holocaust exclusivity is in all likelihood worse than Holocaust denial. Holocaust Deniers are easy to discredit and effectively harmless because theri bile is offset by the fact that all Holocaust denial achieves is the self-isolation of bigots from open debate. Few debaters would stomach a real Holocaust denier as it taints everything they say from that point onwards. Holocaust exclusivity is a selctive denial of the suffering of non Jews, swallowing out their memory of suffering for partisan political gain. These other victims include but not limited to the Romany, Homosexuals, ethnic Africans, Communists, Evangelical Christians and Jehovahs Witnesses. Each of those groups had its own different coloured stars or triangles to wear in the camp system, the yellow trainagle worn by Jews was only one of many symbols used. We just dont see the others shown on TV, in fact outsides some select history books I have never seen them depicted in the media at all.
The Romany are the only 'race' specifically mentioned other than Jews, that I know of, and while I can beleive that the Nazis had long term ideas for the Poles too, but they were never initiated.

In a any event the fact that Frazzie locked the thread where I first posted this comment, and then opened his commentaries to the new thread with a Holocaust exclusivist comment proving my point tells you all you need to know. Jews were by far the biggest single constituent of the concentration camp system, this is true, but were far from the only ones to suffer. The Romany gypsys were all but annihilated, who cries for them? Noone because so few survived to give tstimony, and those few had no real media access. Still it grates that the Holocaust exclusivity myth is rolled out as an excuse to justify US support for horrific acts of oppression against unrelated peoples nearly seventy years later. This is illogical anyway, after all there is no German population demographic in the West Bank and Gaza.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/06/04 04:13:21


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Personally, I think we should cut off all foreign aid, pay off the US debt, and take care of Americans. And further, if we want to help a historically oppressed group, we should focus on a group that the US government has actively mistreated, not one a foreign government mistreated.

In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer 
   
Made in ca
Inexperienced VF-1A Valkyrie Brownie




sebster wrote:
efarrer wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Frazzled wrote:They are the only ethnic group specifically targeted for gas chambers.

Aside from the Rom, of course...

Can't forget the Poles.

Really the Jewish population was furthest along in terms of their nasty work but they had at least three major target groups. Poland was to be totally almost depopulated of Polish people by 1952.

According to Himmler, "All Poles will disappear from the world. [...] It is essential that the great German people should consider it as its major task to destroy all Poles.


Yeah, a few people have already corrected Fraz on that. And his claim about Israel and Iraq being the only democracies in the region. He ignored these corrections, said this was a crap thread that he wasn't going to post in. He's still posting.


I was one of the first by mentioning the Roma, but further review of the subject, aside from leaving me vaguely ill, revealed to me that I like so many had forgotten the Poles. It seemed unseemly not to mention them.
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

dietrich wrote:Personally, I think we should cut off all foreign aid, pay off the US debt, and take care of Americans. And further, if we want to help a historically oppressed group, we should focus on a group that the US government has actively mistreated, not one a foreign government mistreated.


Unless this data is incorrect, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, dietrich.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s1263.pdf

Compared to the trillion we have spent on the middle east conflict, 42 billion is chump change. 42 billion, as compared to 1000 billion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/04 04:18:27



 
   
Made in ca
Inexperienced VF-1A Valkyrie Brownie




Orlanth wrote:
The Romany are the only 'race' specifically mentioned other than Jews, that I know of, and while I can beleive that the Nazis had long term ideas for the Poles too, but they were never initiated.


They were initiated, just not as calculated. One figure I found estimates 1/5 of Poland's population was dead at the end of the war, primarily as the result of deliberate targeting by the Nazis.

   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Here's an example of what Orlanth is talking about.




Charles Krauthammer is a smart guy. I don't agree with a lot of what he says, but he is capable of making reasonable argument when he is doing actual scholarship, and not writing polemic. Yet he's willing to say that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza, despite the fact that its listed as an area of humanitarian concern by every major aid organization in the world, including USAID.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wrexasaur wrote:
Unless this data is incorrect, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, dietrich.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s1263.pdf

Compared to the trillion we have spent on the middle east conflict, 42 billion is chump change. 42 billion, as compared to 1000 billion.



I think the question here is "Why are we providing military aid to a country which regularly posts ~4% growth rates?"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/04 04:30:03


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wrexasaur wrote:
dietrich wrote:Personally, I think we should cut off all foreign aid, pay off the US debt, and take care of Americans. And further, if we want to help a historically oppressed group, we should focus on a group that the US government has actively mistreated, not one a foreign government mistreated.


Unless this data is incorrect, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, dietrich.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s1263.pdf

Compared to the trillion we have spent on the middle east conflict, 42 billion is chump change. 42 billion, as compared to 1000 billion.

42 billion is a lot smaller than 1000 billion. It's also 42 billion dollars, and last time I checked, that was a lot of money. I don't know what you make, but it's a lot more money than I make or my house is worth. I've hated foreign aid for 15 years, and the US government needs to start balancing a budget and paying off the national debt. Foreign aid is just one of many programs we could cut. Heck, if the money is burning a hole in the pocket of Congress, spend it on infrastructure, which consistently get poor grades from ASCE for roads, bridges, water, sewer, dams, levees, etc. At least that way, you're investing it back into the country and it'd pay off in lower maintenance and rehab costs.

In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Wrexasaur wrote:
dietrich wrote:Personally, I think we should cut off all foreign aid, pay off the US debt, and take care of Americans. And further, if we want to help a historically oppressed group, we should focus on a group that the US government has actively mistreated, not one a foreign government mistreated.


Unless this data is incorrect, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, dietrich.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s1263.pdf

Compared to the trillion we have spent on the middle east conflict, 42 billion is chump change. 42 billion, as compared to 1000 billion.



Notice the payouts to Egypt, nearly half that to Israel, the only two major recipients not considered active warzones with large US deployments. This plus the Israeli withdrawl from Sinai has brought a lasting peace that survived even the assassination of Sadat and secured US utility of the Suez canal. However the $2.3Bn listed in israeli aid money is not everything, some of it must be listed in other types of statistics because the figure of $10Bn per annum is what i keep hearing.

This sort of payout is more than sufficient for a complete generous buyout of the Palestinians over the course of less than a decade. Frankly I can see it as the only logical solution to the problem. While on this subject:

sebster wrote:
5. The US and Israel pays to relocate the Palestinian community.


As a species we've basically moved past forcefully relocating ethnic groups, it was a pretty bad idea. The horse has likely bolted on the idea two, there is no a strong Palestinian identity (shared suffering will do that), the exodus that might have been possible in the 50s is likely impossible today.

There are Palestinians in refugee camps in Jordan who have been waiting to return home to Palestine for decades, they could join Jordanian society but what they want is to return to their Palestinian homes.

The two state solution is the only real solution.


Sebster, in all these threads noone other than myself has actually made any attempt to look at a solution to the problems, and yours is the only reply to the one solution posted. I find that odd frankly.

Yes relocating whole ethnic groups is problematic, but it can and does happen, its already happend to the Palestinains once, and is happening to them on a slow-mo basis today. What hasnt been tried is a forced relocation with massive compensation, allowing for the immense flow of cash from the US to Israel this cannot be ruled out as a viable option.

It doesnt matter than the horse has bolted, naysaying isnt enough. No-one has given any concrete reason why you cant give Arabs a LOT of money to go live elsewhere, especially if the money is enough to give them means in many Arab states, Israeli citizenship for a select few and US citizenship for professional moderate persons. Mweanwhile Israel gets what it wants and the US is saved a long term fortune. I have never seen any other option on the cards that is even remotely as realistic.

In fact the next most realistic long term solution is something similar but relies on the Palestinians just leaving anyway, and the methodologies are very harsh. Noone can honestly beleive a two state solution will work with all the baggage entailed, and too many people want it not to work on both sides.

dogma wrote:Here's an example of what Orlanth is talking about.




Charles Krauthammer is a smart guy. I don't agree with a lot of what he says, but he is capable of making reasonable argument when he is doing actual scholarship, and not writing polemic. Yet he's willing to say that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza, despite the fact that its listed as an area of humanitarian concern by every major aid organization in the world, including USAID.


Oddly enough I was looking for US media interpretations from quality broadsheets to keep myself up to date on what the US thinks about this whole incident and the first article I found was Charles Krauthammer's Israel, Denied article in the Washington post. It was dangerously biased crud loaded with holocaust metaphore.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060304287.html
Is this indicative of the US media coverage of the Middle East?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/04 04:48:05


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

dietrich wrote:42 billion is a lot smaller than 1000 billion. It's also 42 billion dollars, and last time I checked, that was a lot of money. I don't know what you make, but it's a lot more money than I make or my house is worth. I've hated foreign aid for 15 years, and the US government needs to start balancing a budget and paying off the national debt. Foreign aid is just one of many programs we could cut. Heck, if the money is burning a hole in the pocket of Congress, spend it on infrastructure, which consistently get poor grades from ASCE for roads, bridges, water, sewer, dams, levees, etc. At least that way, you're investing it back into the country and it'd pay off in lower maintenance and rehab costs.


Burning a hole in the pocket of congress, eh?

Okay then.

There is an awful lot of information regarding this subject, and as far as I'm concerned, this link isn't a bad place to start.


Orlanth wrote:Oddly enough I was looking for US media interpretations from quality broadsheets to keep myself up to date on what the US thinks about this whole incident and the first article I found was Charles Krauthammer's Israel, Denied article in the Washington post. It was dangerously biased crud loaded with holocaust metaphore.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060304287.html
Is this indicative of the US media coverage of the Middle East?


Cable news? Is that what you are referring to?

If you really want to review clips from (mainly) US cable media, go to: http://www.youtube.com/user/MoxNewsDotCom

There is everything that you could really ask for, and more. Talking heads give me a headache after a while though, but you can definitely get a solid compilation of different news outlets from there.

But... NYT, Al Jazeera, Huff puff, whatever. All of these sources slap cable networks silly, in terms of the solid information you can find.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/04 04:53:57



 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Its indicative of the conservative political position with respect to Israel. Its also indicative of the standard position with respect to Israel within the foreign policy community, largely because its very difficult to advance in that environment without towing the party line.

There's a significant movement against that position amongst the people of my generation within both the International Affairs and Jewish communities, but for the moment Krauthammer represents the entrenched norm.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wrexasaur wrote:There is an awful lot of information regarding this subject, and as far as I'm concerned, this link isn't a bad place to start.

It's one thing if foreign aid is going to build water wells in sub-Sahara Africa for villages to give them clean drinking water. I don't think Israel is spending our foreign aid on clean water, nor do they need to. The US has traditionally shelled out money to foreign powers in order to buy a friend. It didn't work when you were in elementary school, and it doesn't work when you're a country either. If it's genuine aid to improve the living standards of people, it's charity, and we should all be charitable in our lives. US foreign aid isn't charity, it's buying pringles for all the kids in your homeroom.

In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer 
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

Cutting all foreign aid, is not the same sentiment as cutting off SOME foreign aid. I have a hard time figuring out exactly what your position is, but feel free to clarify that point.

Do you consider foreign aid completely unnecessary? Or just foreign aid to a few countries, that likely do not actually need the aid?
Or something else altogether?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/04 05:08:17



 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

It has worked fairly well so far, at least insofar as Egypt is concerned.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wrexasaur wrote:Cutting all foreign aid, is not the same sentiment as cutting off SOME foreign aid. I have a hard time figuring out exactly what your position is, but feel free to clarify that point.

I'd support cutting all foreign aid. I'd tolerate if the spending was kept the same but funneled into actually helping people. Ultimately, the US needs to eliminate it's national debt, and while eliminating foreign aid won't fix it, it'd be someplace to start. Get the debt paid off, and then look to increase funding when you have additional capital available.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think it's a huge crock we're sending money to Israel. Send it to the Congo if you have it burning a hole in your pocket, but it's better to pay off your credit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/04 05:14:05


In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

dogma wrote:Its indicative of the conservative political position with respect to Israel. Its also indicative of the standard position with respect to Israel within the foreign policy community, largely because its very difficult to advance in that environment without towing the party line.

There's a significant movement against that position amongst the people of my generation within both the International Affairs and Jewish communities, but for the moment Krauthammer represents the entrenched norm.


Italicised point. I do not find this in any way ironic. Liberal Jews are normally the hardest and most vocal critics of Israel both inside and outside. Generally this is because it is they are the most easily embarassed by what the Israeli government achieves and also because it is difficult to label a Jewish critic a Holocaust denier, anti Semite or other label which can be thrown at Gentile critics.

There is a third reason revealed indiorectly in a book written in the 80's called By Way of Deception by Victor Ostrovsky, a whistle-blower from the Israeli security services. In the book it is outlined how Mossad sends good quality agents against key Arab states but sends its best agents to America. Keeping America loyal is a big priority in Mossad the book claims and numerous means are allegedly used to achieve this. However again I must give Israel some backhand credit, while having a track record of low moral thresholds regarding foreign persons they do have a very high moral threshold towards Jews. No-one looks after their own like the Israelis do, they will go out of their way to keep faith with their own kind, Israeli citizens or not; I think this reason is why Jewish critics of Israel are largely left alone, even if what they say damages Israels reputation in the very place where they are most eager for it to be maintained.

in any event the fact that many of Israels most vocal critics are Jews is in my opinion very heartening, and helps puncture any attempt to swallow up opposition to Israeli policy as a trademark of the extreme right or Islamic militancy.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Orlanth wrote:Notice the payouts to Egypt, nearly half that to Israel, the only two major recipients not considered active warzones with large US deployments. This plus the Israeli withdrawl from Sinai has brought a lasting peace that survived even the assassination of Sadat and secured US utility of the Suez canal.


It's a funny thing, because in Israel threads you'll always get a steady supply of people coming in to point out that Israel is beset on all sides, but there's Egypt taking the second largest amount of US funding, behind Israel.

Sebster, in all these threads noone other than myself has actually made any attempt to look at a solution to the problems, and yours is the only reply to the one solution posted. I find that odd frankly.


It is a bit sad really. Mind you, it's pretty hard to know what to do. I basically support the two state solution because I've never read about any other practical solution.

I do take your point that there's been little comment on possible solutions as a good one, though.

Yes relocating whole ethnic groups is problematic, but it can and does happen, its already happend to the Palestinains once, and is happening to them on a slow-mo basis today. What hasnt been tried is a forced relocation with massive compensation, allowing for the immense flow of cash from the US to Israel this cannot be ruled out as a viable option.


There's quite a history of relocations. Europe was crazy for it in the first half of the 20th century. But I think times have changed.

It doesnt matter than the horse has bolted, naysaying isnt enough. No-one has given any concrete reason why you cant give Arabs a LOT of money to go live elsewhere, especially if the money is enough to give them means in many Arab states, Israeli citizenship for a select few and US citizenship for professional moderate persons. Mweanwhile Israel gets what it wants and the US is saved a long term fortune. I have never seen any other option on the cards that is even remotely as realistic.


There are a lot of Palestinians living in Jordan, who forgo taking up decent lives there to stay in poor conditions in refugee camps waiting for the chance to return to Palestine. I think you're underestimating the importance an historical home plays to many people.

I'm also wondering how much money you think this will cost. How much is generous compensation, and how many of the 4 million Palestinians do you expect to pay out? And why should the US or any other country pay to move Palestinians because Israel wants more country?

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in au
Death-Dealing Devastator






Yesterday I heard on the news that the Israeli Commandos who raided that boat shot a few Aussies. That made me absolutely furious.

Before I say this, I want to let you know, I intend no racism or anything (in fact my great-grandad was Jewish from Poland).

Is it just me, or does it seem like, just because it happened to them, the Israelites think they have the right to go and shoot people? Like someone else mentioned, it's not like the Jews have such a clean slate themselves. The Bible says that they went down out of Egypt into the Promised Land and butchered the Cananites, killing anything that wasn't of Jewish stock.

I'm afraid I'm siding with the Palestinians on this one, Gaza is going to have to be liberated, one way or another.

Blood Ravens W: 5 D: 3 L: 5
Argent Castellans: Ideating on a new non-codex chapter.
"It is only fitting that we ride into battle!"
Imperial Guard soon.  
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

sebster wrote:
It's a funny thing, because in Israel threads you'll always get a steady supply of people coming in to point out that Israel is beset on all sides, but there's Egypt taking the second largest amount of US funding, behind Israel.


And Jordan, which is the fifth most significant recipient.


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





dogma wrote:And Jordan, which is the fifth most significant recipient.


True. And then there's the record of Jordan and Israel reasonably close relationship, which was formed without any US encouragement.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

sebster wrote:Expansion is also important, which is why they are settling new territory outside their national boundaries. Keeping Palestine impoverished aids them in taking their land.


This has never been a secret. Look at their flag: Everything between the Tigris and Euprhates...
____

Orlanth wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Frazzled wrote:They are the only ethnic group specifically targeted for gas chambers.

Aside from the Rom, of course...


The Romany are the only 'race' specifically mentioned other than Jews, that I know of, and while I can beleive that the Nazis had long term ideas for the Poles too, but they were never initiated.


Proportionally, I think the Rom suffered worse than the Jews, but in terms of sheer numbers of atrocities, I think one has to look at the Japs. And even within Europe, Stalin killed more Russians than Hitler did Jews. For this reason, I'm not particularly sympathetic to the Jews when the raise WW2 dead as a basis for moral imperviousness.

   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





sebster:

Do you honestly believe that distributing the great mass of the Palestinians around the Middle East is practical? The Arabs hate Palestinians almost as much as they hate Kurds and Jews.
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





Foreign aid is just one of many programs we could cut.


Cutting spending on things is not really as straightforward, nor as valuable, as is often assumed.

It's not about not spending money on foreign aid. It's about getting positive ROI on foreign aid. For example, if we spend a couple billion on AIDS prevention in Africa, and that prevents it from spreading, and causing more Americans to get AIDS, we might actually end up saving ourselves money in the net.

Really, this goes for ALL spending. As long as the money is producing tangile, cost effective benefits, spending it is really not a bad thing.

This sort of payout is more than sufficient for a complete generous buyout of the Palestinians over the course of less than a decade.


I don't think money is an issue. I don't think any amount of money would allow Israel to "buy" what they want. There's ideological conflicts at work in that region that are beyond a price.

Is it just me, or does it seem like, just because it happened to them, the Israelites think they have the right to go and shoot people?


This is actually what Mahmoud Ahmadinejad says all the time. People call him a Holocaust denier, and perhaps he goes that far, but the vast majority of the time, what he's really asking is why the Holocaust entitles Jews/Israel to (what he feels) is special treatment.

FWIW, nobody set out to shoot Australians (or Turks, or anyone). Israel wanted to stop the ship. The ship wanted to break the cordon, and draw attention to the situation. For some reason, there was a clusterfork, and people got shot. It's important to understand that there was no intention to shoot anybody, and this situation is really about whether or not Israel has a right to blockade Gaza.



=====Begin Dakka Geek Code=====
DA:70+S++G+++M+++B++I++Pw40k00#+D++A++++/wWD250T(T)DM++
======End Dakka Geek Code======

http://jackhammer40k.blogspot.com/ 
   
 
Forum Index » Off-Topic Forum
Go to: