Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

in regards to legions and CSM in general there DOES need to be more uniqueness.


i say since most CSM are way older than normal SM on average they bring back vet abilities, but only let chosen and select few be able to use them.

I also would be happy with a simple marked deamons, nothing like Codex deamons.


I ALSO would like to not only see more deamon engines, but more uniquness to the vehicles as a whole. you need to remember most of the legions do not produce thier own armor any

@aka_mythos
There is no other viable solution that does not involve multiple codices. Sure codex Renegades or Codex: World Eaters would be nice but GW would never do it as the market is not there (in their opinion anyway). As well as this, other factions like Moridian Iron Guard and Harlequins would want their own codex.

Structurally I think Chaos should be more like the Vanilla marines book as it currently allows a SM player to play a wide variety of very different armies (gun line, assault, biker army, Scout Army) and this would migrate very well for chaos (such as Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion). I agree there should be a distinction but this can be done with chaos specific units and upgrades (like the Defiler, Daemon Prince and daemon weapons) and a greater variety of them (the current CSM book has a small amount of units and upgrades). I should also add that the next CSM book should not mimic the SM book unit for unit, only its structure .

The current SM book is very well written in terms of structure, simplicity and variety. Sure the 3.5 dex and the 2nd edition chaos book had heaps of variety and rules but they were very hard to read and "mish mash" in terms of how they were written

Slarg232 wrote:It might be to your benefit that GW slows down, however, that is was your choice when you decided to play multiple armies. I don't want to say your opinion is less valid than mine because I play exclusive Chaos, and would be hit pretty hard with such a split, and that you play twenty some armies (Yes, I do have a tendancy to exaggerate), and such a drastic change to one army wouldn't affect you, but my voice should be heard a little more than yours, since you will still be walking around with your amount of armies, whereas my spin would be snapped. There is no way I would be willing to spend $1000 dollars on my army and then have it changed so drastically that I can't use half of that. People who own multiple armies are not exactly in the top purview of having to worry about any one single army.....

Also, think of it this way: If one army based on one thing doesn't sell well, how are three? If one army based on Chaos is not justified by sales returns, how can they expect three to do it? That's like saying they should have made Chaos Squats, Pirate Squats, and then regular Squats.....

As for that Dwarves/Chaos Dwarves comment, I don't. I have always thought that they should get rules that differentiate them from their lighter counterpart, but not to the point where they tear the army apart in the process.

Probably, but until I get my own hobby up and have that spread around a little, I am kinda stuck with WH40K, and besides, I like the fluff and the models. And I also have invested way too much into my Chaos army to want to invest in any others. I'm not made of money, and these toy soldiers ain't cheap....

A few points:
- The only opinions which really matter are those of Jervis, Tom, and the others in the studio. Whatever the rest of us might have to say matters not at all, aside from making our voices heard via our wallets.
- I own well over 25k pts worth of 40k models. If we're playing 1500-pt games as God himself (i.e. Jervis) intended, there is a pretty darned good chance I actually can field 20 armies.
- The only way your voice would be heard a smidgen louder is if you spent a *lot* more than me, say 200k worth of Chaos. But at that point, you've got every Legion and Power covered several times over, so you can play any flavor of Chaos in any game.
- Aside from my first few months starting out with Eldar, I never played exclusive to any army. I really started with 4 armies (Eldar, CSM, IG & SM), so that's just how I roll, and I've always enjoyed the variety, along with the option not to play a weak army if I don't want to.

- Between 40k and WFB, presumably, Chaos sells well enough, hence the very frequent updates - between the two systems, there are as many Chaos releases as SMs.
- If GW's strategy of fracturing things wasn't paying off for them, presumably, they'd have stopped it. Wet & Dry Undead, 3 WFB Chaos, 2 40k Chaos, 5 Loyalist SMs, 2 WFB Humans, 3 WFB Elves, and IG&Tau say this strategy reaps the most rewards.

- 40k is a lot of fun, but it takes money.

Anyhow, back to my first point, I've given up on trying to influence GW on rules. Whatever GW does, I'll adapt. If they're stupid, they get less money. Or I stop. Not a biggie. I can always trade or sell off as long as GW doesn't close up. I guess, the final point is that I've effectively reached 40k nirvana, in that I really don't need to care one iota what GW does anymore.

Well then... I think we should move on.

I think whether people side with the idea of multiple books or a single one, most everyone agrees it would be to chaos' benefit to see the 4 chaos cults expanded upon.

With the Bezerkers, Thousand Sons, Noise Marines, and Plague Marines as troop choices any expansion on them would rely on creating new units that sit in other areas of the FOC. I think the basis for it would most easily applied as more elite versions of each of the 4.

For lack of better names, I'll refer to the elite forms of each a Chosen-B, Chosen-T, Chosen-N, and Chosen-P.
These chosen version I think would need to exemplify the traits of each to a greater degree. Giving Chosen-B and Chosen-P better forms of their close combat weapons would be appropriate, a better chain ax and a better plague knife. Chosen-T could get terminator armor in addition to applying their special ammo to their combi-bolters. Chosen-N I think would be appropriate to see on bikes as a partial throw back to the Doom Rider, where they can still take advantage of the "heavy" stat lines even when moving around and its loud I think they'd like that.

I think thats some very basic ideas. What other crazy ideas would people think appropriate?

aka_mythos wrote:most everyone agrees it would be to chaos' benefit to see the 4 chaos cults expanded upon.

With the Bezerkers, Thousand Sons, Noise Marines, and Plague Marines as troop choices any expansion on them would rely on creating new units that sit in other areas of the FOC.

I think the basis for it would most easily applied as more elite versions of each of the 4.

For lack of better names, I'll refer to the elite forms of each a Chosen-B, Chosen-T, Chosen-N, and Chosen-P.

These chosen version I think would need to exemplify the traits of each to a greater degree.

The Cults should be expanded upon, but not in the basic CSM book. The Legions book is really BA / BT / DA / SW all rolled into one big book, while the CSM book is an analogue to the current SM book. There's easily enough source material to justify a Legions book, and cutting out the generic stuff like Obliterators, Defilers, and Vindicators makes room for Cult-specific items.

The lists should really be built as separate, standalone lists, clean sheet starting with the Cult Marines as Troops, with Cult Greater & Lesser Daemons, and adding Cult-specific stuff to fill out and balance. For example, the Cults should *each* have a Cult-specific Defiler variant (share legs) a la SM Dread variants. This gives a 4-in-1 boxed set to make any of 4 Cult Engines, kind of like a 4-in-1 Razorback or Pred. The focus shifts from Cult Dread to Defiler chassis as the iconic Walker of the army, and the Dread remains marginalized (due to its link back to SM). Make 4 Cult Engines, and the whining about no Chaos Dread goes away because the Cult Engines are way cooler and more distinctive.

Um, Chosen-N are Chosen-Nurgle, right??? Name-wise, I'd strongly suggest using the Power as the ID K for Khorne, S for Slaanesh, etc. *Much* easier for those who play Chaos.

I strongly disagree that the basis of differentiation should be limited to or based on Cult Chosen. That's too narrow and limited. Each Cult Chosen should start with AA, and have the option for TDA, while HQs can can upgrade to gain TDA or Chaos Armor. Adding MoS Bikes, MoK Juggers, MoS JPs, and MoT teleport would be nice differentiators.

Regardless, Cult-specific weapons and psyker upgrades should be key. Leave C: CSM with the watered-down Marked weapons & powers for mix-and-match players, moving all of "the good stuff" to C: Legions. For example, Lash can stay as-is as a MoS power, because it's only available within a pure MoS army context. Without Vindicators or Obliterators in the list, Lash is much less of a problem to balance.

I just hope GW doesn't go halvsies on Legions, whenever they get around to it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:most everyone agrees it would be to chaos' benefit to see the 4 chaos cults expanded upon.

With the Bezerkers, Thousand Sons, Noise Marines, and Plague Marines as troop choices any expansion on them would rely on creating new units that sit in other areas of the FOC.

I think the basis for it would most easily applied as more elite versions of each of the 4.

For lack of better names, I'll refer to the elite forms of each a Chosen-B, Chosen-T, Chosen-N, and Chosen-P.

These chosen version I think would need to exemplify the traits of each to a greater degree.

The Cults should be expanded upon, but not in the basic CSM book. The Legions book is really BA / BT / DA / SW all rolled into one big book, while the CSM book is an analogue to the current SM book. There's easily enough source material to justify a Legions book, and cutting out the generic stuff like Obliterators, Defilers, and Vindicators makes room for Cult-specific items.

The lists should really be built as separate, standalone lists, clean sheet starting with the Cult Marines as Troops, with Cult Greater & Lesser Daemons, and adding Cult-specific stuff to fill out and balance. For example, the Cults should *each* have a Cult-specific Defiler variant (share legs) a la SM Dread variants. This gives a 4-in-1 boxed set to make any of 4 Cult Engines, kind of like a 4-in-1 Razorback or Pred. The focus shifts from Cult Dread to Defiler chassis as the iconic Walker of the army, and the Dread remains marginalized (due to its link back to SM). Make 4 Cult Engines, and the whining about no Chaos Dread goes away because the Cult Engines are way cooler and more distinctive.

Um, Chosen-N are Chosen-Nurgle, right??? Name-wise, I'd strongly suggest using the Power as the ID K for Khorne, S for Slaanesh, etc. *Much* easier for those who play Chaos.

I strongly disagree that the basis of differentiation should be limited to or based on Cult Chosen. That's too narrow and limited. Each Cult Chosen should start with AA, and have the option for TDA, while HQs can can upgrade to gain TDA or Chaos Armor. Adding MoS Bikes, MoK Juggers, MoS JPs, and MoT teleport would be nice differentiators.

Regardless, Cult-specific weapons and psyker upgrades should be key. Leave C: CSM with the watered-down Marked weapons & powers for mix-and-match players, moving all of "the good stuff" to C: Legions. For example, Lash can stay as-is as a MoS power, because it's only available within a pure MoS army context. Without Vindicators or Obliterators in the list, Lash is much less of a problem to balance.

I just hope GW doesn't go halvsies on Legions, whenever they get around to it.

Well that is certainly cynical.

When it comes to GW cynicism is healthy.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The Cults should be expanded upon, but not in the basic CSM book. The Legions book is really BA / BT / DA / SW all rolled into one big book, while the CSM book is an analogue to the current SM book. There's easily enough source material to justify a Legions book, and cutting out the generic stuff like Obliterators, Defilers, and Vindicators makes room for Cult-specific items.

I think that is justifiable and likely to produce some of the best options, I just think of all the options GW takes this might be the least likely.

I'm kinda balancing what I'm saying in the middle ground between what we have and what seems most likely. So the "ideal" notions are a little harder to fit in.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Um, Chosen-N are Chosen-Nurgle, right??? Name-wise, I'd strongly suggest using the Power as the ID K for Khorne, S for Slaanesh, etc. *Much* easier for those who play Chaos.

That was a poor choice on my part.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I strongly disagree that the basis of differentiation should be limited to or based on Cult Chosen. That's too narrow and limited. Each Cult Chosen should start with AA, and have the option for TDA, while HQs can can upgrade to gain TDA or Chaos Armor. Adding MoS Bikes, MoK Juggers, MoS JPs, and MoT teleport would be nice differentiators.

I like you're ideas, I just think we're looking at it from two different sides. I think you're ocming from a more idealized place while I'm trying to imagine the more disappointing reality GW is likely to give us. I think its atleast some what reasonable, speaking from the context of the current codex, that anything GW adds to the basic C: CSM would likely be designed to fill holes left by a lack of daemons.
Following on an assumption of a restricted CSM more similar to its current format, I think we could only see one or two new units per cult. I think seeing daemon engines would be key. GW could play some trikery their by making some as you recommend, Defiler variants, but also a variant on an inevitable Chaos Dreadnought kit. For example the imagery of Thousand Sons using dreadnoughts is common enough, so the notion that they'd bind daemons onto them turning them into daemon engines isn't too far fetched. In the hypothetical situation that we see that trickery used, the possibility of a unique model being made for atleast one cult seems likely. Bringing in something like Blood Slaughters or Blight Drones becomes more plausible if other engines don't require as much attention.

Now back to the other side and assuming only one extra unit for each, if the Chosen of Nurgle, Chosen of Tzeentch, Chosen of Khorne, and Chosen of Slaanesh became a reality and were to design to fill the vacated niche's left by the departure of daemons. I think Bike or cavalry style Noise marines as well as teleporting Thousand Sons would fill the need for mobile fast elements. If Chosen of Slaanesh had bikes the extra toughness would diminish the need for a terminator armor or chaos armor option. If Slaanesh had bikes I could see bezerker jugernaughts as a cavalry styled option, despite the current rules. I think it all leaves nurgle as the least straight forward. If they got their blight drone there Chosen of Nurgle unit could be something other than a mobile unit. I always thought it would be intereting to see what becomes of a Plague Marine when their swelling and everything goes further. Some offshoot of Obliterator or Possessed would seems appropriate. A plagued obliterator has a certain appealing imagery to it as an alternative to purchasing terminator armor or chaos armor, but so does a bunch of smaller great unclean one look alikes that are intermediates between possesed and daemon princes. Either option does paint an interesting opportunity for balance where by each of the 4-gods chosen improve their survivability by different means; slaanesh bike toughness bonus, Thousand sons termi-armor, and Khorne jugernoughts. Plague Obliterator/Possessed type thing could have either the better save or maybe just the improved volume of wounds on top of the normal bag of tricks. I think even in the Cult only book of your dreams, its appealing given how you proposed the removal of certain units.

aka_mythos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:The Cults should be expanded upon, but not in the basic CSM book. The Legions book is really BA / BT / DA / SW all rolled into one big book, while the CSM book is an analogue to the current SM book.

I like you're ideas, I just think we're looking at it from two different sides. I think you're ocming from a more idealized place while I'm trying to imagine the more disappointing reality GW is likely to give us.

I think its atleast some what reasonable, speaking from the context of the current codex, that anything GW adds to the basic C: CSM would likely be designed to fill holes left by a lack of daemons.

Following on an assumption of a restricted CSM more similar to its current format, I think we could only see one or two new units per cult.

I think seeing daemon engines would be key. GW could play some trikery their by making some as you recommend, Defiler variants, but also a variant on an inevitable Chaos Dreadnought kit.

the possibility of a unique model being made for atleast one cult seems likely. Bringing in something like Blood Slaughters or Blight Drones becomes more plausible if other engines don't require as much attention.

A plagued obliterator has a certain appealing imagery to it

I think even in the Cult only book of your dreams, its appealing given how you proposed the removal of certain units.

GW can take either of a couple paths here, one is to backtrack and re-expand CSM with cults and the various items that they expressly removed (tacitly admitting that they made a mistake), and the other is to give the knife a sharp twist and shove it in a bit deeper (proving that the players were wrong all along). I do like to think GW is proud enough and stubborn enough to push through with success no matter how much veterans might complain that their armies have been invalidated precisely because the changes ultimately drive more sales. So which is *really* more likely? Hard to say.

I see GW filling some holes in C: CSM, but that would be more due to the general expansion of army lists. Right now, GW has a fairly clean slate to work with. If I were GW, I'd address C: CSM by adding more MoCU options: a Word Bearer Dark Apostle who gives a bonus to Lesser Daemons, an Alpha Legion Leader who allows Cultists to be purchased as Troops, and so on. Kind of like Vulkan, Pedro, etc. do in C: SM.

I don't see GW adding any more Cult stuff in C: CSM, precisely because the role it plays as basic Chaos prevents this. And such Cult expansion actually prevents GW for producing the Legions book that they say they want to do.

As above, Dreads are for the corpse-follower. Defilers are for Chaos. It would be counter-productive for GW to make multiple Dreads, because they'd just be retreading the Chaos is Spikey. And quite frankly, there are so many SM Dreads, trying to carve out a Chaos-specific design space would be pointless. Just a basic, plastic "Chaos" Dread is all that is really needed or desired.

Quite frankly, Chaos Cults will do better with plastic Plague Marines, plastic Noise Marines, and plastic Rubric Marines than plastic Blight Drones. First things first. Tho I must say that a new-style "Blood Slaughterer" MoK Defiler variant would be very welcome.

Chosen Nurgle Plague Terminators are great, but the idea of Plague *Obliterator* kinda annoys me, because Obliterators are lightly tied to Iron Warriors, not Nurgle.

That Legions book is complement and contrast to the current CSM book. It trades flexibility for depth.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I see GW filling some holes in C: CSM, but that would be more due to the general expansion of army lists. Right now, GW has a fairly clean slate to work with. If I were GW, I'd address C: CSM by adding more MoCU options: a Word Bearer Dark Apostle who gives a bonus to Lesser Daemons, an Alpha Legion Leader who allows Cultists to be purchased as Troops, and so on. Kind of like Vulkan, Pedro, etc. do in C: SM.

I don't see GW adding any more Cult stuff in C: CSM, precisely because the role it plays as basic Chaos prevents this. And such Cult expansion actually prevents GW for producing the Legions book that they say they want to do.
...
Quite frankly, Chaos Cults will do better with plastic Plague Marines, plastic Noise Marines, and plastic Rubric Marines than plastic Blight Drones. First things first. Tho I must say that a new-style "Blood Slaughterer" MoK Defiler variant would be very welcome.

Chosen Nurgle Plague Terminators are great, but the idea of Plague *Obliterator* kinda annoys me, because Obliterators are lightly tied to Iron Warriors, not Nurgle.

That Legions book is complement and contrast to the current CSM book. It trades flexibility for depth.

GW I think has really shunned away from giving sublists a unique unit. A Dark Apostle I think would be an easy enough to do as a special character, but if its insisted that it be a generic unit entry, I think then it would be something available to everyone before it would tucked away as something special. The same can be said for cultist. I think Cultists could work in a CSM codex, but I think they should maybe be treated as a secondary choice. Something like, they're a non-scoring troop choice for everyone but Alpha Legion, who get them as scoring. Thus emphasizing their use of cultists without restricting others from using them.

My rational for GW doing some additional cult units, is because any time they do something new, especially something that self competes they tend to go over board and find a way to use the new sprues in multiple places. I think its always possible to see a mix. Only as an situational example, something like Noise Marines getting biked noise marines, and Khorne getting Blood Slaughters; that the contrast don't have to be one for one parallels.

With the Chosen of Nurgle, I was just using that as an example of different directions could be used to contrast each cult from each other. I don't really think nurgle should get obliterators, I was just using obliterators and possessed as an analog for the type of tougher daemon bonded unit of a smaller size... something in between the two.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
As above, Dreads are for the corpse-follower. Defilers are for Chaos. It would be counter-productive for GW to make multiple Dreads, because they'd just be retreading the Chaos is Spikey. And quite frankly, there are so many SM Dreads, trying to carve out a Chaos-specific design space would be pointless. Just a basic, plastic "Chaos" Dread is all that is really needed or desired.

I wasn't saying it would be a chaos dreadnought variant so much as daemon engine that uses some portion of kit. I just think that if GW were to go forward with additional daemon engines, it would be worth while to show how chaos can manifest daemon engines in different forms, that defilers aren't the only type. On some level it can be said chaos never really pursued new rhino or landraider variants or any of the other "new" post heresy STCs because they dumped their efforts into researching different daemon engines. Thus some low number of additional daemon engine can be justified as filling vehicular holes. It could be used to add flavors based on legion or affiliation, like a daemon cannon for Iron Warriors, or something more in the vein of the soul grinder.

ORLY? BT lack Sword Brethren, BA lack Sanguinary Guard, and Spaze Woofs don't ride Woofs?

So-and-So, Word Bearers Dark Apostle would obviously be a Special Character like Abby of the Black Legion or the big hand guy of the Red Corsairs. Special Alphy of Alpha Legion works like Fabius Bile, and simply unlocks cheap Scoring Cultists as part of his full-page entry; nobody else gets them.

After the SW and BA, I'd expect GW to make Noise Marines with NM TDA bitz, compatible with Bikers, and extra bitz for the Dread and Rhino. Same with other Cults. The Blood Slaughterer is just a new weapon set for the Defiler Engine, so easy.

I'm speaking within a codex. Those examples are specific units within there own codices, that as long as you're using that codex you can use those units. There are ways they can all be modified, but they are all immediately available.

GW is moving away from unlockable units. If a units in a codex it can be taken.

I think the closest thing to what you're talking about are FB's Enhanced Warriors and some of the more specialized bodyguard/command squad type units.

I really wish that GW hadn't divorce CSM and the Daemon codex.

Summoned Daemons are just a waste of points. The DH daemons are better and they're 3rd edition and have instability.

Though I have to say the Daemon codex is very good as a stand alone.

The author who wrote C: CSM was forced to remove daemons, he apparently had to fight just to get the summoned daemons into the book. I don't think it would have been as annoying if we had gotten at least single new unit.

The hole thing just doesn't sit well with me. I think daemon prince should be an up grade for a chaos lord. I can't get why they would make a unit on it's own there isn't enough upgrades for the unit to make it worth having it separate.

And the Marks should give you access to more then one rule or power, even the daemon weapons come off as under powered.

I don't know. It's just when you look back at the CSM codex I always feel as if there should be so much more than whats there.

Well CSM have as many flavors as the loyalists, there are 11 flavors of Loyalists, 6 in C: SM and then the 5 other non-codex marine books. Chaos has 10 flavors of CSM and then Daemons and yet chaos only has 2 books to cover it all. This why our book has either been very big (RT), very full (4th), or very generic (2nd, 3rd, and 5th).

I think in the ideal setting where GW's main concern was veteran players we'd see a large super sized book, containing all Chaos in one big tomb another big book for Loyalist Marines, and thrid for all the other Imperium forces. Each about 200 pages. Where within the book you'd have all the units any sublist can take listed, with sections dedicated to a legion or faction with a break down of what units can be used, the FOC arrangement, and any other modifiers; layed out in more exacting detail. With a larger format they'd be able to place the types of restrictions necessary to keep things from going too crazy.

Chaos dreads should come in at least 2 varieties. In the fluff there seems to a distinction between the run-of-the-mill crazy dreads like the ones we currently have in the codex and honored ancients like Berossus from Dead Sky, Black Sun or the Warmonger from Dark Apostle who are much more lucid. So I'd like to see, in addition to regular dread with the frenzy rule, a "venerable" one which isn't subject to frenzy or at least has a much lower chance of it, maybe just suffering the effects on a failed Ld test (if he fails the test he gets "confused"). The regular dread should be attachable to a squad of Chaos marines which act as handlers. Every turn you could choose to devote some number of squad members to the task of keeping the dread under control. Maybe for every squad member that doesn't shoot or assault you can add/subtract 1 from the frenzy roll? The plastic Chaos dread kit could even include 2 or 3 sets of CSM arms holding chains which attach to the dread to represent this.

The codex should include a unit of cultists with the option to upgrade them to mutants. They could release a plastic box set which could also do double duty in the Chaos Daemons codex. In the CSM codex they would serve as cannon fodder, while in the Chaos Daemons codex they would act as summoning points for the daemons to use when they come in. They would not be scoring in either codex.

Also Alpharius should be available as a special character HQ choice. No, you don't actually get to take a primarch. In fact, you don't actually take anything - "Alpharius" has no statline and is never deployed. You simply pay some points, give up an HQ slot, and in return all your cultists become scoring and your unmarked CSM get ATSKNF - because your entire army is Alpharius. And yes, Alpharius can count as your mandatory HQ choice - cuz Alpha Legion don't need no lousy HQ!

I've kinda noticed the same thing with regards to dreadnoughts. The current rational for why they're crazy is because being locked in separates them from the heat of battle. I think from the stand point of distinguishing them, it could be something in the vein of the more venerated dreadnoughts recieve a blessing from chaos melding them daemonically to the machine in much the same way obliterators are melded to their suits.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:The Cults should be expanded upon, but not in the basic CSM book. The Legions book is really BA / BT / DA / SW all rolled into one big book, while the CSM book is an analogue to the current SM book.

I like you're ideas, I just think we're looking at it from two different sides. I think you're ocming from a more idealized place while I'm trying to imagine the more disappointing reality GW is likely to give us.

I think its atleast some what reasonable, speaking from the context of the current codex, that anything GW adds to the basic C: CSM would likely be designed to fill holes left by a lack of daemons.

Following on an assumption of a restricted CSM more similar to its current format, I think we could only see one or two new units per cult.

I think seeing daemon engines would be key. GW could play some trikery their by making some as you recommend, Defiler variants, but also a variant on an inevitable Chaos Dreadnought kit.

the possibility of a unique model being made for atleast one cult seems likely. Bringing in something like Blood Slaughters or Blight Drones becomes more plausible if other engines don't require as much attention.

A plagued obliterator has a certain appealing imagery to it

I think even in the Cult only book of your dreams, its appealing given how you proposed the removal of certain units.

GW can take either of a couple paths here, one is to backtrack and re-expand CSM with cults and the various items that they expressly removed (tacitly admitting that they made a mistake), and the other is to give the knife a sharp twist and shove it in a bit deeper (proving that the players were wrong all along). I do like to think GW is proud enough and stubborn enough to push through with success no matter how much veterans might complain that their armies have been invalidated precisely because the changes ultimately drive more sales. So which is *really* more likely? Hard to say.

I see GW filling some holes in C: CSM, but that would be more due to the general expansion of army lists. Right now, GW has a fairly clean slate to work with. If I were GW, I'd address C: CSM by adding more MoCU options: a Word Bearer Dark Apostle who gives a bonus to Lesser Daemons, an Alpha Legion Leader who allows Cultists to be purchased as Troops, and so on. Kind of like Vulkan, Pedro, etc. do in C: SM.

I don't see GW adding any more Cult stuff in C: CSM, precisely because the role it plays as basic Chaos prevents this. And such Cult expansion actually prevents GW for producing the Legions book that they say they want to do.

As above, Dreads are for the corpse-follower. Defilers are for Chaos. It would be counter-productive for GW to make multiple Dreads, because they'd just be retreading the Chaos is Spikey. And quite frankly, there are so many SM Dreads, trying to carve out a Chaos-specific design space would be pointless. Just a basic, plastic "Chaos" Dread is all that is really needed or desired.

Quite frankly, Chaos Cults will do better with plastic Plague Marines, plastic Noise Marines, and plastic Rubric Marines than plastic Blight Drones. First things first. Tho I must say that a new-style "Blood Slaughterer" MoK Defiler variant would be very welcome.

Chosen Nurgle Plague Terminators are great, but the idea of Plague *Obliterator* kinda annoys me, because Obliterators are lightly tied to Iron Warriors, not Nurgle.

That Legions book is complement and contrast to the current CSM book. It trades flexibility for depth.

Oblits have a knack of kickin' it with the Iron Warriors, they are gneerrally undivided tho and nomadicaly move from legion to legion with their own agenda.

aka_mythos wrote:I've kinda noticed the same thing with regards to dreadnoughts. The current rational for why they're crazy is because being locked in separates them from the heat of battle. I think from the stand point of distinguishing them, it could be something in the vein of the more venerated dreadnoughts recieve a blessing from chaos melding them daemonically to the machine in much the same way obliterators are melded to their suits.

3rd ed codex for CSM staes hat the dreds are nuts because many have been locked in there for centuries too; and even some since the HH. Yeah i definatley think there should be an upgrade or stock for some venerableish action; but no other variants save iron warriors should have the rifleman option and emp. children should have sonic.

I think sonic weapons are cool and all, and I play EC, but if EC can take dreads with sonic weapons why can't TS dreads take heavy bolters with inferno shots? OR a dreadnought of Khorne with big cutty things or nurgl-ized with plague. When you start coming up with units like this either everyone gets it, or they get something like it, or it becomes a no brainer situation where it doesn't matter since there is only one "real" choice.

These type of restricted and specialized options is what GW wanted to get away from when they went to the newest codex. The options work in a codex devoted to those individual sub-factions but as a single book its burdensome for newbies and opponents.

aka_mythos wrote:I think sonic weapons are cool and all, and I play EC, but if EC can take dreads with sonic weapons why can't TS dreads take heavy bolters with inferno shots? OR a dreadnought of Khorne with big cutty things or nurgl-ized with plague. When you start coming up with units like this either everyone gets it, or they get something like it, or it becomes a no brainer situation where it doesn't matter since there is only one "real" choice.

These type of restricted and specialized options is what GW wanted to get away from when they went to the newest codex. The options work in a codex devoted to those individual sub-factions but as a single book its burdensome for newbies and opponents.

EC dreds are acceptable, none other IMHO.

MOK dred? the Marine is already flying rodent gak crazy; no difference
1k sons? had to have been pre rubric of arhiman, doubt it would get inferno.. unless it is like a librarian dred; but honestly a 1k sons dred probably wouldn't be using solid artillery.
Nurgle? The idea of rotting mech is just... idk just silly to me.
MOS: sonic weapons totally make sense to me, all im sayin'

Inferno rounds are all about enchanted ammo. You telling me a HB round is any more difficult?

A MoK dread would be something like: any fire frenzy roll is automatically counted as "rage".

For nurgle I was thinking more like spraying it all over the place. Think banewolf chem-channon on a dread.

I understand it so easy to say here's a weapon stick it on. I think those other choices work too, but my main point is why would only noise marines attempt to apply their gifts to their support units. Wouldn't the others? The answer is yes, but once you go down that road its a slippery sloap towards over emphasizing the cults in a list that isn't as much about a whole army of one god or another.

aka_mythos wrote:I think sonic weapons are cool and all, and I play EC, but if EC can take dreads with sonic weapons why can't TS dreads take heavy bolters with inferno shots? OR a dreadnought of Khorne with big cutty things or nurgl-ized with plague. When you start coming up with units like this either everyone gets it, or they get something like it, or it becomes a no brainer situation where it doesn't matter since there is only one "real" choice.

These type of restricted and specialized options is what GW wanted to get away from when they went to the newest codex. The options work in a codex devoted to those individual sub-factions but as a single book its burdensome for newbies and opponents.

Exactly so.

And that is why I suggest that GW will (eventually) follow-through with their plan to split Legions off the current mix-and-match CSM.

When there are separate Chaos books, this becomes a non-issue. Cult Chaos players will get to feel "special" and loved because they finally have their own book, just like BA and BT and DA and SW, even though this comes at the cost of slowing Cult updates down to a 10 year timeframe.

I think if GW does eventually split off cult armies from the rest it will be an edition or two away. After they've developed enough within Chaos Undivided to stand with watered down versions or without the cult units at all.

As far as the "next" book, I'm inclined to say they'll stay away from too many of the cult units. There will be some new ones I imagine, just not as many as allowing cult weapon option upgrades would imply. I think one step to that is bringing in some more undivided characters, ones that touch on the undivided legions, but without making it too legion driven. Take the character driven approach with legion flavor something like this:

"Such-n-such" the Dark Apostle, re-roll reserve rolls for daemons, may begin with a daemon unit on the table
"Blank-ity-blank" the Arch Heretic, cultist count as a scoring unit, cultist may outflank.
"Crushington" The Demolisher, ability to call for off table artillery, master of ordinance style.
"Batman" The Headhunter, Raptors count as a scoring unit and may re-roll for reserve.

Anything more it will suffer the pitfalls of a bloated codex.

Those would be in addition to Huron, Abbadon, Ahriman, Lucius, Typhus, and Kharn. Chuck Fabius in and you have 11 characters, as opposed to the 9 special characters and 2 upgrade characters in the Loyalist Codex. The chaos codex would gain substance, without pulling any tricks the would make GW's loyalist love feelings hurt. It also puts into place characters that can "stand up" and fill the void when Ahriman, Lucius, Typhus, and Kharn inevitably got pulled.

MOT dred i was talking about enchated ammo really is useless with like las/plas

A sonic weapon relative to other option seems to fair the same. It has an assault and heavy profile, but one doesn't even matter on a vehicle. It'd cost more than a lascanon as an upgrade. Would it really be worth all that while?

aka_mythos wrote:I think if GW does eventually split off cult armies from the rest it will be an edition or two away. After they've developed enough within Chaos Undivided to stand with watered down versions or without the cult units at all.

As far as the "next" book, I'm inclined to say they'll stay away from too many of the cult units. There will be some new ones I imagine, just not as many as allowing cult weapon option upgrades would imply. I think one step to that is bringing in some more undivided characters, ones that touch on the undivided legions, but without making it too legion driven. Take the character driven approach with legion flavor something like this:

"Such-n-such" the Dark Apostle, re-roll reserve rolls for daemons, may begin with a daemon unit on the table
"Blank-ity-blank" the Arch Heretic, cultist count as a scoring unit, cultist may outflank.
"Crushington" The Demolisher, ability to call for off table artillery, master of ordinance style.
"Batman" The Headhunter, Raptors count as a scoring unit and may re-roll for reserve.

Anything more it will suffer the pitfalls of a bloated codex.

Those would be in addition to Huron, Abbadon, Ahriman, Lucius, Typhus, and Kharn. Chuck Fabius in and you have 11 characters, as opposed to the 9 special characters and 2 upgrade characters in the Loyalist Codex. The chaos codex would gain substance, without pulling any tricks the would make GW's loyalist love feelings hurt. It also puts into place characters that can "stand up" and fill the void when Ahriman, Lucius, Typhus, and Kharn inevitably got pulled.

You've hit the nail on the head with a thunder hammer. This will more or less fix the chaos dex (from a gameplay and legion perspective) while putting chaos in line with other imperial books without anyone crying cheese at the same time. Basically do the above, rebalance existing point costs and rules, add some extra units and upgrades (such as a LR crusader equivalent, SS/TH termies, cult chosen) and you have an awesome 5th edition Chaos book without spending too much effort.

Strangely enough a new chaos codex wouldn't take long to write as the current one is a good "template". A few add-on rules such as the one mentioned above and some easy rebalancing (such as reducing bikes from 33 to 25 points) and you've got a good codex that would probably last a good while

aka_mythos wrote:I think if GW does eventually split off cult armies from the rest it will be an edition or two away. After they've developed enough within Chaos Undivided to stand with watered down versions or without the cult units at all.

As far as the "next" book, I'm inclined to say they'll stay away from too many of the cult units.

I think one step to that is bringing in some more undivided characters, ones that touch on the undivided legions, but without making it too legion driven.

Those would be in addition to Huron, Abbadon, Ahriman, Lucius, Typhus, and Kharn. Chuck Fabius in and you have 11 characters, as opposed to the 9 special characters and 2 upgrade characters in the Loyalist Codex.

The chaos codex would gain substance, without pulling any tricks the would make GW's loyalist love feelings hurt. It also puts into place characters that can "stand up" and fill the void when Ahriman, Lucius, Typhus, and Kharn inevitably got pulled.

GW could split Legions off at any time, although it'd be least disruptive to do this by releasing detailed Legions at the time of the next Chaos Codex, with expanded generic CSM to follow the year after.

I agree that GW should "save" the Cult Stuff for Legions, rather than confusing things in CSM. Once it goes in, it's hard to remove.

More MoCU characters would be welcome, indeed, bringing balance and playstyle variety.

4 MoCU Legions guys would be in addition to Abby, Horus, & Fabius, for a total of 7. Add a unique Defiler, and a unique Dread, and that's 9, same as SM.

When Ahriman, Lucius, Typhus, and Kharn go, they'll can be joined by Doomrider and a host of other (new, if needed) Chaos Characters, so the Legions book won't feel too thin.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
More MoCU characters would be welcome, indeed, bringing balance and playstyle variety.

4 MoCU Legions guys would be in addition to Abby, Horus, & Fabius, for a total of 7. Add a unique Defiler, and a unique Dread, and that's 9, same as SM.

When Ahriman, Lucius, Typhus, and Kharn go, they'll can be joined by Doomrider and a host of other (new, if needed) Chaos Characters, so the Legions book won't feel too thin.

Maybe even Cypher could come back. Upgrade one chosen squad to be fallen angels.... just saying since you brought Doomrider into this. A unique defiler could maybe be the original Defiler. I think dreads have been done to death with the loyalists, so I can't imagine what concept would be worth while.

When it comes to Fabius in an undivided codex I could imagine his Enhanced Warriors becoming a unit in and unto themselves.

In a cult-legion codex, it'd be a nice addition to see some named daemon princes in addition to the doomrider.

If / when Cypher comes back, he'll have a global effect like a SM SC: All CSM with MoCU gain ATSKNF.

Otherwise, all good.

And yeah, more named Daemon Princes would be nice. Along with a Spawn.

Doombreed would be a cool character to bring out, though he is apparently stonger than the deamon primarchs...


Also! really want to see different weapons and upgrades, less similar than SM. maybe different types of CCW? rending chainaxes back?