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But with only one type of tobacco, it seems.

The fact that games workshop has 8 imperium codexs (5 being space marine and freinds) why cant they have 3 chaos codexs: codex Legions, codex Renegades, and codex Chaos Daemons.
With codex Legions representing the 10 traitor legions
Codex Renegades representing cultists, traitor guard, mutants, and renegade space marine chapters.
and Codex Chaos Daemons representing the hordes of the ruinous powers
any one else with me *waits for standing ovation*

@LoB: the problem is that Legions still covers too much ground between Cult and unaligned.

Lord of battles wrote:The fact that games workshop has 8 imperium codexs (5 being space marine and freinds) why cant they have 3 chaos codexs: codex Legions, codex Renegades, and codex Chaos Daemons.
With codex Legions representing the 10 traitor legions
Codex Renegades representing cultists, traitor guard, mutants, and renegade space marine chapters.
and Codex Chaos Daemons representing the hordes of the ruinous powers
any one else with me *waits for standing ovation*

JohnHwangDD wrote:@LoB: the problem is that Legions still covers too much ground between Cult and unaligned.

Well here my interpretation of a legions book:

Black Legion: csm with access to squads of regular cult marines and generic daemons
World Eaters: cult troops with khornate daemons, machines, and weapons
Thousand Sons: same thing only tzeench (sp)
Death Guard: same thing only nurgle
Emperor's Children: same thing only slaannesh
Word Bearers: frenzied troops, cultists, and generic daemons
Iron Warriors: artillery, obliteraters, heavy weapons
Alpha Legion: cultists, scout, infiltration
Night Lords: fast troops, terror tactic rules (or something along those lines)
Something like that maybe

I still think the biggest problem is fitting all that in a single book. The minimum would be to split it between the big-4 cult legions and the undivided.

The big-4 just need too many specialized units to work.

We can always hope....

Simple Split

C:Chaos Space marines: Word Bearers, Night lords, Iron warriors, Alpha legion

C: Chaos Legions: 1k sons, World Eaters, Death guard, Emperors children

I think GW would have one big problem with a singule book covering the big-4 cult legions. There is no thematic cohesion, its thematic exclusion. You'd have 4 self contained armies with little or no overlap and a ton of exclussivity. Each army would really only have one way to play.

I'm fine with the idea of a book like this, I just don't think GW would be.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@LoB: the problem is that Legions still covers too much ground between Cult and unaligned.

Step 1: Codex with flavourful units, such as Veteran Marines, Possessed that aren't random, Spawn that can be taken as familiars, Lords that don't kill themselves, etc.
Step 2: One of ten armywide rules can be taken. These affect all units in the army, and restrict choices that can be made. One armywide rule allows you to use models following rules from other armywide rules, but they come with a point setback.
Step 3: Create a flavourful unique unit for each of the ten armywide rules. Each unit can only be taken by its repective armywide rule.
Step 4: Create a flavourful unique character for each of the ten armywide rules.

So on par with Blood Angels in terms of interesting new units (because there is no reason for an army trapped in the warp for millenia to be more vanillia than another chapter).

If it's too much for a single codex, release the codex with only the four main legions and their unique unit+character+armywide rule, then release PDF add-ons for the remaining legions.

aka_mythos wrote:You'd have 4 self contained armies with little or no overlap and a ton of exclussivity. Each army would really only have one way to play.

I'm fine with the idea of a book like this, I just don't think GW would be.

As I outlined earlier, you overlap the HQs, Spawn, Rhinos, Drop Pods.

I'd be perfectly happy with it, too.
____

Pika_power wrote:Step 1: Codex with flavourful units, such as Veteran Marines, Possessed that aren't random, Spawn that can be taken as familiars, Lords that don't kill themselves, etc.
Step 2: One of ten armywide rules can be taken. These affect all units in the army, and restrict choices that can be made. One armywide rule allows you to use models following rules from other armywide rules, but they come with a point setback.
Step 3: Create a flavourful unique unit for each of the ten armywide rules. Each unit can only be taken by its repective armywide rule.
Step 4: Create a flavourful unique character for each of the ten armywide rules.

That's fine if GW shrinks the core down, and rips out the crutches in the process:

Legion-unique units:
- BL get Possessed as Troops
- WE replace gLDs with Bloodletters
- EC replace gLDs with Daemonettes
- DG replace gLDs with Plaguebearers
- TS replace gLDs with Horrors
- IW replace Termies with Oblits
- AL gets Cultists
- WB gets Markable gLDs
- NL gets JP Chosen
- RC get Razorbacks

Something like this?

Yeah, that'd work.

I'd be comfortable with CSM not being able to take cult-specific daemons as long as they gain some flavor back.

I think the SM forumal works well enough to at least give soem variety. By taking character xyz, then your army gets this special rule. Kind of like how the oldcodex was. If you were iron warriors you could have 4 heavy supports, but only 1 fast attack. If you were nightlords you could have 4 fast attacks but 1 heavy support. etc.

I don't think it needs to have the infinite amount of options that book gave, but at least some strong choices that allow you to play your army differently and not be handicapped for doing so. Even if each legion just had 1 extra unit thatd be fine (tech priests for IW, cultists for AL, blood slaughterer for WE). One unit that emphasizes the direction of that legion along with a flavor rule or two.

aka_mythos wrote:I think GW would have one big problem with a singule book covering the big-4 cult legions. There is no thematic cohesion, its thematic exclusion. You'd have 4 self contained armies with little or no overlap and a ton of exclussivity. Each army would really only have one way to play.

I'm fine with the idea of a book like this, I just don't think GW would be.

Why not? They did this with Chaos Daemons - daemons from different gods fight in the same army all the time now. Sure, they had to ride roughshod over the old fluff in order to make this happen, but as we all know fluff can be changed to whatever they want it to be in order to justify how they choose to sell their models. I mean, isn't that the whole reason why all of a sudden Chaos doesn't fight as legions anymore, but rather seems to be composed almost exclusively of mixed warbands each of which apparently have a squad for every traitor legion and renegade chapter to turn since the Heresy? So if they want to sell plague marines and Thousand Sons with one codex, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't make up some (admittedly stupid) new fluff about how Death Guard and Thousand Sons have set aside their pre-heresy differences and are now frequent allies. I mean, it's not like they're Necrons and Blood Angels...

@Abby: Technically, they're not DG / TS. They're Plague Marines and Rubric Marines in a warband with multiple loyalties.

JohnHwangDD wrote:As I outlined earlier, you overlap the HQs, Spawn, Rhinos, Drop Pods.

Thats only a little overlap, but lets not forget Landraiders... I think all 4 would have them at their disposal even if they didn't always use them.

I think on some level it'd be appropriate and kinda funny if the big-4 could take basic CSM squads as a generic non-FOC troop units. Much like the standard list allows daemons to be taken. Showing their willingness to use renegade marines as fodder. I like that irony, but realize its unnecessary.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
That's fine if GW shrinks the core down, and rips out the crutches in the process:

Legion-unique units:
- BL get Possessed as Troops
- WE replace gLDs with Bloodletters
- EC replace gLDs with Daemonettes
- DG replace gLDs with Plaguebearers
- TS replace gLDs with Horrors
- IW replace Termies with Oblits
- AL gets Cultists
- WB gets Markable gLDs
- NL gets JP Chosen
- RC get Razorbacks

Something like this?
Yeah, that'd work.

That's pretty good.... one tiny thing. I like the idea of Cultist being available to all legions, but where the Alpha legion ones would actually count as troops and score, while for everyone else they wouldn't. Alternative to that would be to have a unit called "Mutants" that are treated like how Spawn fit into the list. I think mutants could have the cultist profile but roll on the similar table as possessed. While cultists would have more fixed abilities like infiltrating or scout.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Why not? They did this with Chaos Daemons - daemons from different gods fight in the same army all the time now.

True. But that isn't a good codex.

aka_mythos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:overlap the HQs, Spawn, Rhinos, Drop Pods.

Thats only a little overlap, but lets not forget Landraiders... I think all 4 would have them at their disposal even if they didn't always use them.

I think on some level it'd be appropriate and kinda funny if the big-4 could take basic CSM squads as a generic non-FOC troop units.

Doh! Landraiders would fit, too!

Non-Markable CSM? Like Eldar Guardians, even basic CSM are just inherently too valuable to serve as fodder. I understand the desire for volume, but that really challenges the very Legions concept of being uber-Cult with all-Cult CSM *and* all-Cult Daemons, supported by Cult vehicles. I see Legions as Purist and extreme.

aka_mythos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Legion-unique units:
- BL get Possessed as Troops
- WE replace gLDs with Bloodletters
- EC replace gLDs with Daemonettes
- DG replace gLDs with Plaguebearers
- TS replace gLDs with Horrors
- IW replace Termies with Oblits
- AL gets Cultists
- WB gets Markable gLDs
- NL gets JP Chosen
- RC get Razorbacks

I like the idea of Cultist being available to all legions, but where the Alpha legion ones would actually count as troops and score, while for everyone else they wouldn't. Alternative to that would be to have a unit called "Mutants" that are treated like how Spawn fit into the list.

I think mutants could have the cultist profile but roll on the similar table as possessed. While cultists would have more fixed abilities like infiltrating or scout.

I think having broad access to Cultists (even as non-Scoring Troops) overlaps too much with Traitor Guard / LatD, in the same way previous C: CSM have had too much Daemon focus. As my base concept has standalone Daemons and Guard, CSM really should minimize it. Plus, it reinforces the uniqueness of AL.

I agree with your Cultist / Mutant differentiation, although I would prefer to keep them in the LatD book.

Wait a second here. Now why do Chaos have less technology than Space Marines? They were around before the Dark Age, and don't have any qualms about using any and all tech. If anything, they should have ancient, forbidden technology, like the Dreadclaw, or Jetbikes.

Its more the fact that Chaos marines have not had the means of maintaining and repairing the more complex technology since the Heresy.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I think having broad access to Cultists (even as non-Scoring Troops) overlaps too much with Traitor Guard / LatD, in the same way previous C: CSM have had too much Daemon focus. As my base concept has standalone Daemons and Guard, CSM really should minimize it. Plus, it reinforces the uniqueness of AL.

I agree with your Cultist / Mutant differentiation, although I would prefer to keep them in the LatD book.

I was kinda speaking on the assumption that GW might never give us a LatD codex. So just imagine the qualifier "if GW 100% for sure isn't going to give us a LatD codex."

aka_mythos wrote:Its more the fact that Chaos marines have not had the means of maintaining and repairing the more complex technology since the Heresy.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I think having broad access to Cultists (even as non-Scoring Troops) overlaps too much with Traitor Guard / LatD, in the same way previous C: CSM have had too much Daemon focus. As my base concept has standalone Daemons and Guard, CSM really should minimize it. Plus, it reinforces the uniqueness of AL.

I agree with your Cultist / Mutant differentiation, although I would prefer to keep them in the LatD book.

I was kinda speaking on the assumption that GW might never give us a LatD codex. So just imagine the qualifier "if GW 100% for sure isn't going to give us a LatD codex."

Not all legions do at least.. which is kind of BS if you think about it. The only CSM armies that should have low tech resources are renegades, custom chapters, maybe some legions.

Examples against lack of resources:
Black legion: Faildon should be able to requisition whatever he needs
1k sons: repair spells?
Alpha Legion: steal tech from loyalists
Iron Warriors: C'mon here people! they used to be the legion that could use basalisks! Iron warrior controlled worlds have to be veritable forge worlds... and did everyone forget that some admech also turned traitor during the HH?
Word Bearers: look through the fluff; not only are the word bearers the most organized and traditional of the legions but they also have 2 main bases: one in the eye where the primarch is and 1 in the maelstrom where they MANUFACTURE tech/armor/ect.

After reading this thread and giving it some thought, it seems to me that the only reasonable way forward with CSM is to follow the SM methodology and put them into five books, in spite of the problems it would cause for the codex release cycle.

Codex: World Eaters
Codex: Thousand Sons
Codex: Deathguard
Codex: Emperors Children
Codex: Chaos Space Marines

With the Black Legion being the "chosen" legion of Chaos; in the same way as the Ultramarines are the "chosen" loyalist marines.

The definition of the army would/could/should be based on the presense of special characters. For example by including Krieg Acerbus in your army, your focus is Night Lords, and raptors become a troop choice.

I think that's what would make CSMs fun again for all the fans, whether cult lovers or undivided; and would give plenty of scope for new units and things for GW to release and get their hands on our precious shinys.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Abby: Technically, they're not DG / TS. They're Plague Marines and Rubric Marines in a warband with multiple loyalties.

I was speaking in terms of a hypothetical Chaos legions codex covering the Big Four. Yes, in the current CSM codex tehy iz warbanz.

aka_mythos wrote:I was kinda speaking on the assumption that GW might never give us a LatD codex. So just imagine the qualifier "if GW 100% for sure isn't going to give us a LatD codex."

GW will never do a LatD codex. They were never going to do a Chaos legions codex either. When they cut the Big Four down from whole armies to single unit entries it was just part of the streamlining process wherein Chaos went from being 9 types of legion to 1 type of warband. They wanted the CSM codex to be basically Codex: Black Legion and that left no room for the Big Four (or the other legions) to remain as their own armies. They refocused the fluff to de-emphasize the legions as separate fighting forces and recast them as elements in mixed warbands. Hey kids, tired of painting all your CSM black? Why not throw in a squad of Night Lords? They fight for the Black Legion too! (Buy more Citadel paints!)

Jervis made some remarks about how it would be nice to do a legions codex to give the Big Four back some of what they had lost (namely their entire armies), and some people thought this meant a legions codex was in the works, but that was all just pie-in-the-sky BS. Of course the really galling part was when they reversed course just in time for Codex: Space Marines to have options out the wazoo.

IronfrontAlex wrote:
Not all legions do at least.. which is kind of BS if you think about it. The only CSM armies that should have low tech resources are renegades, custom chapters, maybe some legions.

Examples against lack of resources:
Black legion: Faildon should be able to requisition whatever he needs
1k sons: repair spells?
Alpha Legion: steal tech from loyalists
Iron Warriors: C'mon here people! they used to be the legion that could use basalisks! Iron warrior controlled worlds have to be veritable forge worlds... and did everyone forget that some admech also turned traitor during the HH?
Word Bearers: look through the fluff; not only are the word bearers the most organized and traditional of the legions but they also have 2 main bases: one in the eye where the primarch is and 1 in the maelstrom where they MANUFACTURE tech/armor/ect.

This one reason I'm a strong advocate of of daemon engines. They fit the limited technology aspect of chaos and show why the chaos legions might not necessarily care if a stolen basilisk broke or bother building any. This is purely my interpretation, but I believe chaos doesn't use all the imperium's stuff because they don't think they need to. If you can make a Defiler, why wouldn't those same dark rituals be used to bond daemons to other things. On some level, daemons are their unique technology that they have chosen in favor of the Imperiums. I can imagine that some of the Imperium's stuff chaos would like on occaison to use but lack the STC's or the warped STC's facilities have difficulty producing that equipment.

As far as renegade looting the Imperiums equipment. I'm sure it happens a lot but the scale to which it would have to occur so that a vehicle or weapon be tossed into the CSM codex would be a bit much. Modern weapons have to be cleaned after use, I'm sure its true of the ancient 40k weapons. Chaos has every reason to have plasma cannons in their havoc squads, they don't despite there being a picture of an infantry portable one in the book.

I'll point out one last thing. Back in 2nd edition GW had rules in the Chaos Codex to cover the sort of things you want. Chaos was allowed to take any imperial vehicle or weapon not in the chaos codex for 1/3 more points. That would obviously fly in the face of how GW does things now, but its a possible solution. It was also one reason GW never bothered adding things to Chaos at that time, they just assumed anything they gave Imperium would find its way to chaos.

I don't buy the non-working tech deal. If something stops working, stick a stronger Daemon in it. Holding a tank together via psychic power works for Orks, there is no reason the same concept can't be applied to Chaos on an individual basis.

Actually, only the more complex tech is powered by the Ork gestalt psychic field. One does not need to be an Ork to use their trukks, buggies, shootaz, and so on. Though you might need it to use their choppaz. Very complex and versatile technology, there.

Pika_power wrote:I don't buy the non-working tech deal. If something stops working, stick a stronger Daemon in it. Holding a tank together via psychic power works for Orks, there is no reason the same concept can't be applied to Chaos on an individual basis.

Well we don't know how daemon engines work. If you bound a daemon to a vehicle, would you use a previously damaged one that had to welded back together or a more structurally sure one thats less likely to let the daemon break out.

I'm just giving a more logical reason for why Chaos wouldn't use imperial vehicles in a wide spread way.

Orks use their looted vehicles because they think their stuff is better. Chaos would either have a similar rational or just not have it available. The way chaos makes tech work probably varies a bit. Chaos would probably have some sense of hubris, "I don't need that pathetic loyalist wreck!"

Chaos doesn't have sophisticated supply lines unlike the imperium, if something breaks down if a particular warband has no way to fix it they'd have to abandon it. While a thousand son Sorcerer maybe able to repair a tank, not every legion has access to sorcerers and not every sorcerer would necessarily be able to. That said even for a powerful sorcerer it could be a matter of divided attention he can either focus his will on keeping that tank working or his rubric marines, not necessarily both, unless he's giving up his option of using powers in a battle. This is another reason why it could be unappealing to chaos.