Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

ShumaGorath wrote "Englands economy isn't exactly doing well in the eurozone.. Not sure where this level of smugness is coming from. You're doing worse than most EU states."


It's not smugness. I am well aware how poorly the economy is, given that I live in the country. It is merely a personal view and an observation. Remember a lot of British people do not see the EU as a good thing. There is an animosity in Britain against the EU, and a wide spread feeling by some, not all, that Britain has lost its autonomy. As stated earlier, the EU started on the basis of a free trade agreement, now however I feel each nation is expected to serve two masters. The point I was trying to make, however ineloquently, was that in my opinion coalitions along the lines of the EU are at present not the outstanding successes they were thought to be.

ID just like to say that I believe welfare is a good system, designed to help those in need. I'm married, have a 16 month old. If I lose my job I would have to go on welfare till I found another. It is a good system that assists when you're down and out, especially in a country where jobs are still at a premium.

Is it a program that gets abused? Sure it is. Does that mean we should get rid of it? Of course not. The people that abuse need to be dealt with by the law. I hate that just as much as anyone else. They should pay a very steep fine and have their welfare checks taken away.

But I'm seeing alot of negativity about this program on this forum. Guitardian especially. So you know someone abuses welfare? Report it or stay out of it. Wanting to get rid of a program simply because you know someone that uses it so horribly doesn't make alot of sense to me at all. And taxes? Jesus Christ people get over the tax thing. In my dealings with individuals, the same people who whine about all their hard-earned money being taxed are the same people who in the very next sentence complain about not having enough policemen and teachers.

So. Complain about welfare, taxes, gun rights, and immigration all you want. Vote republican next election so we can poor the rest of this failing economy down the drain. Then watch as we go through a second depression. But hey, at Least you have your gun and your bible.

IGLannister wrote:
So. Complain about welfare, taxes, gun rights, and immigration all you want. Vote republican next election so we can poor the rest of this failing economy down the drain. Then watch as we go through a second depression. But hey, at Least you have your gun and your bible.

(looks at the stock market)
Oh I think your president is doing that just fine thanks.

Yeah, it has nothing to do with the LOSER you supported the last 8 years does it?

Drones are truly the NeoCons best friends.
(edited by Frazzled as the replaced word is not appropriate for Dakka)

IGLannister wrote:Yeah, it has nothing to do with the LOSER you supported the last 8 years does it?

Drones are truly the NeoCons best friends.

First recession linked to policies of Congress (controlled by Dems since 2006) and previous administration.
But you turkeys own this one.

Obama, single handedly destroying the Democratic Party from the inside out since 2006.

Loser then. Apologies.

Fateweaver wrote:^

Like they do now Shivan? LOL.

I think Mn should annex Manitoba that way whenever I want to vacation into Canada I won't need a passport. Hell, we'll even let you keep claiming it as part of Canada though we won't allow the ridiculous taxes you currently pay in that province and of course our state gun laws will naturally take precedence in Manitoba.

You don't want Manitoba. Trust me, there is NOTHING there. Unless you're going for the many feet of snow and the endless wheat fields.

What you want is Quebec. Go ahead, take her. Hell, we'll even pay YOU

They don't wanna be here anyway, might as well give em' what they want.

Frazzled wrote:

IGLannister wrote:
So. Complain about welfare, taxes, gun rights, and immigration all you want. Vote republican next election so we can poor the rest of this failing economy down the drain. Then watch as we go through a second depression. But hey, at Least you have your gun and your bible.

(looks at the stock market)
Oh I think your president is doing that just fine thanks.

A presidents effect on the economy is based in the confidence he can instill and his ability to put the right people in the right jobs. Obamas effect at this point is really little more than the power of his words and the effectiveness of a stimulus that isn't finished being handed out yet. It's certainly too early to tell how his policies are effecting the economy in the long run and many of his decisions (the stimulus and the fallout from the buyouts especially) were not really ever his to make. On the other hand it's fairly clear that bush pushed for a deregulatory atmosphere during his years and placed most of his 'economic confidence' on the exact bubbles that saw our economy destroyed. It took six years for people to realize just how destructive the Raegan era policies bush advocated were and it's likely going to take a similar amount of time for an appreciable review of Obamas policies.

Obama, single handedly destroying the Democratic Party from the inside out since 2006.

Oh wait, you don't join discussions for the purpose of realistic and intelligent conversation!

IGLannister wrote:Loser then. Apologies.

No harm no foul.

Sure it is. These things always take time to come to fruition. But people that rag on Obama for this mess are the same types of people that think bush was sent from on high to deliver this nation of sinners, and not the man who is responsible for allowing his party to rot this country from the inside out. We all know bush was a total failure, yet fine gentlemen like frazzle here are willing to shovel it all off on someone else.

Disingenuous at the very least.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

IGLannister wrote:
So. Complain about welfare, taxes, gun rights, and immigration all you want. Vote republican next election so we can poor the rest of this failing economy down the drain. Then watch as we go through a second depression. But hey, at Least you have your gun and your bible.

(looks at the stock market)
Oh I think your president is doing that just fine thanks.

A presidents effect on the economy is based in the confidence he can instill and his ability to put the right people in the right jobs. Obamas effect at this point is really little more than the power of his words and the effectiveness of a stimulus that isn't finished being handed out yet. It's certainly too early to tell how his policies are effecting the economy in the long run and many of his decisions (the stimulus and the fallout from the buyouts especially) were not really ever his to make. On the other hand it's fairly clear that bush pushed for a deregulatory atmosphere during his years and placed most of his 'economic confidence' on the exact bubbles that saw our economy destroyed. It took six years for people to realize just how destructive the Raegan era policies bush advocated were and it's likely going to take a similar amount of time for an appreciable review of Obamas policies.

Obama, single handedly destroying the Democratic Party from the inside out since 2006.

Oh wait, you don't join discussions for the purpose of realistic and intelligent conversation!

BS. We're more than halfway through year II of the Adminstration. Every other time (except when FDR tried the same stunt) the economy started improving by now, including Kennedy's. the business community has no confidence in the current adminstration at this point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

IGLannister wrote:Sure it is. These things always take time to come to fruition. But people that rag on Obama for this mess are the same types of people that think bush was sent from on high to deliver this nation of sinners, and not the man who is responsible for allowing his party to rot this country from the inside out. We all know bush was a total failure, yet fine gentlemen like frazzle here are willing to shovel it all off on someone else.

Disingenuous at the very least.

it. I said the first recession resulted form the policies of the previous Adminstration and Congress. their low approvals were justly deserved.

This one is on Obama's neck.

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

IGLannister wrote:
So. Complain about welfare, taxes, gun rights, and immigration all you want. Vote republican next election so we can poor the rest of this failing economy down the drain. Then watch as we go through a second depression. But hey, at Least you have your gun and your bible.

(looks at the stock market)
Oh I think your president is doing that just fine thanks.

A presidents effect on the economy is based in the confidence he can instill and his ability to put the right people in the right jobs. Obamas effect at this point is really little more than the power of his words and the effectiveness of a stimulus that isn't finished being handed out yet. It's certainly too early to tell how his policies are effecting the economy in the long run and many of his decisions (the stimulus and the fallout from the buyouts especially) were not really ever his to make. On the other hand it's fairly clear that bush pushed for a deregulatory atmosphere during his years and placed most of his 'economic confidence' on the exact bubbles that saw our economy destroyed. It took six years for people to realize just how destructive the Raegan era policies bush advocated were and it's likely going to take a similar amount of time for an appreciable review of Obamas policies.

Obama, single handedly destroying the Democratic Party from the inside out since 2006.

Oh wait, you don't join discussions for the purpose of realistic and intelligent conversation!

BS. We're more than halfway through year II of the Adminstration. Every other time (except when FDR tried the same stunt) the economy started improving by now, including Kennedy's. the business community has no confidence in the current adminstration at this point.

And it had incredible confidence in the bush administration. It's as if it has no fething idea what it's actually doing and can't make informed decisions concerning the future! Any economic theory that would lend large scale business and markets as having the trait of farsightedness or prescience of thought or action is abjectly wrong and historically daft. Also, it would appear that the economy is recovering, but hey lets not let reality cloud your "The stimulus won't work, oh the economies getting better the stimulus clearly has nothing to do with that" outlook. If you couldn't make ill informed and ranty posts about the economic superiority of policies you have never advocated or explained this forum would be a much less interesting place.

Takes longer than two years to do the following:

Deal with Iraq
Deal with Afghanistan
Assemble a regulatory committee for the stock market
Overhaul Americas ruined image
Deal with a huge catastrophy in the Gulf
Stabilize the economy

Bush came into office with none of these problems, and proceeded to create most of them. And just to make things extra spicy, we have the republicans in congress who have vowed to lock down the passing of any legislation because their feelings were hurt over healthcare. Gimme a break.

IGLannister wrote:Takes longer than two years to do the following:

Deal with Iraq
Deal with Afghanistan
Assemble a regulatory committee for the stock market
Overhaul Americas ruined image
Deal with a huge catastrophy in the Gulf
Stabilize the economy

Bush came into office with none of these problems, and proceeded to create most of them.

Technically every one of those could be accomplished in less than two years as there is no actual required step by step process for the successful completion of any of them. It took like three weeks to overhaul americas ruined image (in the eyes of europeans).

I pledge allegiance.

To the flag.

Of the United States of America. And Mexico. And Canada. And maybe even Alaska, too.

malfred wrote:I pledge allegiance.

To the flag.

Of the United States of America. And Mexico. And Canada. And maybe even Alaska, too.

The American Empire has a nice ring too it.

Empire, might be pushing it atleast in this day and age.

United Nations of America? That sounds sweet.

Empires always fall from the inside. Coincidence? I think not. Thanks, George.

ShumaGorath wrote:

And it had incredible confidence in the bush administration. It's as if it has no fething idea what it's actually doing and can't make informed decisions concerning the future! Any economic theory that would lend large scale business and markets as having the trait of farsightedness or prescience of thought or action is abjectly wrong and historically daft.

You have no argument from me.

Also, it would appear that the economy is recovering, but hey lets not let reality cloud your "The stimulus won't work, oh the economies getting better the stimulus clearly has nothing to do with that" outlook. If you couldn't make ill informed and ranty posts about the economic superiority of policies you have never advocated or explained this forum would be a much less interesting place.

Now you have an argument. Indicators have shifted to 2008 levels through the month. There was effectively no private hiring in May. The markets have tanked. Deficit spending is the highest in the history of mankind. Certain debt markets have dried up over the last 30 days.

And yes frazzle, those things shouldn't take too long to accomplish, if you have two functioning parties. We don't. We have one party that tries to work with the other, while the other is throwing a hussy fit and sayin, "Waaaaaah, no we won't work with you, waaaaah!"

so...?

malfred wrote:I pledge allegiance.

To the flag.

Of the United States of America. And Mexico. And Canada. And maybe even Alaska, too.

But not Leichtenstein. Once the Explosive Space Modulator is perfected their dark reign will end.

And I feel the need to say to you, frazzle, that I hope the Cowboys win the superbowl. So charade to you.

I don't think you can call it the 'last recession' as opposed to 'this one', as it is a cycle that feeds itself. There isn't a stated start time and end time for economic screwups. Blaming it on Obama is just silly. Blame banks and multinationals, don't blame the guy who's just stuck with an inherited mess. I may not agree with many of his policies but at least he's trying, instead of feeding into it with cronyism. (Hi uncle Cheney! Hi Enron! Hi Haliburton! Hi real estate fiends!Thanks so fething much you schmucks!). Meanwhile he also is tasked to improve foreign relations, fight 2 wars he didn't start, and be the first white president. Oh wait no he's only half white. Give the guy a break. That's a lot on his plate. And you know what the hicks will be saying when he fails out of office? "See I told you it was them dern Nword's fault this whole place is fethed up..." conveniently forgetting the warmonger who proceeded him. The general public has extremely short political attention spans, and conveniently selective memories.

Now you have an argument. Indicators have shifted to 2008 levels through the month. There was effectively no private hiring in May. The markets have tanked. Deficit spending is the highest in the history of mankind. Certain debt markets have dried up over the last 30 days.

Yeah, it was a bad month. Job gains 30k under expectations and a lot of that was census hiring. There were still gains though, and any expectation of a rapid recovery should have been dashed when everyone said slow and painful recovery like 300 times a second in 09.

As an aside if deficit spending wasn't at it's highest in the history of mankind I would be confused considering we have a larger population and more money than any time previously in history. Economic indicators like that aren't really useful when taken in that kind of context. It's like saying more people are dying than in any time before in history. True. Also totally unhelpful and contextless.

IGLannister wrote:And yes frazzle, those things shouldn't take too long to accomplish, if you have two functioning parties. We don't. We have one party that tries to work with the other, while the other is throwing a hussy fit and sayin, "Waaaaaah, no we won't work with you, waaaaah!"

so...?

Excuses are like donkey-caves everybody got one. Democrats had historic majorities in both houses + the Presidency. You achieved the Democratic boondoggle spending, tax and spend, nationalizing the domestic auto industry, and Obamacare. You scared all of business out of hiring due to your shifting tax plans. You just banned drilling in the Gulf (hello $4 - $5 gas). 2 years and nothing to actually help the economy on a long term or short term basis.

IGLannister wrote:And yes frazzle, those things shouldn't take too long to accomplish, if you have two functioning parties. We don't. We have one party that tries to work with the other, while the other is throwing a hussy fit and sayin, "Waaaaaah, no we won't work with you, waaaaah!"

so...?

I responded to you, not frazzled. You should pay more attention.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Now you have an argument. Indicators have shifted to 2008 levels through the month. There was effectively no private hiring in May. The markets have tanked. Deficit spending is the highest in the history of mankind. Certain debt markets have dried up over the last 30 days.

Yeah, it was a bad month. Job gains 30k under expectations and a lot of that was census hiring. There were still gains though, and any expectation of a rapid recovery should have been dashed when everyone said slow and painful recovery like 300 times a second in 09.

As an aside if deficit spending wasn't at it's highest in the history of mankind I would be confused considering we have a larger population and more money than any time previously in history. Economic indicators like that aren't really useful when taken in that kind of context. It's like saying more people are dying than in any time before in history. True. Also totally unhelpful and contextless.

More than 30M more like 250M off. eleminate the census and no effective hiring.

Every other recession upturn wasn't slow and painful though. Only during FDR's time with his joyous spending program that hiccupped a (surprise) double dip depression. Sounds familiar.

Frazzled wrote:

IGLannister wrote:And yes frazzle, those things shouldn't take too long to accomplish, if you have two functioning parties. We don't. We have one party that tries to work with the other, while the other is throwing a hussy fit and sayin, "Waaaaaah, no we won't work with you, waaaaah!"

so...?

Excuses are like donkey-caves everybody got one. Democrats had historic majorities in both houses + the Presidency. You achieved the Democratic boondoggle spending, tax and spend, nationalizing the domestic auto industry, and Obamacare. You scared all of business out of hiring due to your shifting tax plans. You just banned drilling in the Gulf (hello $4 - $5 gas). 2 years and nothing to actually help the economy on a long term or short term basis.

The auto industry is being sold back, and you guys nationalized the banking industry so don't pull that gak. Stop being a child. As for scaring out business hiring, I think you've managed to pull that one straight out of your ass. As for banning gulf drilling, the feth does that have to do with raising gas to five dollars? The amount of oil being pulled from the gulf was and is far below the amount that would be required for that kind of effect. Are you usually this daft or are you taking this as a special occasion because you're being trolled by Glannisoap?

As for the majorities, they don't matter particularly much against a minority party as unified and childish as the republican party and and we had to nuke the fillibuster just to healthcare through. To act like we just squabbled it all away is about as childish as a response as I would expect at this point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Now you have an argument. Indicators have shifted to 2008 levels through the month. There was effectively no private hiring in May. The markets have tanked. Deficit spending is the highest in the history of mankind. Certain debt markets have dried up over the last 30 days.

Yeah, it was a bad month. Job gains 30k under expectations and a lot of that was census hiring. There were still gains though, and any expectation of a rapid recovery should have been dashed when everyone said slow and painful recovery like 300 times a second in 09.

As an aside if deficit spending wasn't at it's highest in the history of mankind I would be confused considering we have a larger population and more money than any time previously in history. Economic indicators like that aren't really useful when taken in that kind of context. It's like saying more people are dying than in any time before in history. True. Also totally unhelpful and contextless.

More than 30M more like 250M off. eleminate the census and no effective hiring.

Every other recession upturn wasn't slow and painful though. Only during FDR's time with his joyous spending program that hiccupped a (surprise) double dip depression. Sounds familiar.

Yeah, it's as if the recovery is proportional to the fall. Are you being this obtuse and ignorant on purpose?

My bad Gorath. My response won't change though. Just insert your name where frazzled name is, and it should work out ok.

Seriously though, my mistake. I'll keep a closer eye.

And how am I trolling? It's a debate. You're the one calling people daft around here. Relax bro.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

IGLannister wrote:And yes frazzle, those things shouldn't take too long to accomplish, if you have two functioning parties. We don't. We have one party that tries to work with the other, while the other is throwing a hussy fit and sayin, "Waaaaaah, no we won't work with you, waaaaah!"

so...?

Excuses are like donkey-caves everybody got one. Democrats had historic majorities in both houses + the Presidency. You achieved the Democratic boondoggle spending, tax and spend, nationalizing the domestic auto industry, and Obamacare. You scared all of business out of hiring due to your shifting tax plans. You just banned drilling in the Gulf (hello $4 - $5 gas). 2 years and nothing to actually help the economy on a long term or short term basis.

The auto industry is being sold back, and you guys nationalized the banking industry so don't pull that gak. Stop being a child. As for scaring out business hiring, I think you've managed to pull that one straight out of your ass. As for banning gulf drilling, the feth does that have to do with raising gas to five dollars? The amount of oil being pulled from the gulf was and is far below the amount that would be required for that kind of effect. Are you usually this daft or are you taking this as a special occasion because you're being trolled by Glannisoap?

As for the majorities, they don't matter particularly much against a minority party as unified and childish as the republican party and and we had to nuke the fillibuster to healthcare through. To act like we just squabbled it all away is about as childish as a response as I would expect at this point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Now you have an argument. Indicators have shifted to 2008 levels through the month. There was effectively no private hiring in May. The markets have tanked. Deficit spending is the highest in the history of mankind. Certain debt markets have dried up over the last 30 days.

Yeah, it was a bad month. Job gains 30k under expectations and a lot of that was census hiring. There were still gains though, and any expectation of a rapid recovery should have been dashed when everyone said slow and painful recovery like 300 times a second in 09.

As an aside if deficit spending wasn't at it's highest in the history of mankind I would be confused considering we have a larger population and more money than any time previously in history. Economic indicators like that aren't really useful when taken in that kind of context. It's like saying more people are dying than in any time before in history. True. Also totally unhelpful and contextless.

More than 30M more like 250M off. eleminate the census and no effective hiring.

Every other recession upturn wasn't slow and painful though. Only during FDR's time with his joyous spending program that hiccupped a (surprise) double dip depression. Sounds familiar.

Yeah, it's as if the recovery is proportional to the fall. Are you being this obtuse and ignorant on purpose?

The fact you don't understand the relationship between drilling and gasoline prices (or natural gas prices for that matter) is staggering. I..don't know what to say other than macroeconmics courses are amzingly helpful and really should be required in primary education.