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Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

IGLannister wrote:And yes frazzle, those things shouldn't take too long to accomplish, if you have two functioning parties. We don't. We have one party that tries to work with the other, while the other is throwing a hussy fit and sayin, "Waaaaaah, no we won't work with you, waaaaah!"

so...?

Excuses are like donkey-caves everybody got one. Democrats had historic majorities in both houses + the Presidency. You achieved the Democratic boondoggle spending, tax and spend, nationalizing the domestic auto industry, and Obamacare. You scared all of business out of hiring due to your shifting tax plans. You just banned drilling in the Gulf (hello $4 - $5 gas). 2 years and nothing to actually help the economy on a long term or short term basis.

The auto industry is being sold back, and you guys nationalized the banking industry so don't pull that gak. Stop being a child. As for scaring out business hiring, I think you've managed to pull that one straight out of your ass. As for banning gulf drilling, the feth does that have to do with raising gas to five dollars? The amount of oil being pulled from the gulf was and is far below the amount that would be required for that kind of effect. Are you usually this daft or are you taking this as a special occasion because you're being trolled by Glannisoap?

As for the majorities, they don't matter particularly much against a minority party as unified and childish as the republican party and and we had to nuke the fillibuster to healthcare through. To act like we just squabbled it all away is about as childish as a response as I would expect at this point.


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Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Now you have an argument. Indicators have shifted to 2008 levels through the month. There was effectively no private hiring in May. The markets have tanked. Deficit spending is the highest in the history of mankind. Certain debt markets have dried up over the last 30 days.

Yeah, it was a bad month. Job gains 30k under expectations and a lot of that was census hiring. There were still gains though, and any expectation of a rapid recovery should have been dashed when everyone said slow and painful recovery like 300 times a second in 09.

As an aside if deficit spending wasn't at it's highest in the history of mankind I would be confused considering we have a larger population and more money than any time previously in history. Economic indicators like that aren't really useful when taken in that kind of context. It's like saying more people are dying than in any time before in history. True. Also totally unhelpful and contextless.

More than 30M more like 250M off. eleminate the census and no effective hiring.

Every other recession upturn wasn't slow and painful though. Only during FDR's time with his joyous spending program that hiccupped a (surprise) double dip depression. Sounds familiar.

Yeah, it's as if the recovery is proportional to the fall. Are you being this obtuse and ignorant on purpose?

The fact you don't understand the relationship between drilling and gasoline prices (or natural gas prices for that matter) is staggering. I..don't know what to say other than macroeconmics courses are amzingly helpful and really should be required in primary education.

The fact that you lack basic knowledge of scale and mathematics is a bit worse don't you think? To the point where your inability to count above 'DRILL BABY DRILL' has impaired your ability to accurately assess the amount of oil that was and will be drilled in the gulf contrasting against how much oil we actually use as a nation.


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IGLannister wrote:My bad Gorath. My response won't change though. Just insert your name where frazzled name is, and it should work out ok.

Seriously though, my mistake. I'll keep a closer eye.

And how am I trolling? It's a debate. You're the one calling people daft around here. Relax bro.

You're probably going to want more intelligible and reasoned responses if you're going to try and defend those points. I'm harder to debate than frazzled, who is apparently the debate equivalent of one of those coin operated gypsies that tells your fortune in the front of a 1960s theatre.

ShumaGorath wrote: I'm harder to debate than frazzled, who is apparently the debate equivalent of one of those coin operated gypsies that tells your fortune in the front of a 1960s theatre.

Ok, then here we go.

I take exception to being called a troll. At most, I've called frazzled disingenous and insulted the former presidents intelligence. I find it to be somewhat odd that a person who is arguing basically the same point as myself would accuse me of trolling, while in numerous posts questions the intelligence of the mod by calling him "daft" which, last I knew, was the same as calling someone mildly mentally deficient.

Furthermore, lol at the coin fed gypsy statement.

IGLannister wrote:Ok, then here we go.

I take exception to being called a troll. At most, I've called frazzled disingenous and insulted the former presidents intelligence. I find it to be somewhat odd that a person who is arguing basically the same point as myself would accuse me of trolling, while in numerous posts questions the intelligence of the mod by calling him "daft" which, last I knew, was the same as calling someone mildly mentally deficient.

Furthermore, lol at the coin fed gypsy statement.

You could visit your points in a more factual or well explained manner without resorting to calling presidents names. slow as a derogatory term is little different then gay in how it insults people. Bush wasn't slowed, and to imply his incapability (a level of incapability you didn't actually really address) is due to some form of mental disability can often times be insulting to people that suffer from those disabilities. Daft as per the dictionary does not mean the same thing as slowed, its mostly a stand in for foolish or ignorant.

Lennysmash wrote:KK you are correct it has never been 'bailed out' yet it has recieved funding from several sources to 'bolster' it.

That's a different thing, isn't it.

My worry is that when people don't get facts correct they make themselves look ignorant and stupid, which is a bad position to adopt in argument.

IGLannister wrote:Ok, then here we go.

I take exception to being called a troll. At most, I've called frazzled disingenous and insulted the former presidents intelligence. I find it to be somewhat odd that a person who is arguing basically the same point as myself would accuse me of trolling, while in numerous posts questions the intelligence of the mod by calling him "daft" which, last I knew, was the same as calling someone mildly mentally deficient.

Furthermore, lol at the coin fed gypsy statement.

Wait, who called you a troll?
I liked the gypsy statement myself. If I still had access to photbucket at work I'd have to reply in kind due to its awesomenessness.

Frazzled wrote:

IGLannister wrote:Ok, then here we go.

I take exception to being called a troll. At most, I've called frazzled disingenous and insulted the former presidents intelligence. I find it to be somewhat odd that a person who is arguing basically the same point as myself would accuse me of trolling, while in numerous posts questions the intelligence of the mod by calling him "daft" which, last I knew, was the same as calling someone mildly mentally deficient.

Furthermore, lol at the coin fed gypsy statement.

Wait, who called you a troll?
I liked the gypsy statement myself. If I still had access to photbucket at work I'd have to reply in kind due to its awesomenessness.

I made mention of 'glannisoap' trolling you in an earlier post.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

IGLannister wrote:Ok, then here we go.

I take exception to being called a troll. At most, I've called frazzled disingenous and insulted the former presidents intelligence. I find it to be somewhat odd that a person who is arguing basically the same point as myself would accuse me of trolling, while in numerous posts questions the intelligence of the mod by calling him "daft" which, last I knew, was the same as calling someone mildly mentally deficient.

Furthermore, lol at the coin fed gypsy statement.

Wait, who called you a troll?
I liked the gypsy statement myself. If I still had access to photbucket at work I'd have to reply in kind due to its awesomenessness.

I made mention of 'glannisoap' trolling you in an earlier post.

well then, don't do that!

Even getting my name wrong. I never insulted anyone, and if what I said was construed as such, I detailed it above. You, however, have not. So I stand by my case as is.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Yeah, it's as if the recovery is proportional to the fall. Are you being this obtuse and ignorant on purpose?

Every depression in American history has been closely followed a recession. Two of these depressions (1807-1810 and 1815-1821) did not feature large amounts of government spending.

The relationship between the severity of a recession, and government policy is more complicated than "spending is bad, and tax breaks are good." I assume that Fraz knows this, and is simply being obtuse for the sake of being obtuse.

IGLannister wrote:Even getting my name wrong. I never insulted anyone, and if what I said was construed as such, I detailed it above. You, however, have not. So I stand by my case as is.

What about president Bush?

Anyone on this forum. I've already said I insulted bush. Read between the lines.

ShumaGorath wrote:
The fact that you lack basic knowledge of scale and mathematics is a bit worse don't you think? To the point where your inability to count above 'DRILL BABY DRILL' has impaired your ability to accurately assess the amount of oil that was and will be drilled in the gulf contrasting against how much oil we actually use as a nation.

Its not even blanket ban on all drilling in the gulf, only a moratorium on the issuance of permits to drill new deep water wells in the gulf.

Source.

Gypsies you say!?

noooo it doesnt work

>=(

dogma wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
The fact that you lack basic knowledge of scale and mathematics is a bit worse don't you think? To the point where your inability to count above 'DRILL BABY DRILL' has impaired your ability to accurately assess the amount of oil that was and will be drilled in the gulf contrasting against how much oil we actually use as a nation.

Its not even blanket ban on all drilling in the gulf, only a moratorium on the issuance of permits to drill new deep water wells in the gulf.

Source.

Thats incorrect. As of yesterday ALL drilling, care of a statement sent to us from the MMS. Thanks for playing do not pass go do not collect $200.


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AP News Break: Feds halt new drilling in Gulf amid criticism for lifting shallow-water ban
Published June 03, 2010
| Associated Press
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Obama administration is blocking all new offshore drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, a day after regulators approved a new permit for drilling in shallow water.
An e-mail Thursday from the Gulf Coast office of the Minerals Management Service says that "until further notice" no new drilling is being allowed in the Gulf, no matter the water depth. A copy of the e-mail was obtained by The Associated Press.
The announcement comes a day after the minerals agency, which oversees offshore drilling, granted a new drilling permit for a site about 50 miles off the Louisiana coast, 115 feet below the ocean surface. Environmental groups accused the administration of misleading the public by allowing work to resume in waters up to 500 feet deep while maintaining a moratorium on deepwater drilling.
Kendra Barkoff, a spokeswoman for Interior Secretary Ken Salazar, denied that the administration was placing a hold on shallow-water drilling.
"There is a six-month moratorium on deepwater drilling," Barkoff said in an e-mail Thursday. "Shallow-water drilling may continue as long as oil and gas operations satisfy the environmental and safety requirements Secretary Salazar outlined in his report to the president and have exploration plans that meet those requirements. There is no moratorium on shallow water drilling."
Bob Abbey, the acting director of the Minerals Management Service, announced further restrictions for offshore drilling on Wednesday night.
Abbey, who took over the minerals agency last week after the forced resignation of its previous director Elizabeth Birnbaum, said operators will be required to submit additional information about potential risks and safety considerations before being allowed to drill. The rule applies even to those plans that have already been approved or received a waiver exempting them from detailed environmental scrutiny, Abbey said.
The new information must be submitted before any drilling of new wells begins, Abbey said, adding that the rule should ensure that tighter safety standards and better consideration of risks are incorporated into drilling plans.
The administration will establish separate requirements for deep water and shallow water exploration, Abbey said.
In a recent letter, Gulf Coast senators urged President Barack Obama to allow shallow-water drilling to continue, arguing that it is far safer than deepwater exploration. The senators said shutting down the roughly 60 shallow-water rigs in the Gulf could cost some $135 million in revenues and affect at least 5,000 jobs.

Truly this is "le bummeur" as the French might say.

..homophobe..!

*reports*

Frazzled wrote:
Thats incorrect. As of yesterday ALL drilling, care of a statement sent to us from the MMS. Thanks for playing do not pass go do not collect $200.

That's false, according to your own article.

Frazzled wrote:
AP News Break: Feds halt new drilling in Gulf amid criticism for lifting shallow-water ban
Published June 03, 2010
| Associated Press
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Obama administration is blocking all new offshore drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, a day after regulators approved a new permit for drilling in shallow water.
An e-mail Thursday from the Gulf Coast office of the Minerals Management Service says that "until further notice" no new drilling is being allowed in the Gulf, no matter the water depth. A copy of the e-mail was obtained by The Associated Press.

So not all drilling, only new drilling.

Additionally, given the following quote, it seems that there is at least some degree of confusion (possibly intentional misdirection) in either the AP, the government, or both.

Frazzled wrote:
Kendra Barkoff, a spokeswoman for Interior Secretary Ken Salazar, denied that the administration was placing a hold on shallow-water drilling.
"There is a six-month moratorium on deepwater drilling," Barkoff said in an e-mail Thursday. "Shallow-water drilling may continue as long as oil and gas operations satisfy the environmental and safety requirements Secretary Salazar outlined in his report to the president and have exploration plans that meet those requirements. There is no moratorium on shallow water drilling."

It does seem that MMS has revoked the permits that were granted on Wednesday, which lends credence to a combination of confusion and intentional misdirection.

My suspicion is that drilling has been put on hiatus while proposed regulations are put in place.

Guitardian wrote:I don't trust Mexican cops near the border. They are held to absolutely no standard of accountability. Ours are bad enough, but the Mex guys are just thugs with a badge and a gun and they WILL just pull you over, search your car, take your money, and drive away and there's just nothing to do about it. What call the cops?
they know this. It happened to my friend he told me about the incident. Not even an attempt to make an excuse for the reason. That in itself is a singular reason why the U.S. should have no interest whatsoever in bonding with our neighbor to the south. Now we have to police your police? gak, the bill gets bigger and bigger now...

I had that happen to a friend and his wife while they were down in Mexico. It was too bad for the cop that did it that he didn't recognize my bud's wife as the daughter of a police chief down there.

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Thats incorrect. As of yesterday ALL drilling, care of a statement sent to us from the MMS. Thanks for playing do not pass go do not collect $200.

That's false, according to your own article.

Frazzled wrote:
AP News Break: Feds halt new drilling in Gulf amid criticism for lifting shallow-water ban
Published June 03, 2010
| Associated Press
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Obama administration is blocking all new offshore drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, a day after regulators approved a new permit for drilling in shallow water.
An e-mail Thursday from the Gulf Coast office of the Minerals Management Service says that "until further notice" no new drilling is being allowed in the Gulf, no matter the water depth. A copy of the e-mail was obtained by The Associated Press.

So not all drilling, only new drilling.

Additionally, given the following quote, it seems that there is at least some degree of confusion (possibly intentional misdirection) in either the AP, the government, or both.

Frazzled wrote:
Kendra Barkoff, a spokeswoman for Interior Secretary Ken Salazar, denied that the administration was placing a hold on shallow-water drilling.
"There is a six-month moratorium on deepwater drilling," Barkoff said in an e-mail Thursday. "Shallow-water drilling may continue as long as oil and gas operations satisfy the environmental and safety requirements Secretary Salazar outlined in his report to the president and have exploration plans that meet those requirements. There is no moratorium on shallow water drilling."

It does seem that MMS has revoked the permits that were granted on Wednesday, which lends credence to a combination of confusion and intentional misdirection.

My suspicion is that drilling has been put on hiatus while proposed regulations are put in place.

Sometimes it helps to actually know what you're talking about and not blowing internet smoke out your ass. All drilling is new drilling. Its either eploratory or developmental. But its all new drilling.

Its not false. All our clients are freaking out.

Frazzled wrote:
Sometimes it helps to actually know what you're talking about and not blowing internet smoke out your ass. All drilling is new drilling. Its either eploratory or developmental. But its all new drilling.

No, it isn't. Shockingly I know a thing or two about environmental law and, by extension, petroleum regulation. Drilling that is currently in progress is not 'new drilling' but it is still drilling, ergo 'new drilling' is not 'all drilling'.

Frazzled wrote:
Its not false. All our clients are freaking out.

Yes, because new drilling has been suspended, not because all drilling has been suspended.

You're wrong, again. I was wrong in my first comment as well, but I have admitted to that tacitly, and now explicitly. You have done neither, at any point, ever.

A US Canada Union would have the best chance of success. Not because of common skintones or language, but because of similar mind set.

Mexican laws are profoundly Mexican in nature and enforcement. There is a level of elitism in how they administer their country that would create issues with any type of combined union.
This is one of the problems with dealing with the country of Mexico on immigration law. They want to dictate how the border should be controlled. The Mexican people may enbrace the idea but the Mexican Politians would see their power as being usurped and would fight the idea as Anti- Mexico, not Pro North America.

The US and Canada are far closer in basic ideology than Mexico and the US.

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Sometimes it helps to actually know what you're talking about and not blowing internet smoke out your ass. All drilling is new drilling. Its either eploratory or developmental. But its all new drilling.

No, it isn't. Shockingly I know a thing or two about environmental law and, by extension, petroleum regulation. Drilling that is currently in progress is not 'new drilling' but it is still drilling, ergo 'new drilling' is not 'all drilling'.

Frazzled wrote:
Its not false. All our clients are freaking out.

Yes, because new drilling has been suspended, not because all drilling has been suspended.

You're wrong, again. I was wrong in my first comment as well, but I have admitted to that tacitly, and now explicitly. You have done neither, at any point, ever.

Yes the gym manager knows everything about drilling in GOM vs. the guy who's clients are the actual drillers...yea..

Frazzled wrote:
Yes the gym manager knows everything about drilling in GOM vs. the guy who's clients are the actual drillers...yea..

So you're going to hide behind 'qualifications' now? You would send me up the river for that. Probably with this emoticon.

I never claimed to know everything about drilling in the Gulf. I claimed to know this one thing about drilling in the Gulf, and an indefinite number of other facts pertinent to environmental law. You inferred that I claimed to know 'everything', most likely because you seem only to deal only in hyperbole. You may indeed know more about environmental law than I do, but I don't know anything about what you know beyond that which is committed to this board. If you don't communicate with sense, it appears that you have none. And a person working in environmental law who does not understand the difference between new drilling and current drilling is not someone who appears to communicate with sense.

You know that new drilling is not all drilling, you simply will not relinquish the point by even hinting at the fact that you misspoke.

I would advocate for immediate secession if such a government would come into being. The US is already spinning down the crapper, making a western hemisphere version of the Eurozone would only hasten the plunge.

Edit: Don't get me started on NAFTA, what a boot to the junk that whole fiasco is.

Tyras wrote:I would advocate for immediate secession if such a government would come into being. The US is already spinning down the crapper, making a western hemisphere version of the Eurozone would only hasten the plunge.

Edit: Don't get me started on NAFTA, what a boot to the junk that whole fiasco is.

Would you agree to a more united North American sphere of influence if say, China or the EU became more powerful than the United States and the United States by itself could not compete?

No I would not, first (and this is not to slight Canada or Mexico) the US would not gain all that much influence by incorporating the other North American Nations.

I am much more of an advocate for fixing the problems in our Country that have made the cost of living so expensive, thus driving up wages and making companies look elsewhere due to the cost of doing business in the US. It was The United States industrial might that made us what we are today, and now most of that has been outsourced to various parts of the world. China and India are aware of this and they are gobbling up every manufacturing industry they can get their hands on. Their growth is through the roof as a result. The EU, IMO, is doomed. Their currency is debt. The US isn't far behind on that path I'm afraid, butI think there's enough coal left in the fire to turn things around if only we could get Washington to stop spending like a freakin teen with a limit free credit card. I just don't see that in European Nations. I'm no expert though, I just lived there for a few years and had a discussions over a pint every now and then.

Tyras wrote:No I would not, first (and this is not to slight Canada or Mexico) the US would not gain all that much influence by incorporating the other North American Nations.

I am much more of an advocate for fixing the problems in our Country that have made the cost of living so expensive, thus driving up wages and making companies look elsewhere due to the cost of doing business in the US. It was The United States industrial might that made us what we are today, and now most of that has been outsourced to various parts of the world. China and India are aware of this and they are gobbling up every manufacturing industry they can get their hands on. Their growth is through the roof as a result. The EU, IMO, is doomed. Their currency is debt. The US isn't far behind on that path I'm afraid, butI think there's enough coal left in the fire to turn things around if only we could get Washington to stop spending like a freakin teen with a limit free credit card. I just don't see that in European Nations. I'm no expert though, I just lived there for a few years and had a discussions over a pint every now and then.

What other reforms would you advance if I project my previous scenario in which China or the European Union actually became clearly more dominant than the United States on any number of fronts, such as technology, military, ect.?

Keep in mind for instance the collective economic might of the EU is stronger than the United States. There are other categories in which the United States is challenged.

Science!

Tyras wrote:Don't get me started on NAFTA, what a boot to the junk that whole fiasco is.

So you want government control of trade? Shall we raise tariffs and whatnot?

I thought free trade was good. Let the market set prices I say!


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Tyras wrote:No I would not, first (and this is not to slight Canada or Mexico) the US would not gain all that much influence by incorporating the other North American Nations.

Incorporating both means reaching nearly a half-billion people. That's a lot of influence.

Tyras wrote:
I am much more of an advocate for fixing the problems in our Country that have made the cost of living so expensive, thus driving up wages and making companies look elsewhere due to the cost of doing business in the US. It was The United States industrial might that made us what we are today, and now most of that has been outsourced to various parts of the world.

Do you want to work on an assembly line?