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Actually the entire army being able to wreck a vehicle on a glance sounds great. It might encourage people to get out of their vehicles more, because there might be necrons at the tournament. Explode would be better, but that's just me thinking that mech needs a bigger deterrent, and potentially losing 2kp instead of 1kp because you came up against the wrong army in your all mech list sounds wonderful.

AP1 is ideal. You've still got to hit then roll a six and then another six and then chances are the vehicle will be on a 4+ cover save because of smoke, kustom force fields, or obscured. even if you destroy a vehicle the occupants get out undamaged, hardly a game breaker really and highly unlikely to de-mech the meta game.

AP1 is a much simpler solution.

As far as making Necrons "too strong" against mech... meh.

The pendulum is so far in the mech direction that I doubt even a strong Necron presence could deter that much. Besides, it's still a max 24" range for most of the Gauss weaponry in the list, so it's not as if the vehicles are getting picked off cross-table.

About my Gauss rule in the Eldar current codex Wraithcannons do the job better than what I said but at a shorter range

3/4 glance
5/6 pen

Also their techically poisoned weapons in the Faq I think they made it S 1, cause all S: X weapons got changed.



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Also i dont like the idea of giving the whole army ap 1 it counters feel no pain so could be issue vs Death Guard, Blood Angels and other Necrons,
Dont mind rending for ease or what about +D6 Rending ? i think that was old rending.
Most weapons would get S 4+6+D6 =11-16 at 1/6th chance.

rending would be the same problem against FNP armies as rending would negate FNP since no armor save can ever be taken against a rending weapon.

Also, AP1 or rending would not be an issue for necrons in their current form with WBB and not FNP.

As a Necron player I'm still not convinced that WBB is as complicated as some non-Necron players say. FNP will be an equivalent to WBB when you remove the AP and strength restrictions. This can be done by rewording the ResOrb. This will take a grand total of 5 minutes for a normal person. Obviously, GW is playing a bit with the type setting so we're years away. Pariahs need to be Necrons and leave their points alone. Wraiths need to be a bigger unit and come with rending and an upgrade for power weapons. Flayed ones as troops with fleet or furious charge would be excellent. Their heavy section is a bit weak. I believe we will see new vehicles for Necrons as they're in the novels BL is producing. Lastly, hopefully GW doesn't get rid of my warscythes because that'd make me cry.

What Did in my fandex was to remove the limit on Pariahs change their stats a bit becuase their supposed to be MC / IC killers have them my Necron rule
Feel No Pain, Relentless, Fearless. Change their Soulless rule to state it works on unit inside vehicles and models with stubborn. Gave them 4++ Save
at 40 pts per model.

I realy dont get limits/requirements on units it its lame their is a Force Org + Point Cost + Unchangeable unit sizes why need any more.

My whole fandex is designed so you would be better using plasma weapons or high ap high shots like you do in DOW and they should be a treat to MEQ and their tanks
because Necrons are.

Weapon i Change it that they have Staff of Light and it is upgrade to various weapons like the Lord in DOW does. Thinking on what you said I dunno if they might Nerf Warscythes would be realy lame.

Necrons fluff is they in their bases get awaken spam tons of guys at you that have the best guns in the 40k (basic trooper wise) and kill you. The way to stop them
is largely numbers and to blow up their bases (what should only be fluff wise).

I think,... considering the statistics that for gauss to count as AP1, Rending on a 6 is okay. Frankly, warriors never should've been able to down a Land Raider...

Now immortals and Destroyers, that's a different story, lol

acidchalk wrote:FNP Is not better than WBB. If you knock down all 10 of my warriors, next turn they will get up and rapid fire whatever knocked them down. Also, by giving them FNP you lose out on the reroll AND porting out of combat ability that the monolith gives you, since you can't port someone when a FNP is failed with this mentality. The only thing i can see it helping with is the -LD for dead guys. What will probably be done about that is that they would just give them and they shall know no fear like they had pre-codex i believe....

I'm no Necron player, but when necrons get up from WBB I'm pretty sure that they either count as moving or can't move that turn. Also if all ten of your warriors were down then 1) only around 5 would get back up and 2) You would probably be hopelessly outnumbered and even if you did get 10 4+, chances are that whatever just killed you is still there...

Also, in my very humble space marine opinion, FNP is slightly better than WBB because there are less risks involved. If all your warriors are down you have to hope that enough get back up to seize the objective/ kill this squad/ whatever else they need to do and if only a few come back then your plans are scuppered. At least with FNP you know what your dealing with immediatley.

Oh and in 5th I think that necrons should have a variant of the Immortal that carries your version of a lascannon and has slow and puropseful.

If I am wrong about WBB then please blame Joe the Necron guy I play, not me .

I disagree Dragon. Warriors should be able to take down a Land Raider. In fact I think they should be able to have it explode instead of just wreck. Otherwise you have to consider giving them similar treatment to other codexes where you have upgrade models in each unit, with a general equivalent to a melta.

It's going to be hard/interesting enough to see what they do to try and balance out having to survive deepstriking powerweapon carrying close combat specialists, and mechanized lists with a ton or ordnance, while having no armor to hide in. Trying to do that while reducing the effectiveness of the shooting doesn't sound that wonderful.

That IS a good point. Other codexes DO have the upgrade character,etc...

I guess just changing roll of d6 Gauss to counts as ap1 would be fine for anti-vehicle, make up for the silly lack of low ap weapons for 'crons as well, and since gauss always wounds on a 6 anyways would basically just become a slightly better version of rending... or maybe just different?

Rending couldl actually land a full penetrate on most anything but Gauss will always be just a -1glance. so 6s to destroy.

Yeah... it feels like it balances, but I'd like to see some playtesting.

Rejoice all!

well... not really.

Anyways, I just got done playing a rules mode Necron game of 2000pts versus Space Marine w/...

3 Vindicators, 2 Land Speeders in a squad, 6 Attack Bikes w/ MM, 2 Tac squads w/ power weapons, fist, etc. and some melta/combi melta/plasma pistol fun in there, as well as a LR Redeemer filled with the Good ness of a Librarian in Terminator armour w/ Storm shield, the Str10 spell + null zone and paired to 5 assault termies-- 3TH/SS, 2LC...


Rules..
Necron: was blanketed to include Fearless, Slow & Purposeful ( whose inclusion of being relentless was damn necessary for the warriors to be worth anything...), and of course, Feel No Pain.

Gauss was ruled as is, with mention that on a 6 it counts as AP1.

Others...

Monoliths were rule updated to be more clear and friendly in regards to deepstrike, they still moved everything off.. Transport ability paired with FNP was kept. We ruled that if you transported the unit you were allowed to reroll any failed rolls from the previous GAME turn. This basically meant casualties were kept in sequence of when they occurred and was easy to keep track of.

Res. Orb was altered to function with FNP ( it tool all of 3 seconds... "units with a model within 6" of the res orb may always roll for FNP, regardless of whether or not the damage was dealt by AP1,2, double toughness, or through power weapons..."

Also included was that Necron Lords would automatically have a 4+ invulnerable save. This was quite important as it is a major problem in the current codex.

...

Initial turns where nearly all necrons were recieving the benefits of the orb were somewhat ludicrous since it basically turned the whole army into thousand sons, except better.

Repeating 4+ cover saves combined with 4+ unstoppable FNP were great and made the crons feel like REAL necrons.

Eventually, Space Marine Assault tactics ( the same old one's...) drew the lords and force sections to disparate areas and ended the game in a tie with a series of 4-5 unending combats, all unfortunately right on top of the objectives, lol...

The Destroyers operating with a Lord on a D-body/Res orb in proximity were a force of nature and pivotal in picking off vehicles, transports, and the vindicators in early to mid game.


Post game, tests of the destroyers with standard Rending rules were conducted and it was found that in that context, anything with armour under 14 if completely #$%^ed.

If anyone's interest in particular points or interaction , lemme know. I suggest to you all that you try it out. Oh yes, one last thing, the FNP pretty much neutralized the worst component of Fearless, ala plaguebearers... but unlike them, the Monolith saw a lot of duty pulling units out of combats just to let them have another chance to get those ap1 shots..

I regretted having not taken at least two monoliths for more snatch and grab.




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oh yeah, for models which normally used jetbike movememnt i.e. Destroyers, Hvy Destroyers, Scarabs, Wraiths, etc.. we didn't have them use the Slow and Purposeful rule since... well, that'd be ridiculous.

I suppose, that's one that needs to be taken OUT of Necron and just applied to specific units...

Wishes?
Just that they don't remove the C'tan. While they may not be worth the points, they're flavorful, and the whole reason I took up the army in the first place.
I'm worried, what with the BRB having no pictures of them and making 0 mention of them. I'm hoping it's just that their nature is mysterious and not well known by the general 'public' of the galaxy.

General consensus is that the C'tan are going bye-bye because FW wants throw them out as stupid-expensive gargantuan creatures.

I'm thinking the current C'tan models will still stick around, but instead of being what they actually ARE, instead they'll be treated as a Necron Lord manifesting AS the C'tan... with hopefully lowered stats and even more drastically lowered prices. Although, if they gave either Nightbringer OR Deciever jetbike movement I'd be sold in a millisecond to keep them as is pricewise, lol

Personally I prefer WBB. FNP is so...generic. I felt the getting back up to be really thematic, as well as fairly demoralizing for your opponent to see what he thought was a good turn half undone.


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The Dragon wrote:General consensus is that the C'tan are going bye-bye because FW wants throw them out as stupid-expensive gargantuan creatures.

I'm thinking the current C'tan models will still stick around, but instead of being what they actually ARE, instead they'll be treated as a Necron Lord manifesting AS the C'tan... with hopefully lowered stats and even more drastically lowered prices. Although, if they gave either Nightbringer OR Deciever jetbike movement I'd be sold in a millisecond to keep them as is pricewise, lol

*sigh* So disappointing.
Well, here's crossing my fingers anyway...

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:Personally I prefer WBB. FNP is so...generic. I felt the getting back up to be really thematic, as well as fairly demoralizing for your opponent to see what he thought was a good turn half undone.

It's just the name and happens at a different time. The rule entry could even keep the name "We'll be back: Necrons blah blah blah have FNP."

Gameplay advantages aside, from a fluff standpoint, it's just as easy to imagine the Necrons reassembling themselves with the one roll as with the other.

Besides, FNP is just the catch-all for a variety of abilities. I imagine a unit of Blood Angels with Sanguinary Priest experiences FNP in a VERY different way than Plague Marines do, and both are different from what passes for FNP with the Mad Dok in a unit of Ork boyz.

FNP is only as bland as YOU make it out to be in your mind. Rules-wise, FNP and WBB are very similar- why not streamline the whole process?

I've got to say, I've playtested FNP with the res orbs fixed also, and it makes the Necron all kinds of awesome.

Of course, you still get shivved in melee, but NOW you actually live long enough to get snatched back by Monoliths!..
..

of course that was also assuming there was Fearless, but even then, most of the time the 3+/4+ combo made it so that i was only loosing combat by 1-2 and with Ld 10 base, it would've been no problem.

kartofelkopf wrote:It's just the name and happens at a different time. The rule entry could even keep the name "We'll be back: Necrons blah blah blah have FNP."

Gameplay advantages aside, from a fluff standpoint, it's just as easy to imagine the Necrons reassembling themselves with the one roll as with the other.

Besides, FNP is just the catch-all for a variety of abilities. I imagine a unit of Blood Angels with Sanguinary Priest experiences FNP in a VERY different way than Plague Marines do, and both are different from what passes for FNP with the Mad Dok in a unit of Ork boyz.

FNP is only as bland as YOU make it out to be in your mind. Rules-wise, FNP and WBB are very similar- why not streamline the whole process?

No, it's not just the name. There is a fundamental difference you are leaving out and one that is very very important. AP2 and AP1 weapons negate FNP and not WBB.

Sure, give us FNP but take out the limitations it has that WBB does not.

Yes, yes, yes... do note that I said "FNP and WBB are very similar"- not identical.

How many weapons are AP 1/2 and DON'T double up?

Plasma... umm... Rending weapons... and...?

Most AP1/2 stuff is also going to cause Instant Death, so the "loss" in the move to FNP is minimal. Couple this with the advantages of FNP (preventing Morale Checks, not horribly losing HtH and being overrun, not needing a nearby unit of the same type to get back up, etc, etc, etc) and I think the trade-off is still a net benefit.

EDIT: for spelling more better

Thing is, people defend WBB for Necrons as it is right now because it is what they’re used to. The minor and accidental* differences might feel important, but if they’d been there I’d find it very unlikely that people would be clamouring for them. If people had never had WBB immunity to AP1 and AP2 weapons I just don’t see someone coming in to a rules proposals forum and saying “my idea to fix the necrons is to give their WBB roll immunity to AP1 and AP2”. I think it is alright to lose those kinds of minor and accidental details in favour of a much more streamlined mechanic.

On the other hand, I see a lot of people recognising Necrons have two big problems – they don’t really put out the kind of firepower you need from expensive, shooting oriented troops, and their much vaunted toughness is made laughable when they’re assaulted and run away. Fix those two issues and you’re a long way towards fixing Necrons as a list.




*That FNP is stopped by AP1 and AP2 but WBB isn’t is an accident of rules updates. In 4th AP1 and AP2 didn’t stop either FNP or WBB rolls, now we’re in fifth and the FNP roll has been updated but the WBB rule has not. It is not a deliberate design feature.

focusedfire wrote:@ Kevin-How is FnP weaker?

They both work in the same manner except WBB has your guys fall over and not roll to get back up until the start of your next turn which means that these models affect close combat with a negative morale modifier. FnP lets you make the roll(the same roll of 4+ I might add) during the assault phase. This means less casualties and less nrgatives during combat resolution.

Also, Models with FnP also do not have to be within 6" of another model of the same type in order to roll.

If your thinking about Instant death, the same rumours about WBB changing to FnP also state that lords and such will get Eternal warrior.

Pls, Go back and read both rules. Then give a substantiated argument to your claim.

fnp is weaker because ap 1 or 2 ignors it but not with wbb

cheapbuster wrote:

fnp is weaker because ap 1 or 2 ignors it but not with wbb

Quick, name all the weapons/powers that are AP 1/2 but DON'T cause instant death.

Plasma, Rending, and a small handful of others... if you read the thread, you'll see that the AP1/2 thing is outweighed by the advantages of FNP.

kartofelkopf wrote:Yes, yes, yes... do note that I said "FNP and WBB are very similar"- not identical.

How many weapons are AP 1/2 and DON'T double up?

Plasma... umm... Rending weapons... and...?

Most AP1/2 stuff is also going to cause Instant Death, so the "loss" in the move to FNP is minimal. Couple this with the advantages of FNP (preventing Morale Checks, not horribly losing HtH and being overrun, not needing a nearby unit of the same type to get back up, etc, etc, etc) and I think the trade-off is still a net benefit.

EDIT: for spelling more better

The doubling up factor isn't a huge issue except for warriors. Every other viable unit is T5. Flayed ones and wraiths are practically a joke to field. So the double strength isn't really an issue as there are a number of AP2 or AP1 str8/9 weapons that would otherwise kill FNP T5 models but not WBB T5 models.

I understand the hth benefits of FNP over WBB but again, the units that necrons fail against the most are those with power weapons and usually power weapon wielding models either have lots of attacks and strike first anyway or all the models have power weapons and fewer attacks. FNP or WBB doesn't matter at that point. Dont' know about you, but when I got hth with a non-power weapon/MC type unit I don't get swept.


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sebster wrote:Thing is, people defend WBB for Necrons as it is right now because it is what they’re used to. The minor and accidental* differences might feel important, but if they’d been there I’d find it very unlikely that people would be clamouring for them. If people had never had WBB immunity to AP1 and AP2 weapons I just don’t see someone coming in to a rules proposals forum and saying “my idea to fix the necrons is to give their WBB roll immunity to AP1 and AP2”. I think it is alright to lose those kinds of minor and accidental details in favour of a much more streamlined mechanic.

On the other hand, I see a lot of people recognising Necrons have two big problems – they don’t really put out the kind of firepower you need from expensive, shooting oriented troops, and their much vaunted toughness is made laughable when they’re assaulted and run away. Fix those two issues and you’re a long way towards fixing Necrons as a list.

*That FNP is stopped by AP1 and AP2 but WBB isn’t is an accident of rules updates. In 4th AP1 and AP2 didn’t stop either FNP or WBB rolls, now we’re in fifth and the FNP roll has been updated but the WBB rule has not. It is not a deliberate design feature.

I played a match against my buddy from the missions book, it was one of the chaos marines missions. One of the special rules of that mission was that every non vehicle got stubborn and furious charge. Necrons with stubborn were much more formidable and much more resilient in hth in their current form, more so than FNP would allow them to be.

And yes, people are used to WBB in it's current form and no, people probably wouldn't ask for WBB to negate AP1/2 weapons but that is the way it works now and nothing else you said really matters about that fact. You're basically just saying "well if it was this way then you wouldn't be complaining about the possible change". Well, of course not, but it's not that way.

I don't think the difference is an accident of rules updates, I believe it was purposeful as the necrons SHOULD be more advanced in their avoidance of destruction.


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kartofelkopf wrote:

cheapbuster wrote:

fnp is weaker because ap 1 or 2 ignors it but not with wbb

Quick, name all the weapons/powers that are AP 1/2 but DON'T cause instant death.

Plasma, Rending, and a small handful of others... if you read the thread, you'll see that the AP1/2 thing is outweighed by the advantages of FNP.

Again, you can't just say "and don't cause instant death" because you're thinking that everything is T4 which is not the case with necrons. Warriors, flayed ones, wraiths...those are the only necron models that are T4. Flayed ones are typically a bad choice for numerous reasons, Wraiths are OK but very very vulnerable to many other things. Everything else is T5 and there are fewer str10 Ap 2/1 weapons vs Str 8/9 AP 2/1 weapons. And the latter of the weapons is the biggest problem in this FNP vs WBB debate.

Meh, I played out FNP forces versus 3 Vindicators and the answer is the same it's always been.... RES ORB.

cover save + FNP also means few fallback tests via the shooting phase as well-- don't laugh. I've been that guy who's lost his Ld 10 warriors to a 2d6 run right the hell off the board.

FNP chained through Monoliths also beats the pants off WBB. We just ruled you got to re-roll the FNP from the previous game turn ala current form... sort of. Anyways, it was made of win, and let groups of 8-10 warriors move out of the 'liths, shoot (b/c they had slow 'n purposful) and then assault w/ 2 attacks per warrior.

Let me say, it was an amazing breath of fresh air not to be curb stomped by basic marines, lol

sebster wrote:Thing is, people defend WBB for Necrons as it is right now because it is what they’re used to.

I defend it because I feel it is more what a Necron should be. Not instant repair, but that the threat of a 'downed' Necron is never certain. It fits more with their whole "waking after millions of years of being dormant" flavor. And as cool as it is to imagine a T1000-style instant reforming/repairing, I think it is much creepier for something 'dead' on the battlefield to get back up after you think it's done for. Picturing the paranoia of a Guardsman pumping round after round into what is essentially a corpse lying on the ground because he has no idea if it's done for or about to get up and disintegrate him.

[quote=Kevin949
The doubling up factor isn't a huge issue except for warriors. Every other viable unit is T5.

Well unfortunately you can't reliably have all your units in range of a rez orb all the time and if you're lord is sticking around with your warriors then you're either not defending your softer units properly (sometimes not possible, I understand) by intervening with stronger units or the battle just isn't going your way anyway. Thing is with adding the res orb variable in this debate one could argue that with FNP there are more instances in which the res orb would be needed now thus making strategies for playing necrons more complex. Bad thing? Not particularly, no, but still a counter-point.

If they get shifted to FNP then so be it, I'll make due with it however I can. Obviously it won't be the only change to them so who knows what else comes along with it.

Also, I'd take immortals over heavy d's any day of the week.

Hopefully Heavy D won't be the only way to deal with vehicles at range... or they make Gauss AP1 (or only -1 on glancing hits, if they're worried about AP being OP).

It'll be interesting to see how they turn out in the next codex-- most of the recent codices have been quite decent. Hopefully that trend continues.

oh to dream...

It's funny that while we're all arguing for them to fix what's already here, it's much more likely they'll just come up with new units (*cough Valkyrie cough*) that are needed to hit hard on the table, thus ending with mo' $$$ for GW.

At least... that's what I'm expecting.

As for going back to the now 'tradiitonal rumors' going around, I think we're either going to get the universal +1 stat bump with FNP, or just the super-magic res orb with FNP.

If they really DO give both... well, then Crons really will be scary impressive just for their large units of basic troops...

wait that does sound familiar?........hmmm

One of the main counters to people wanting WBB in the new codex is GW have been making the recent Codex's rules generalized they made the USR section and most of the new Codexes are using this unit has this USR, GW might make crons have feel no pain but it depends if they think Necrons will decrases their sales of space marines so may get a nerfbat *Looks at Tyranid Faq*.
They will most likely have a ton of new models (like the Tyranid dex did) that have good rules to say "Buy me". Sorry for Necro if this is old I have been away.