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Yes, but guardsmen will also be able to be killed. Therefore, they have a chance of falling back. Never discount lucky rolling. An ork with a shoota has a 1/2 chance of getting a wound on a guardsman, then a 2/3 chance of him failing his save. An ork with a slugga and choppa will kill on average (very rough, im tired, so if my mathhammering is wrong, feel free to tell me) 2/3 guardsmen per combat phase. However, if they orks charge (they probably will try to, unlike the sentinel), they will kill even more, about 1 per ork, and the nob will do even more damage. They will also strike at the same time (except the nob, who if not equipped with a pk will attack first). Your guardsmen look good as mush!

Except that they can runaway and get cut down.
The Walkers either die or tarpit.
They are also contributing to Armor Saturation...etc.

Of course you are not gonna read any of this AF.

Sanctjud wrote:Except that they can runaway and get cut down.
The Walkers either die or tarpit.
They are also contributing to Armor Saturation...etc.

Of course you are not gonna read any of this AF.

You're making a lot of sense. What do you think AF?

Exactly. And another thing - the guardsmen cost a lot more if they are going to last more than one combat. 150 + 105 + 12 + 60 = 327 points that can be beaten by 190 easily. Your own theory proves that for guardsmen to tarpit well, they would waste far too many points.

JSK
I take your point the ork is the better fighter in cc than the guardsman. I think we also have to consider the (overwhelmingly likely) possibility that an ork squad rushing a sentinel has a nob with a powerklaw in it. So this may not be the best comparison. idk that's just one scenario.

If we're going to consider the (highly unlikely) chance that the guardsmen will run away in the presence of a commisar then I think we should also consider the possibility of a marine with a meltabomb destroying a sentinel. also highly unlikely but only a little bit more unlikely than the guardsmen running away. 4/100 vs 7/100 roughly.

The guardsmen have much better capability than the sentinel does, and can tarpit about as well too.
AF


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wildstyle
I think I have that guy on ignore for a reason.


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JSK
the guardsmen cost more because they have a stronger set of capabilities. they can tarpit if they have to but, unlike the sentinel, they can do other things as well.

'Cause I'm right most of the time, that's why.
__________________
A commissar means you are injecting more points into a squad that is not that durable for the role.

The meltabomb hits on 6's vs. walkers....not a great idea.


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AbaddonFidelis wrote:
JSK
the AT-ST-Wanna-bes cost less ... they have a stronger set of capabilities. they can tarpit if they have to but, unlike the guardsmen, they can do other things as well.

And he tells me that I give out generlist advice that adds nothing...

JSK-Fox wrote:Exactly. And another thing - the guardsmen cost a lot more if they are going to last more than one combat. 150 + 105 + 12 + 60 = 327 points that can be beaten by 190 easily. Your own theory proves that for guardsmen to tarpit well, they would waste far too many points.

Um, why are the Guardsmen outside of their Chimera?

Cause the local topic was about tarpitting...which Guardsmen can't do when in their metal box.

Guardsmen tarpit better against very different targets. Both Sentinels and Blobs do well against tactical squads, but the AS does best against squads with huge numbers of attacks under S6: assault squads, orks, guants, etc.

Blobs do much better against units with low numbers of very high strength attacks: MCs, walkers, ICs, even TH/SS termies in a pinch. A blob can tarpit a defiler for most of a game. An AS is lucky to last a single player turn.

The critical difference in the anaylsis is that the blob can hurt those high number squads with lasgun and special weapon fire, as well as actually do wounds in assault, while the AS is solely a speedbump. Blobs are also scoring units and are far less likely to give up a KP. Blobs can also bubble wrap tanks against deep strikers, create a larger skirmish line to hold back an assault, and can operate singly for more flexibility.

If you face a lot of Green tide or tactical marines, than I see a certain value to the AS. I'm still not sure why you would include a unit that's best used against builds the IG should have no trouble with, but to each their own.

My doubt about the power of the AS as a tarpit stems partially from the fact that I've rarely if ever seen SM dreadnoughts used in the same way against a competent opponent. I really think that once players are aware that the AS is AV12 and can hold up their units, they'll make them a priority. You can argue, perhaps, that the simple threat of such a tarpit will draw weapons away from other AV 12 targets, and maybe that is worth it. Shots against an AS are shots not shaking vendettas or medusas. That's a pretty intangible benefit, but it's there.

Armored Sentinels are great for tar-pitting something without hidden fists, melta bombs, high strength, lots o' krak grenades, monstrous creatures, etc...
But the minute they come up against anything that can deal with AV at all, they're in trouble in an assualt situation, and that's when an IG blob becomes much better at tar-pitting. But tar-pitting with a blob is a whole other can of worms.

The big issue with using a sentinel to tar-pit is that most players above beginners run at least something in their squads that can take down armor (fists, melta bombs, melt guns) because of the high mech environment anyways. It's not that it won't survive on the way across the table, because lone sentinels post little threat anyways. It's actually that last turn before you want to assualt the target or the turn you do that you'll lose the sentinel (or at least watch it get stunned).

Long story short, while effective at tar pitting in some areas, I really feel that they suffer just because so many intermediate and advanced players are ready for a mechanized list, and would at that point I would rather use them as weapons platforms.

So to the OP, I'm going to echo what everyone else says and say that the best weapon loadout for an armored sentinel is [insert another unit here]. If you must take them, I'd avoid taking plasma sentinels unless you take them in groups of three (personal experience with that one), and would offer up that ACs are cheaper and better otherwise.

Sanctjud wrote:'Cause I'm right most of the time, that's why.
__________________
A commissar means you are injecting more points into a squad that is not that durable for the role.

The meltabomb hits on 6's vs. walkers....not a great idea.


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AbaddonFidelis wrote:
JSK
the AT-ST-Wanna-bes cost less ... they have a stronger set of capabilities. they can tarpit if they have to but, unlike the guardsmen, they can do other things as well.

And he tells me that I give out generlist advice that adds nothing...

So far I think you've been quite valuable to this discussion, although I value AF's rebuttal to your well-thought-out arguments as well.


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Polonius wrote:Guardsmen tarpit better against very different targets. Both Sentinels and Blobs do well against tactical squads, but the AS does best against squads with huge numbers of attacks under S6: assault squads, orks, guants, etc.

Blobs do much better against units with low numbers of very high strength attacks: MCs, walkers, ICs, even TH/SS termies in a pinch. A blob can tarpit a defiler for most of a game. An AS is lucky to last a single player turn.

The critical difference in the anaylsis is that the blob can hurt those high number squads with lasgun and special weapon fire, as well as actually do wounds in assault, while the AS is solely a speedbump. Blobs are also scoring units and are far less likely to give up a KP. Blobs can also bubble wrap tanks against deep strikers, create a larger skirmish line to hold back an assault, and can operate singly for more flexibility.

If you face a lot of Green tide or tactical marines, than I see a certain value to the AS. I'm still not sure why you would include a unit that's best used against builds the IG should have no trouble with, but to each their own.

My doubt about the power of the AS as a tarpit stems partially from the fact that I've rarely if ever seen SM dreadnoughts used in the same way against a competent opponent. I really think that once players are aware that the AS is AV12 and can hold up their units, they'll make them a priority. You can argue, perhaps, that the simple threat of such a tarpit will draw weapons away from other AV 12 targets, and maybe that is worth it. Shots against an AS are shots not shaking vendettas or medusas. That's a pretty intangible benefit, but it's there.

Well, I specifically included PC sentinels into my list to counter jump blood angels, a build that mech guard definitely has trouble against. The plasma cannons are to dissuade my opponent from deepstriking within line of sight of the walkers. The AV 12 does a pretty decent job of holding up blood talon dreadnoughts or assault squads. I think Vendettas are over-all more useful, so when I get the money to purchase one I will probably replace the walkers with a Vendetta and see how that goes.

Ah. I run executioners, which really, really discourage deepstriking units. I've only played a handful of games against jump BA, and none ran by a top player. I'm still not sure that mech IG would struggle too much, especially if you're not relying on an alpha strike. But I can see where it comes in handy.

When I play IG, I'm just not worried about blood talons. S6 needs a 4+ to glance my rear armor, and the bonus attacks just make it more likely that any squad hit will run away, allowing me to shoot the thing on the next turn.

I start with a full Squadron of Demolishers, but sadly, nobody has ever given me the pleasure of placing a full set of S10 AP2 pie plates on their models after Deep Striked into my threat range.

I think that the consensus here is that armored sentinels suck. even for tarpitting there are better options.
AF

Best Armored Sentinel Load out is none at all.

Vendettas for 3 TL Las cannons or Banewolves for Marine roasting are what I would take in the Fast Attack slots.

The only major use for them is more heavy weapons in low (eg 500) point games.
Aside from that, their only use is fluff, and for fun games, where you aren't trying to win. If you are trying to win, equip them with the almighty TakeAValkyrieInstead!

Polonius wrote:Ah. I run executioners, which really, really discourage deepstriking units. I've only played a handful of games against jump BA, and none ran by a top player. I'm still not sure that mech IG would struggle too much, especially if you're not relying on an alpha strike. But I can see where it comes in handy.

When I play IG, I'm just not worried about blood talons. S6 needs a 4+ to glance my rear armor, and the bonus attacks just make it more likely that any squad hit will run away, allowing me to shoot the thing on the next turn.

Executioners tend to discourage anything getting close to them. In my last game my Tau friend made sure my Executioner was the first thing he killed.

Seriously guys, yes there are better things you can put in your FA slots, this is because Valks/Vends are the most over powered/ underpriced (pointswise) in the entire game. Valks are also $103 AUD a pop and if you want a Vend your gunna have to convert (need spare lasscannons), buy a conversion kit ($$$) or proxy. I also think that its very unimaginative to disregard sentinels of any description, they are not the 'best' at any one task, but they are good at a few, they are an all-rounder unit.

I can use a very loose analogy with marines, they arent the best at anything (there is always something that can out-cc-shoot or -manouvre marines), but they can be better than other things (ie they can still kill stuff rather effectively).

I for one dont field sents too often, they generaly only find their way into my list over 1500 points, but thats just me and the way i play, the few times that they have made it into a regular 1000pnt list they performed well. in 1000 pnts not everything has AT so they can effectively tarpit, they are also effective shooters given a PC or Auto-cannons, Multi-laser isnt bad, its also the cheapest, Las-cannons are rubish unless you roll well (single BS3 shot is pretty BS ). why you'd pay to give the sent a flamer i dont know, it realy doesnt work that well. Missile launchers are ok, but my prefference is for the "Cadian Pattern" with the AC.