Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Read this when the link to Stelek's blog first featured it. The author had a good sense of humour. Something about Stelek finally working up the courage to leave mom's basement, and you finally managing to stay sober long enough for a game, Dash

Anyway, it was a really good report. There were some moments where I caught myself chewing my nails when things got hairy for you. I was really hoping to see one of those "How in the feth did he manage to do that!?" wins that you seem to pull off every now and then, but no luck.

Still, it was a really good report. Sounds like you guys had a great game. Congrats on your almost-win, and the fact that you came out of it not hating eachother. Even though you didn't get the game, I'm feeling that you still accomplished your main goal. I don't think Stelek is going to be posting any more "Orks Suck" blogs for a little while

Just Dave wrote:edit: in terms of the whole take-the-turn back thing, I remember in my introduction game within a Games-Workshop store it was me and 15+ Dark Eldar vs 10 Space Marines and I forgot the shooting phase and the staff-member (guy who was teaching us) wouldn't let me take it back. So if I couldn't in a 150pts introduction game I don't see why Stelek should've in a tournament. It was very generous of you Dash, no doubt, but still...

I got the impression, when I read both reports, that the place was loud, and the two of them misunderstood each other. As in, Stelek though Dash had heard him ask Dash to move his pieces (which Dash was near, and the place was crowded enough that Dash probably would've done so to be polite if he'd heard), when Dash hadn't... and what Dash meant as "Are you done with the assault phase?" was misinterpreted as "Are you done with that assault?"

Oddly enough, that seems to be the point on the whole "Orks suck"/"Orks are fine" debate as well. Dash says his build works fine. Stelek says it's basically the only one that does work reasonably well against all comers (as opposed to lists which work well against some non-pathological lists but can't do anything against other non-pathological ones), and therefore good Ork builds are predictable. Which, in the end, isn't a good thing, but I suppose "Orks suck" might be an overly strong way of putting it. So it kind of boils down to a debate on language and tone.

Dashofpepper wrote:The problem with rum is that there's no real opportunity to sit down and TRY the various ones. You have to buy a bottle to try it, and I'm picky. The little airplane sized bottles don't come in a lot of different flavors of rum.

Well, now that you live in Florida, you just need to find a good Rum bar and explain to the tender that you are looking to sample various examples. They will probably start with the fair and most common stuff and work up in price from there.

DaveL wrote:
Oddly enough, that seems to be the point on the whole "Orks suck"/"Orks are fine" debate as well. Dash says his build works fine. Stelek says it's basically the only one that does work reasonably well against all comers (as opposed to lists which work well against some non-pathological lists but can't do anything against other non-pathological ones), and therefore good Ork builds are predictable. Which, in the end, isn't a good thing, but I suppose "Orks suck" might be an overly strong way of putting it. So it kind of boils down to a debate on language and tone.

Really, it boils down more to Stelek's fan club, who tend to be much more fanatical (and much more clueless) about the supposed Ork suckage...

As a member of Steleks fanclub I would like to explain why I feel orks suck. Its not that orks cannot compete. They can, I would put them in the top 4 armies out there, with ba, wolves, and guard. Its that anytime you play an ork player you know exactly what he will do. Charge forward screaming WAAAGH and punch your dudes. Its the same as guard, sit back and shoot from vehicles. It gets very predictable and old to play against.

Eidolon wrote:As a member of Steleks fanclub I would like to explain why I feel orks suck. Its not that orks cannot compete. They can, I would put them in the top 4 armies out there, with ba, wolves, and guard. Its that anytime you play an ork player you know exactly what he will do. Charge forward screaming WAAAGH and punch your dudes. Its the same as guard, sit back and shoot from vehicles. It gets very predictable and old to play against.

Hrm.....I disagree.

In most of my games, my Orks actually are crossing the field to engage in stimulating intellectual debate and the furtherance of intellectual tolerance between different races. Despite my showing of good will and charitable intent, others decide to alienate and fire on my gentle scholars. So they get bbqpwned.

This was my assumption with the make love not war ork colors. The ignorance of some races. Especially those Marinz being all uptight and all. Great Batrep. For the record I am not a member of anyones fanclub.

Eidolon wrote:As a member of Steleks fanclub I would like to explain why I feel orks suck. Its not that orks cannot compete. They can, I would put them in the top 4 armies out there, with ba, wolves, and guard. Its that anytime you play an ork player you know exactly what he will do. Charge forward screaming WAAAGH and punch your dudes. Its the same as guard, sit back and shoot from vehicles. It gets very predictable and old to play against.

But by that logic Guard suck too, which is obviously not true. I can guess what most armies are going to do just by seeing his build, assuming its a common one, so what makes orks different? They have some unpredictable stuff too, Stelek himself posted such a list on his blog just recently.


But hey, to each his own. Some people enjoy running up and puching you in the face, obviously Stelek does not, thats fine, let's just use what we like without calling out others for disagreeing.

Eidolon wrote:As a member of Steleks fanclub I would like to explain why I feel orks suck. Its not that orks cannot compete. They can, I would put them in the top 4 armies out there, with ba, wolves, and guard. Its that anytime you play an ork player you know exactly what he will do. Charge forward screaming WAAAGH and punch your dudes. Its the same as guard, sit back and shoot from vehicles. It gets very predictable and old to play against.

Surely something more along the lines of "Tedious"/"Repetitive"/"Not-the-best" is more suitable than suck?
If people had said not that they outright thought Orks suck, but that they find them "Tedious"/"Repetitive"/"Not-the-best" would've meant that this whole heated conflict would've never happened?

Just Dave wrote:

Eidolon wrote:As a member of Steleks fanclub I would like to explain why I feel orks suck. Its not that orks cannot compete. They can, I would put them in the top 4 armies out there, with ba, wolves, and guard. Its that anytime you play an ork player you know exactly what he will do. Charge forward screaming WAAAGH and punch your dudes. Its the same as guard, sit back and shoot from vehicles. It gets very predictable and old to play against.

Surely something more along the lines of "Tedious"/"Repetitive"/"Not-the-best" is more suitable than suck?
If people had said not that they outright thought Orks suck, but that they find them "Tedious"/"Repetitive"/"Not-the-best" would've meant that this whole heated conflict would've never happened?

Well yes. I personally consider tedious/repetitive/not the best to all fall under the suck category. I tried to explain this, I think Stelek also did in a later post. I dont see why there would be conflict over someone on the internet saying army x sucks.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Snikkyd wrote:

But by that logic Guard suck too, which is obviously not true. I can guess what most armies are going to do just by seeing his build, assuming its a common one, so what makes orks different? They have some unpredictable stuff too, Stelek himself posted such a list on his blog just recently.


But hey, to each his own. Some people enjoy running up and puching you in the face, obviously Stelek does not, thats fine, let's just use what we like without calling out others for disagreeing.

I feel that guard do in some ways suck. The majority of guard lists are sit in vehicles all day and spray special weapons out the top hatch. This doesnt mean that I refuse to play against guard, or look down on guard players. One of my best gaming buddies plays guard, and I have fun playing against them frequently. Same for orks. Its just that after playing against battlewagon waagh x for the umpteenth time you know exactly what will happen.

You could say that about any army in 40k.
If you play to an amries strong points, and everybody else does there all going to play roughly the same

Cilithan wrote:So, next time your going to show the world that Necron are perfectly viable and competative? (Norbu and others allready illustrated that iirc, but still :-) ).

The conclusion that this game - and many others - warrants, might be that lists/army's are not that 'all or nothing' as some like to think. We've had plenty of examples where lists that were frowned upon, did really well.
Blackmoor surprised a lot of people with his Eldar, Norbu continues to do great with Daemons. You are doing great stuff with DE and Orks.
Maybe many a list with inherent quality and an answer to most threats, in the hands of a competent general is a potential tournamentwinner...

Cilithan

Do you know what Blackmoor's list was? I'd like to take a peek

Eidolon wrote:

Snikkyd wrote:

But by that logic Guard suck too, which is obviously not true. I can guess what most armies are going to do just by seeing his build, assuming its a common one, so what makes orks different? They have some unpredictable stuff too, Stelek himself posted such a list on his blog just recently.


But hey, to each his own. Some people enjoy running up and puching you in the face, obviously Stelek does not, thats fine, let's just use what we like without calling out others for disagreeing.

I feel that guard do in some ways suck. The majority of guard lists are sit in vehicles all day and spray special weapons out the top hatch. This doesnt mean that I refuse to play against guard, or look down on guard players. One of my best gaming buddies plays guard, and I have fun playing against them frequently. Same for orks. Its just that after playing against battlewagon waagh x for the umpteenth time you know exactly what will happen.

Well, I see what you mean. You can tell when a guard player sets 10+ tanks as his deployment, he's probably just going to sit there and blast away all game. But if you can't handle the firepower bearing down on you, then knowing wat he's going to do doesn't really help much. My point is, if they can still compete even if your opponent knows how your going to play, then they can't be all that bad. Plus, you have to consider that most armies will have many builds, so you won't be able to fully guess what will happen just by knowing their codex.

Good batrep Dash.

Personally I don't like Stelek's list. Lacking in originality. 5 GH with a melta gun in a razorback with wolf guard leader if wanted?

Saying an army "sucks" is saying it is a bad army. Orks aren't a bad army.

Unnecessary part of the post removed.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Good batrep Dash.

Personally I don't like Stelek's list. Lacking in originality. 5 GH with a melta gun in a razorback with wolf guard leader if wanted?

You could say that about any army though.

4 wagons full of boys and gazzy

imperial guard with chimeras, vet squads, and valkyries

necrons with warriors, destroyers and a pair of monoliths




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:Saying an army "sucks" is saying it is a bad army. Orks aren't a bad army.

No orks are definitely one of the best armies out there. My definition of suck though includes armies that have one option. Take razorspam wolves. They can run across the table and punch you in the face. They can sit back and gun you down. They can play last turn objective rush. Wagon orks can only play run across the table. Es ist geistlos, wie die deutsch sprechen.

Necrons have an old codex full of so-so units, so ya...

Haven't seen 4 wagons yet... my cleansing flamer is waiting.

Guard, well, touche. Though they make sense to me.

SW? Nearly every tourney list has some SC and a bunch of razorbacks.

BA is the same, just make everything faster, replace the word "space wolf" with blood angel and make the guys much less manly and you got it.

Eidolon wrote:
I feel that guard do in some ways suck. The majority of guard lists are sit in vehicles all day and spray special weapons out the top hatch. This doesnt mean that I refuse to play against guard, or look down on guard players. One of my best gaming buddies plays guard, and I have fun playing against them frequently. Same for orks. Its just that after playing against battlewagon waagh x for the umpteenth time you know exactly what will happen.

You can make a fairly effective shooting ork list. There is also nothing wrong with a well built kan wall as well. Every army has it's optimal builds. You see alot of battlewagon assault because it usually works very well. Ork players get upset because the ork codex certainly doesn't suck and it's hardly a repetitive army to play unless you only built up 1 list.

lol, all you needed was an imperial fist player, and your color schemes would have been complete.

Oh ya, loving the burna wagon. The one with the seemingly airbrushed flames is the burna wagon right?

Eidolon wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Saying an army "sucks" is saying it is a bad army. Orks aren't a bad army.

No orks are definitely one of the best armies out there. My definition of suck though includes armies that have one option. Take razorspam wolves. They can run across the table and punch you in the face. They can sit back and gun you down. They can play last turn objective rush. Wagon orks can only play run across the table. Es ist geistlos, wie die deutsch sprechen.

If an army genuinely only has one option, but still manages to win, then it must be a really brutal army. It's always easier to beat something predictable, so if an army is genuinely predictable but wins anyway, then it has to be a crusher. Personally I don't think Orks are actually all that predictable. Battlewagon rush works, half BW/half Trukk works (see WarGamesCon), ork Bikers work (see Paintraina's reports from ETC), Nob Bikers can be brutal, Kan wall is effective, etc.

When you say "orks are definitely one of the best armies out there", you are 100% disagreeing with the assertion that they "suck". Sucks = bottom of the barrel.

@Suck or not suck

Every army, which is well built, should have the ability to adapt the play style to the opponent. What does an outgunned IG do (yes that happens)? What do you do with Orks against the better infighters (i.e. grey hunters)?

Saying "Orks suck" is just an unnecessary harsh expression imo. You just dont show any knowledge saying that. If it is meant provocative, it is ok. But otherwise it sounds just premature and a bit ill conceived.

If you say "I dont like them", its fine. Its a personal opinion.

We all know Orks are top level concerning power and good concerning versatility. So what is Steleks point there?
Showing balls? If he has them, he shouldnt need to show it making unqualified noise. (also too harshly expressed... )
Idk...

What I think Dash has, is a very personal ork style. That makes it difficult to deal with in game. Steleks list is imho a bit more obvious, although it has some trickery in it too...

-Nazdreg- wrote:

What I think Dash has, is a very personal ork style. That makes it difficult to deal with in game. Steleks list is imho a bit more obvious, although it has some trickery in it too...

In case the pink didn't make the "personal style" too obvious. =p

In case the pink didn't make the "personal style" too obvious. =p

I did not have the honour to deal with the colour of your army yet.
But it looks... lets say: "extravagant"

-Nazdreg- wrote:

In case the pink didn't make the "personal style" too obvious. =p

I did not have the honour to deal with the colour of your army yet.
But it looks... lets say: "extravagant"

Especially with that flaming wagon!

great battle rep

Great batrep, was a good read to end the day at work.

Have a quick question though, and hoping someone might know the answer.

Just coming back to game after 11 years, and used to play Space Wolves back then, so picked up the codex and a bunch of wolves to get going with.

But I saw Stelek had these in his unit,

Troop5: 5x Inquisitorial Stormtroopers + 2x Plasmaguns
Troop6: 5x Inquisitorial Stormtroopers + 2x Plasmaguns

and I want to say I had seen another batrep with something similar, and wasnt sure how they were able to use em. Granted, I am probably missing something, but thought I would ask.

Thanks

threewolves wrote:Great batrep, was a good read to end the day at work.

Have a quick question though, and hoping someone might know the answer.

Just coming back to game after 11 years, and used to play Space Wolves back then, so picked up the codex and a bunch of wolves to get going with.

But I saw Stelek had these in his unit,

Troop5: 5x Inquisitorial Stormtroopers + 2x Plasmaguns
Troop6: 5x Inquisitorial Stormtroopers + 2x Plasmaguns

and I want to say I had seen another batrep with something similar, and wasnt sure how they were able to use em. Granted, I am probably missing something, but thought I would ask.

Thanks

All imperial forces can use inquisitorial allies (at least until daemon hunters and witch hunters get a new book). From either of those books you can field 0-2 troop options (which the storm troopers are troops), 0-1 fast attack, 0-1 elite, and 0-1 hq.

The Stelek discussion is just a scam. Of course he choose to say "Orks suck" because it attracts more readers and create more drama. He later explain that he mean that they are one sided. But that would be a a stale headline. He's the Fox news of 40k.

I agree the basic ork strategy is one sided. Run up and bash 'em in da 'ead. But this doesn't mean you can't play them with other strategies. You have a good chance to surprise your opponent when you use an alternative plan.

This battlerep is pretty cool, but I have to say that the paint jobs could be better, though I got a bit rude saying it... I guess at least some of the Orks have more than a single colour but...pink?! My hobby just died a little...lol

Would it *really* have hurt to put a few colours on those models? The Wolves in particular look like something even younger players surpass in their first few weeks of the hobby. I'd have been ashamed to take an army like that out of my house, let alone allow pictures of it put up on the internet...

/painting rant over.

Otherwise, as already noted, nice report!

L. Wrex

Let's try to keep our criticisms polite, folks. -The Mgmt.