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Can someone explain in plain words, what the impending patent will be about?
Rumours said that cutting foam with lasers will be patent protected, other say that the word foam will be patent protected, neither makes sense to me, esp. considering the last lawsuit and the judge's verdict.

BTW Romeo posted in this locked thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/314616.page

McNs wrote:I'm a little confused what Battlefoam is claiming here, based upon how this shook out.

My understanding is:

1.) A customer claimed to have Battefoam brand foam in SABOL brand bags. This foam was actually Outrider Hobby brand foam.

2.) The warstore was advertising Outrider Hobby brand foam, along with its compatability with SABOL brand bags, at Gencon.

3.) SABOL was issued a letter notifying it that Outrider Hobby brand foam may have some patent issues associated with it in the future.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but if SABOL wasn't trying to sell Outrider Hobby brand foam (thewarstore was), how are they liable for damages?

Sabol isn't liable for damages because they haven't done thing one to violate BF's potential patent. BF misconstrued the warstore product. It would appear that instead of recognizing it was the warstore's effort for what it was, they thought Sabol was in cahoots with satan, er, outrider hobbies, and reacted accordingly. At this point they should probably follow up and make nice with Sabol for their error in judgement.

Clay Williams wrote:I am still having trouble seeing where there is a problem here.

Someone with an inflamed opinion about a generally benign subject has gotten the townsfolk into an uproar.

That is what happened. The inflamed opinion came from a person with a history of flying off the handle when they don't get their way. Whether in baseball bat land or toy soldiers.

Lorek wrote:ANYone flying off the handle in this thread, or making accusations, or generally stirring up trouble, will get suspensions. This is a touchy subject.

- Stick with facts when debating
- NO MUDSLINGING
- Don't try to "skirt the line" here; we're not having it.

Kanluwen wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:So just to clarify:
The Warstore Gang wasn't actually selling the Outrider Foam stuff? Just displaying it so people could see it?

Squirrelsrage stated "TheWarStore.com did indeed bring Outrider Hobbies products..." so Outrider trays were likely the products sold. The issue at hand was that Battlefoam is unhappy with SABOL bags being sold by TheWarstore with Outrider Hobbies trays inside. TheWarstore is saying that this never happened. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Who cares?

Apparently the Foam Warriors!

Nice to see again , the rules doesnt apply to some

Glass houses Luna.

I happen to have a few bricks handy..

Anyway, I am very much intrigued by this and will observe the outcome.

And still no word from Romeo. I would be inclined to take his silence as assent that he know that he overreacted and is now sitting in a corner with his hands over his ears going "Nanananaaa I can't hear you!!!" Of course, I'm a completely uninterested observer of the foam wars, since I can fit 4,000 pts of mech Orks in a conglomeration of trays and a big tub (With wheels, nonetheless!!!) all that I bought at Walmart for about $50.

Oh, and Frazz, decalf, buddy, decalf. And some Ginseng. Seriously...

Frazzled wrote:Glass houses Luna.

Yes just keep encouraging his behavior by shielding him

Lets be real fraz , we all know dakka isnt made out of just us 3.
Even if the glass house is true and i turn out to be just as bad as he is.

The bottom line still doesnt change. He was still a rude obnoxious yahoo to others.

We can say 'who cares' and that this is 'pointless' but inadvertently its not.

If people are pushing patents and also legal and political battles it will affect us consumers one way or another.

Less competition = less need for innovation = higher prices = less products.

The wargaming industry both business and consumers will stall in terms of foam goes. hah

CSH_Vendetta wrote:Less competition = less need for innovation = higher prices = less products.

Sounds like the business model for quite a few companies out there (Hasbro, ahem).

But seriously, there shouldn't be any more problems so long as people are creative and can work around the limitations of what has been set before them.

Can anyone else name any other ways in which a company can sell products not patented by others.

warpcrafter wrote:And still no word from Romeo. I would be inclined to take his silence as assent that he know that he overreacted and is now sitting in a corner with his hands over his ears going "Nanananaaa I can't hear you!!!" Of course, I'm a completely uninterested observer of the foam wars, since I can fit 4,000 pts of mech Orks in a conglomeration of trays and a big tub (With wheels, nonetheless!!!) all that I bought at Walmart for about $50.

Oh, and Frazz, decalf, buddy, decalf. And some Ginseng. Seriously...

Are you serious? I really can't respond to this without being mean so all I will say is... troll.

Unfortunate situation.

I was considering using Battlefoam as a case/storage solution. However, I also consider The Warstore to be one of the finest operations and nicest groups of people in this hobby. It doesn't help that Battlefoam employees on this site have generally acted in a "not very nice" manner.

Now I need a different case/storage solution.

The historians can't seem to settle whether to call this one "The Third Foam War" (or the fourth), or whether "The First Internet Foam War" fits it better. We just call it "in-fo-rama."

avantgarde wrote:The historians can't seem to settle whether to call this one "The Third Foam War" (or the fourth), or whether "The First Internet Foam War" fits it better. We just call it "in-fo-rama."

I think since this is a controversy caused by media reports (aka internet posters), I would dub it "Foam-gate."

But in reality, most of the problem is imagined via false reports, so maybe we should call it "Bad Internet Drama-gate."

Well, someone is lying. The Warstore states

Battlefoam stated that they “send a staff member over to TheWarStore booth to find out how our products had gotten inside of Sabol bags”. No TWS employee working at the event remembers speaking to any Battlefoam employees to clarify any misunderstanding.

Romeo states;

It got to the point that we had to send a staff member over to the WarStore booth to find out how our products had gotten inside of Sabol bags.

Honestly, given that Romeo, at the very least, misrepresented himself in his first advertisement on Dakka;

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/226014.page

...and a judge essentially stated he manufactured parts of his suit;

http://www.livingdice.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Battle_foam_outrider_dismissal.pdf

....and given the stellar reputation The Warstore has with the community....I know who I'll believe. In fact, the only reason I even responded to one of the 'The War of the Foams' threads was due to Battlefoam bringing The Warstore into this ridiculous mess. Kudos for the moderators keeping this open so The Warstore could respond.

Y'know, I was about to forgive Romeo for past transgressions (especially his rudeness), and pick up a PACK 1520XL, with a full foam loadout, etc. but then this hit... and I'm glad it did when it did.

BF will not be receiving my money in the forseeable future. Sabol, and when available, Outrider Hobbies, will be seeing a lot of it. And I especially hope the rest of the foam cutting industry catches whiff of the patent attempt, that will only lead to hilarity to the umpteenth power.

Finds this F@$%ing lame that this is the most exciting hobby news we have. Oh and I challenge you to find most FLGS owners to see how much they love the War Store........

AgeOfEgos wrote:Well, someone is lying. The Warstore states

Battlefoam stated that they “send a staff member over to TheWarStore booth to find out how our products had gotten inside of Sabol bags”. No TWS employee working at the event remembers speaking to any Battlefoam employees to clarify any misunderstanding.

Romeo states;

It got to the point that we had to send a staff member over to the WarStore booth to find out how our products had gotten inside of Sabol bags.

Emboldened text is my edit.

While admittedly playing the semantics card, I'd just like to point out that perhaps the BF employee sent over did a purely visual inspection of the TWS booth, and in fact, never spoke to any one at the booth. Poor investigative procedure, for sure.

I'm not advocating for Romeo here, mind you. Just pointing out an observation.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Well, someone is lying. The Warstore states

Battlefoam stated that they “send a staff member over to TheWarStore booth to find out how our products had gotten inside of Sabol bags”. No TWS employee working at the event remembers speaking to any Battlefoam employees to clarify any misunderstanding.

Romeo states;

It got to the point that we had to send a staff member over to the WarStore booth to find out how our products had gotten inside of Sabol bags.

Please don't inflame the situation. Neither statement need be incorrect - all it would take would be a BF staff member going over, looking, and seeing OH foam (rather than BF foam) in Sabol bags. No conversation needed.

chaos0xomega wrote:Y'know, I was about to forgive Romeo for past transgressions (especially his rudeness), and pick up a PACK 1520XL, with a full foam loadout, etc. but then this hit... and I'm glad it did when it did.

BF will not be receiving my money in the forseeable future. Sabol, and when available, Outrider Hobbies, will be seeing a lot of it. And I especially hope the rest of the foam cutting industry catches whiff of the patent attempt, that will only lead to hilarity to the umpteenth power.

I'm intrigued by this stance. Owning products from both companies, I can say the BF products are superior in every way to the sabol products except for price. Why would you deliberately choose to deny yourself a BF product that you wanted? You're not really punishing Romeo for his overreaction. You're punishing yourself.

Do you care about the personality of the CEOs of all the other companies whose products you buy (clothes, electronics, shoes, food, etc)?

Frazzled wrote:One has to be fast. I have a legion of weiner dogs at my command. 20,000 little paws clicking away. 20,000 eyes watching, always watching. 20,000 bellies demanding to be rubbed.

I'm seeing Fraz as Muntz from _Up!_, and wondering if he lives in an airship...


"SQUIRREL!!!"

Arschbombe wrote:Do you care about the personality of the CEOs of all the other companies whose products you buy (clothes, electronics, shoes, food, etc)?

As mentioned earlier in the thread, it matters to us consumers because if one company employs "disagreeable" tactics to suppress competition, the consumer loses.

Plus, the consumer has a right to refuse to buy product on whatever ridiculous grounds they wish. They could disagree with Battlefoam's employees' demeanor or the color of the hair of the co-owners of SABOL.

Absolutionis wrote:

Arschbombe wrote:Do you care about the personality of the CEOs of all the other companies whose products you buy (clothes, electronics, shoes, food, etc)?

As mentioned earlier in the thread, it matters to us consumers because if one company employs "disagreeable" tactics to suppress competition, the consumer loses.

Plus, the consumer has a right to refuse to buy product on whatever ridiculous grounds they wish. They could disagree with Battlefoam's employees' demeanor or the color of the hair of the co-owners of SABOL.

I hope you didn't post that from a computer running an Apple OR Microsoft-based operating system, or transmit it over an internet connection supplied by a cable or telephone company....

I've had a very good customer-relations experience w/Battlefoam so far, and they make a solid product. That's enough for me. If Sabol isn't laser-cutting foam, then they won't be implicated by any patent that Battlefoam receives.

So why are we still talking about this, after 3 separate threads?

The lying is what bothers me . I can't see any scenario where 10 people would confuse the Outrider foam being displayed (not sold) by The Warstore with Battlefoam, especially if there were signs / flyers, and the foam was never in any Sabol bags.

This is what Romeo stated:

Sgt Diablo wrote:While attending GenCon we had been approached by a number of customers stating that The WarStore was selling Battle Foam trays inside of their Sabol Army Transports. This happened during the entire weekend from over 10 different customers.

And that to me looks like an outright lie... . Especially given that the witness in the court case also seems to have been fabricated. The ends don't justify the means, and although BattleFoam might have rights to the process, they should just wait for their patent and resolve things that way... this looks too underhanded to me :-/

RiTides wrote:The lying is what bothers me . I can't see any scenario where 10 people would confuse the Outrider foam being displayed (not sold) by The Warstore with Battlefoam, especially if there were signs / flyers, and the foam was never in any Sabol bags.

This is what Romeo stated:

Sgt Diablo wrote:While attending GenCon we had been approached by a number of customers stating that The WarStore was selling Battle Foam trays inside of their Sabol Army Transports. This happened during the entire weekend from over 10 different customers.

And that to me looks like an outright lie... . Especially given that the witness in the court case also seems to have been fabricated. The ends don't justify the means, and although BattleFoam might have rights to the process, they should just wait for their patent and resolve things that way... this looks too underhanded to me :-/

I wasn't at GenCon, so I haven't a clue as to the specifics. I suspect the "large ads" for OH were smaller than The Warstore's own banners, though, and I can readily believe that a casual passer-by could have missed the flyers/etc., while still seeing the essential - laser-cut foam in Sabol bags.

But, in a more general sense, customer confusion is hardly unusual, but is still a non-trivial concern.

On the patent side: There are significant financial reasons why you might make a competitor aware of your pending patent as early as possible. If you're interested, I'm willing to educate.

I ran over my Battlefoam X-board last weekend, after the WHFB 'Ard Boyz. With my car. I only managed to destroy one of the long-edge supports; when I pinged Battlefoam, asking if they sold replacement parts, they told me just to send my address, and they'll send a replacement.

Battlefoam has been a major sponsor of every large tournament I've attended this year, even the "not so grand" tournaments which only pulled 30-40 people.

And, on top of that, the products are solid. *shrug* I'm content to do business with a company that supports their customers, supports the hobby, and makes good stuff.

chaos0xomega wrote:Y'know, I was about to forgive Romeo for past transgressions (especially his rudeness), and pick up a PACK 1520XL, with a full foam loadout, etc. but then this hit... and I'm glad it did when it did.

BF will not be receiving my money in the forseeable future. Sabol, and when available, Outrider Hobbies, will be seeing a lot of it. And I especially hope the rest of the foam cutting industry catches whiff of the patent attempt, that will only lead to hilarity to the umpteenth power.

Me too. At this point I'll stick with my giant GW case and buy some foam, laser cut or otherwise, to carry my armies.

I have been morbidly fascinated by the FoamWars, though. Its like I am compelled to see how bad it can possibly get!

More importantly, it is valuable to understand the companies I may do business with. I am a capricious customer who prefers, for example, to buy shade grown coffee, use recycled materials, etc. Even if it costs more, when possible, I try to buy products from companies that do the "right thing". So yes, purchase decision is more than just the product for the price...

Janthkin wrote:

RiTides wrote:The lying is what bothers me . I can't see any scenario where 10 people would confuse the Outrider foam being displayed (not sold) by The Warstore with Battlefoam, especially if there were signs / flyers, and the foam was never in any Sabol bags.

This is what Romeo stated:

Sgt Diablo wrote:While attending GenCon we had been approached by a number of customers stating that The WarStore was selling Battle Foam trays inside of their Sabol Army Transports. This happened during the entire weekend from over 10 different customers.

And that to me looks like an outright lie... . Especially given that the witness in the court case also seems to have been fabricated. The ends don't justify the means, and although BattleFoam might have rights to the process, they should just wait for their patent and resolve things that way... this looks too underhanded to me :-/

I wasn't at GenCon, so I haven't a clue as to the specifics. I suspect the "large ads" for OH were smaller than The Warstore's own banners, though, and I can readily believe that a casual passer-by could have missed the flyers/etc., while still seeing the essential - laser-cut foam in Sabol bags.

But, in a more general sense, customer confusion is hardly unusual, but is still a non-trivial concern.

On the patent side: There are significant financial reasons why you might make a competitor aware of your pending patent as early as possible. If you're interested, I'm willing to educate.

Who says the foam was laser cut Do OH cut foam with a laser?

Janthkin wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:As mentioned earlier in the thread, it matters to us consumers because if one company employs "disagreeable" tactics to suppress competition, the consumer loses.

Plus, the consumer has a right to refuse to buy product on whatever ridiculous grounds they wish. They could disagree with Battlefoam's employees' demeanor or the color of the hair of the co-owners of SABOL.

I hope you didn't post that from a computer running an Apple OR Microsoft-based operating system, or transmit it over an internet connection supplied by a cable or telephone company....

We, the consumers don't have any obligation to explain our reasoning to the likes of you, thank you very much. I boycott who I want for whatever reason I choose. You might think it's disingenious or inconsistent, and I couldn't give a tinker's cuss what you think.

oni wrote:They should have a foam brawl. Each can make some foam bats and... oh, wait...

screw foam swords.... both companies have LASERS!!! *insert light saber swoosh and blaster pew pew noises here*

Despite ample warnings from Mods, the way this thread is going, I predict a lock coming sooner rather than later...

About the only useful inputs that I'd like to see at this point would come from:
- Neal (speaking officially on behalf of the War Store)
- Romeo (speaking officially and *honestly*)
- actual GenCon attendees who saw the War Store display