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Isnt this issue ( in a way ) similar to new miniature / gamming companies using forums for example ,
host some contest witih $90 battle force ( costs them $35 retail ) on the forum for 2 months.
And that works better than any possible paid advertising or banner space?

I would say I picked up on the fact that he was doing that, and that doing it would be a really good idea, rather than that I was able to pull it off for my own stuff!

For example, I altered the design of the Dakka Dice slightly- and knew what I needed to do (and not do), but it took me hours to do it . Probably would've taken someone who knew what they were doing about 5 minutes!

Anyway, I'm interested in seeing people who are professional designers, because it does seem like such a hard way to make a living. I got the impression that there was quite a community / that designers tended to discuss and stick together. It's got to be a hard thing to survive off of, especially in this economy!

MajorTom11 wrote:Stop being a self righteous ass and do your homework reading everything I wrote before posting pissyness at me boy.

I hope you see the irony of calling others "self-righteous asses" while simultaneously deriding others in your field who also earn a living at their work, yet lack formal education as "fakes".

There are different levels of expectations for design, and the fact that some multinational conglomerates have more stringent requirements then a mom-and-pop shop who needs a simple logo doesn't mean that either one of you are less of a professional in your field. To think so is self-rationalizing snobbery. At the end of the day, if you designed something for a client, the client was happy, and your got paid, you are a professional.

Formal education isn't necessarily what it takes to be a professional- the guy I worked with majored in something completely unrelated, but put in the work and hours to become a professional designer when he discovered it was his passion...

Exactly as RiTides just said, is what I've said all along.

Ouze... I AGREE WITH YOU MAN!!! Everything I wrote agreed with the points made in your last post.

Realize though that you are talking only about succesful scenarios where the designer, trained in school or not, corporate or not, delivered something to the client with no problems and continued to do so. This is a professional absolutely, a track record of pleased clients says so for sure!

BUT

For every 1 of the ideal cases you describe, there are 20 of guys telling people ya I can do it, then delivering total crap that won't print, won't fit on a webpage without being a pixelated mess etc etc. These guys present themselves as pros a couple of times, screw the client and themselves, and then they dissapear... But they still call themselves pros...

I've seen this countless times, and a lot of clients came to me after experiencing this. In my case, because I am at an agency, there is a credibility built in that people appreciate after an experience like that. In my case, it helps if anything. I just feel bad when I see students graduate after years of hard work, getting frustrated bidding against people who can't hold a candle to them but get to call themselves the same title.

I am talking about the bad examples only man, if you are good you are good, you can learn on your own if you really try and you love what you do. Again, all I ever said was that there WAS stuff to learn behind the career, it wasnt just arbitrary doodling!

Fair enough.

*sighs in relief and extends hand of friendship*

We cool.

/fist bump

I think MajorTom is spot on with everything he is saying.

I also work professionally as a graphic designer and illustrator (I have my own business and have worked for some big names like Barclays Bank and Nokia), and I didn't see anything wrong with the competition. ~$200 for maybe an hours work, on something that actually seemed quite fun (you wouldn't believe the mundane stuff I have to work on sometimes) If I'd seen the topic I probably would have considered having a go myself.

One problem I frequently have as an artist is that most everywhere I post work, I get bombarded by emails and PMs from people I don't even know wanting me to draw them stuff 'as a favour'. Because they would like a portrait of themselves, or because they think they could use a picture for some lame project they have in mind (usually a website) and that I've got nothing better to do than to draw it for them. Sometimes they offer me the promise of small-change or fame on the offchance that their lame ass website/homebrew comic book ever makes any money... Like they are actually doing me a favor bringing me this wondrous opportunity.

It's not limited to the Internet either, in real life I get asked all the time to design tattoos and other rubbish, with no prospect of payment.

People don't seem to realize that something like that might take hours or days of my time. And all the while I have my rent and my electricity and my food which I still have to pay for, just so I can continue work for free on their BS project. They seem to think it's no big deal, like I can just pull something out of my ass while I'm waiting for the kettle to boil, but in reality it's my time and my money.

Compared to those guys; someone offering quite a decent prize for what will probably be very little work is actually a quite a nice find.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:If the client has to go to school for and have experience at graphic design to tell the difference between the Real Designer's logo and one put together by some guy who spend 15 minutes with photoshop, why should he pay 5x as much for the Real Designer? According to what you just said, the vast majority of people who see the logo won't be able to tell the difference, as they haven't been to school and worked as a graphic designer, and paying a bunch more just to have a logo that appeals to graphic designers doesn't make any sense. If your 'pro work' is indistinguishable from 'basement designer work' to 99% of people who see it, it's really not worth paying more for.

The difference is probably going to be quality of workmanship. Unfortunately some people have no eye for quality and no taste either, probably not as many as 99% of people, but definitely some (like pretty much all producers), and there is no accounting for them.

But for most people I think it tends to boil down to the "I could do that" factor... If someone shows you something which you know how to do, and know it's easy, then it's usually going to be unimpressive. Conversely If someone shows you something that you don't know how to do, or know is difficult then you are usually impressed.

I'm sure if I went back to 1600 and showed people some crappy photos that I took with a disposable camera, they would probably hold me in awe as the greatest painter of all time. However if I came to you now and said "hey check out my awesome painting" and showed you a crappy snap from a disposable camera... I'm sure you would tell me to f**k off.

Photoshop isn't anywhere near as old and well established as the camera, so there are still a few people around who are easily impressed by things that anyone can do with almost no ability or training. And this is certainly frustrating for people who do have ability and training, and who try to do quality work.

Perhaps it is these 'basement designers' that are perpetuating the myth that designs can just be pulled out your ass in 5 mins, and it's mostly done by the computer anyway, because for them... it's true.

SmackCakes wrote:One problem I frequently have as an artist is that most everywhere I post work, I get bombarded by emails and PMs from people I don't even know wanting me to draw them stuff 'as a favour'.

Obviously, the only proper response is to immediately ask, hey, speaking of, can you come over and mop my floor? I heard you were awesome at mopping.

Lol Ouze . That's a pretty good comeback!

lol
Friend asked if I was interested in designing a tattoo
Some Peruvian motif was required
politely said nah

never mind SmackCakes, could be worse. You could be a doctor and have people bugging you off duty to look at various body parts.

hmm, in some circumstances that might be a good thing

I don't think its exploitation. The simple fact is, its a start up company/business/store... they're lucky to have any money to put towards a logo. The guy who posted the contest was only expecting someone to put in an hour or two of effort. $200 for that much effort, while less than what a professional makes, he obviously wasn't seeking that level of competence. The alternative would likely be him going to some relative and offer them the same amount. This was just a populist approach.

Also if you go to any number of animation conventions, there are always striving artists who are selling their work and taking commissions. I've had more significant work done for less. They set price.

He made an offer and people took it.

SmackCakes wrote:The difference is probably going to be quality of workmanship. Unfortunately some people have no eye for quality and no taste either, probably not as many as 99% of people, but definitely some (like pretty much all producers), and there is no accounting for them.

The post I was originally responding to stated that you would need to go to design school and have experience as a graphic designer to tell the difference between the Real Designer's logo and one that some Fake Designer made. I doubt that more than 1% of the population went to school for and worked as professional designers, so the percent that would not be able to tell the difference according to what MajorTom said would be 99% or more. If his statement was true (I don't think it is), then there really would be no point in hiring a Real Designer, as something from a Fake Designer would be indistinguishable from the real product for virtually everyone who sees it, and much cheaper.

If the 'Real Whatever''s work can only be distinguished from the 'Fake Whatever''s work by someone who's gone to school for and worked as 'whatever', then the only reason to pay more for the Real Whatever's work is to impress other Real Whatevers, which most people don't care about.

I'm in IT, so "Can you look at my computer?" is a pretty common request. Thankfully my specialty is pretty esoteric (Corporate PBX & network gear) that it's kind of like asking a podiatrist to look at your cold. Sure, I might have done that kind of thing years ago, but it's all a little fuzzy and out of date now. My response to a virus on a machine is to kick it off the network and send in the desktop guys.

Still, if expectations are reasonable if you've got a talent for design doing a tattoo it can make a good Christmas present or similar. Time is as much a currency as cash, sometimes.

Ouze wrote: At the end of the day, if you designed something for a client, the client was happy, and your got paid, you are a professional.

And if you designed something for a client, and got paid, and the client -wasn't- happy?

You still made some money off of it, can you still claim to be a profressional?

And as I pointed out in the original thread, contests can be a sleezy but effective way to get a -lot- of work done, and only pay -one- worker. The guy who winsgot paid for his work, but the other X-number didn't....

For an example, look at the "design a ship for EVE" contest on DA... they're getting a -lot- of design work done, fairly cheaply..

Lanceradvanced wrote:

Ouze wrote: At the end of the day, if you designed something for a client, the client was happy, and your got paid, you are a professional.

And if you designed something for a client, and got paid, and the client -wasn't- happy?

You still made some money off of it, can you still claim to be a profressional?

And as I pointed out in the original thread, contests can be a sleezy but effective way to get a -lot- of work done, and only pay -one- worker. The guy who winsgot paid for his work, but the other X-number didn't....

For an example, look at the "design a ship for EVE" contest on DA... they're getting a -lot- of design work done, fairly cheaply..

Then the designer can still call himself a professional, since getting a client to sign a contract whereby no objection to the final product can be made has to be worth something. The the client shouldn't have paid them. Simple.

I don't know how the other designers who are posting in this thread do it. But if the guy who made this comp came to me he'd be getting asked what kind of thing he wanted, getting presented with several options, then once he picked one we'd go through what he wants changed and It would get changed.

It seems to me some people in this thread think graphic design is just slinging a design at someone and they have to put up with what they get.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, why is this in Dakka Discussions?

Why wouldn't it be here?

I'm in the camp that doesn't really see the value of graphic design firms for the average business.

My employer spent literally millions getting a new corporate image, new logos, rebranding etc. They had a big ceremony rolling it out and the net result, nothing. Share prices remained unchanged, no change in new business, nothing. Meanwhile there were a hundred better things the money could of been spent on to really improve the business.

In my opinion for most businesses things like changing the logo are basically an ego stroking exercise for executives who want to give their opinions on things.

That's not to say that graphic designers don't have their place but in my opinion a lot of the work they do is unecessary and a waste of time. (I think this reflects more on the executives than the designers) Designers are not innocent though, they have to convince the executives that all this money they are spending is worth it. Unfortunately they have bought there own crap about how great what they are doing is. Thus you have the situtation we see in this thread, where they have an overly inflated sense of how much their time is worth.

Just the opinion of lowly engineer.

asmith wrote:Why wouldn't it be here?

Perhaps because, apart from the fact the company hosting the competition which inspired this thread sells wargaming stuff, it has little to do with wargaming.

Also the majority of graphic design work isn't for companies wanting to change their logo. And of the costs which are involved in changing your companies logo, the design costs will be a minority.

Your logic escapes me... aside from the fact that the store is going to sell wargaming stuff, the contest itself had little to do with wargaming.

Sorry ... I'm not agreeing with you.


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Please enlighten me as to what the majority of graphic design work is I am genuinely curious.

asmith wrote:Your logic escapes me... aside from the fact that the store is going to sell wargaming stuff, the contest itself had little to do with wargaming.

Sorry ... I'm not agreeing with you.

Ok? ...so your disagreeing with me that this thread has little to do with war gaming?

asmith wrote:Please enlighten me as to what the majority of graphic design work is I am genuinely curious.

Wow, someone got out of the wrong side of bed today huh.

Most of my work for example is usually to do with campaign material like leaflets or logos to front campaigns. But I also design flyers for club events. Posters. Clothing graphics etc. etc. Then after that you get startup companies wanting a logo or other material. ...very rarely are there companies wanting a complete overhaul of their logo, it kind of demolishes any existing brand unless you throw a lot of money at it, most of which wont be spent on the new design of the logo.

Yes... This fits into the board in a lot of ways. Many people on this board are starting companies having to do with wargaming and the topic has come up several times. It is at least tangentially related in the way that most of the threads in the "Dakka Discussions" are. So I do not agree with you that the topic does not belong here.


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Wrong side of the bed? No I am genuinely curious I said please and everything, you are reading too much into it.

A lot of what you just said you did also goes into a company that changes their logo right? You are chianging advertising flyers and letterhead etc. I'm not seeing too much of a distinction.

asmith wrote:Yes... This fits into the board in a lot of ways. Many people on this board are starting companies having to do with wargaming and the topic has come up several times. It is at least tangentially related in the way that most of the threads in the "Dakka Discussions" are. So I do not agree with you that the topic does not belong here.

And apart from the fact the orignal post referenced a company which was starting up. What does this thread have to do with starting companies?

asmith wrote:A lot of what you just said you did also goes into a company that changes their logo right? You are changing advertising flyers and letterhead etc. I'm not seeing too much of a distinction.

Huh? I'm not changing anything. A company needs a new flyer for example, I design the flyer. What am I changing?

This thread had me wondering if it would fit better in OT as well. I allowed it to stick around in this forum because it had very weak ties to something that had happened on Dakka, now that the discussion has moved from that to the design community as a whole, I'm going to send it to a more appropriate forum.

I think now we are finding out who really woke up on the wrong side of the bed. You are just being disagreeable. I've already stated my position and you are just taking dragging this off topic. if you really want to, take it to PM.


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Dah, you and your stealth edits. Did you read what I wrote there, it seems like you are determined to get into an arguement. IF you are changing a corporate logo you (the hypothetical you) are also engage in activities like changing advertising flyers and letterhead. Does that make it clearer?


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Wow Greydeath I really don't get it... how are the two topics on is dakka going downhill related to wargaming? maybe move those as well?

asmith wrote:I think now we are finding out who really woke up on the wrong side of the bed. You are just being disagreeable. I've already stated my position and you are just taking dragging this off topic. if you really want to, take it to PM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dah, you and your stealth edits. Did you read what I wrote there, it seems like you are determined to get into an arguement. IF you are changing a corporate logo you (the hypothetical you) are also engage in activities like changing advertising flyers and letterhead. Does that make it clearer?

I didn't ninja edit anything. I added a response to your own edit.

I'm not trying for an argument. I'm the one working as a graphic designer and your the one who thinks they have a better idea about what it is I do.

asmith wrote: IF you are changing a corporate logo you (the hypothetical you) are also engage in activities like changing advertising flyers and letterhead. Does that make it clearer?

Lets get this straight. You wanted to know what else graphic designers do besides changing company logos, I gave you a few examples, now your trying to say that all the examples I gave you are related to changing a company logo. Is that it? If not then no, It does not make it any clearer.

I don't have a better idea, you said I was wrong and I'm trying to get an explanation.`


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It's clear you are just trying to get into a fight so I'm giving up. Have a nice day.

wtf just happened?

I play harmonica on street corners about once a week. Some nights I make $2.50 for three hours of playing. One time I made $57 in an hour. I love it regardless, have made lots of awesome contacts, have been offered paid gigs consequently and will keep doing it til I get paid more for it I ain't complaining.

Edit: Hell, for added effect I'm eating ramen as I type and I'm homeless again, yet strangely I wouldn't have it any other way <3

daedalus wrote:I think a large amount of the problem is that you are accusing the people offering sub-quality work of diminishing your overall profitability instead of the companies buying that sub-quality work. You're the Montgomery Ward manager standing around the empty store wondering why everyone is buying that crappy merchandise from that newfangled "Wal-Mart" store across the road. In this day and age, there is "Quality" and then there is "Good Enough". The trend is to side with "Good Enough". This is why companies lease hardware instead of buying it. They're technically getting a worse deal, but it suits them more at the time.

It is a worse deal? I don't understand. You get less for less, lower quality for lower prices. You are buying 3 shovels for the price of one, 5 drills for the price of one.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes you need quality from a product. That in no way holds true for every product ever made. I simply have no need for 10$ a roll designer toilet-paper.

I understand your frustration though; this isn't just limited to the "Creative" professions. A friend of mine got a job about a year ago as a programmer. He has a four year degree, and due to the oversaturation of the market from all of the in-and-out "bad" schools that give you some sort of cert/degree in weeks, he gets paid about what a manager at McDonald's would make. Insert additional competition from outsourcing/visas from people that have never written code, only studied theory, and you've got an industry rotting from the inside out.

Quality is dead; ours is the age of the lowest bidder.

Quality is NOT dead. If you think that is the case, seriously, take some time to look into the current world of graphic design. You're completely wrong.

It may be cheaper to get the best designers, but I seriously doubt that is true. If anything, there is the same gap that has always existed in the art/design field.

If your industry and others are rotting out, there is serious opportunity available to you. There is no need to wallow in self pity. Work that scale to your advantage, raise your value through any means possible. Kind of funny that I am suggesting that, as I it could be the main reason that so many companies are hiring cheaper workers in the first place. The rot is your opportunity to make a decent living. I have no tears for the guy that went into one of the most saturated job-markets to ever hit the face of the planet. That applies to both graphic design and programming.

If you can't pay your college loans off, there is a problem and you should try to find better work. If you can't afford a new car, big screen TV, and gaming PC... Boo. Freaking. Hoo.

Keep in mind that many companies prefer to hire people with 'lesser' degrees, for the fact that they can save money while training them on the job. No one cares that you studied 2 years of general education in college, before getting into what is necessary for your field. If a company can hire someone with less background, then train them at a low cost, and avoid having to deal with the snobbery of many 4-year graduates; more power to them. I have no problem recognizing that some degrees are bunk nonsense, offering little more to the student, while costing more and taking more time. You may think that you got more out of it, but if an employer disagrees by no hiring you, it would appear that you are wrong.

Cost less, do more. That is the world we are living in. There are problems with it, no doubt, but I do not think it is as much of a problem as you suggest. You can get those 'fake' degrees just as easy as the next person, get a job, then get further training from the company that hired you.