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Ahh.... youth.

I wanted to draw comics when i was 14. Or get into Graphic Design or something. But then i actually looked into the industry, the golden age has flown. Welcome to the real world. (I joined the Green Berets instead and i got to stab people, it was also pretty cool)

Im a decent designer, im good with Photoshop and Coral Draw, i go great caricatures (i musta done maybe.. 100 for people leaving the military) ive done wedding invitations and invites for the lads three times, several Posters for corps events, and the label design for a beer bottle (It was the company of a friend of a Sergeant i worked for) I also got a picture of me holding one of my posters in the Sunday papers right next to the Prime Ministers speech!

All i ever asked for was "a crate or something"

I usually got a nice bottle of spirits, or 24 cans, some guys just slipped me a twenty. I got 50 quid off one of the generous guys cos i saved him so much money with the wedding invites and menus...

Point is, Graphic Design aint hard. Id say one if every ten people can draw or design pretty well.

Your in a minority if you can make a living off it these days when everyman an his dog has a scanner, some good software and a laser printer.

If you asked a mate of mine for 500$ for designing him a logo or something, and he told me about it, id call you a greedy douchebag and offer to do it for a case of real ale.

Get over your rage, have a shave and buy a suit, and then go get a normal job and do some graphic design in your spare time.

mattyrm wrote:Ahh.... youth.

I wanted to draw comics when i was 14. Or get into Graphic Design or something. But then i actually looked into the industry, the golden age has flown. Welcome to the real world. (I joined the Green Berets instead and i got to stab people, it was also pretty cool)

Im a decent designer, im good with Photoshop and Coral Draw, i go great caricatures (i musta done maybe.. 100 for people leaving the military) ive done wedding invitations and invites for the lads three times, several Posters for corps events, and the label design for a beer bottle (It was the company of a friend of a Sergeant i worked for) I also got a picture of me holding one of my posters in the Sunday papers right next to the Prime Ministers speech!

All i ever asked for was "a crate or something"

I usually got a nice bottle of spirits, or 24 cans, some guys just slipped me a twenty. I got 50 quid off one of the generous guys cos i saved him so much money with the wedding invites and menus...

Point is, Graphic Design aint hard. Id say one if every ten people can draw or design pretty well.

Your in a minority if you can make a living off it these days when everyman an his dog has a scanner, some good software and a laser printer.

If you asked a mate of mine for 500$ for designing him a logo or something, and he told me about it, id call you a greedy douchebag and offer to do it for a case of real ale.

Get over your rage, have a shave and buy a suit, and then go get a normal job and do some graphic design in your spare time.

Do I smell jealousy or are are you really that dumb to come to those conclusions by some form of logic.

Cause while were insulting other people careers the only reason I can see for someone to enter the military and give up all your time for the unbelievaby gak wage you get is if you are indeed, dumb.

Just so no one thinks I've started this argument than abandoned it...

It might be true that I came down a little hard on this particular contest, but it is obvious from the comments of other professionals that the glut of people willing to work for little money has taken a toll on the photography and graphic design professions.

What I'm getting at, I guess, is that if you like doing it, insist on a decent wage for your work so you can keep doing it, and others can keep doing it, and learn how to explain to your clients the benefits of hiring an experienced and passionate professional.

It's better to have one well paying job with a great client than 20 jobs for dense people who ask you to do it over and over for no additional money. If this attitude can spread throughout the design world it will make a big difference.

For you pros (aspiring pros especially) out there, I seriously recommend John Harrington's 'Best Business Practices for Photographers 2nd Edition.' It's not about how to take pictures, its about how to run a creative business and certainly applies to design.

Here's hoping we all don't end up bragging about how we like to stab people...

How am i insulting other peoples careers? Im merely pointing out its hard to be successful doing Graphics full time and i recommend doing what i did. i.e the less risky approach of getting a normal job and then doing graphics as a part time thing, maybe you can one day do it full time when you have some success.

My good mate is the head of design for the British Olympic team, plush office in the velodrome, seems a decent job.

But the point of this conversation is simply that it is an extremely diffcult job to be successful at in 2010. My mate is 38 and started way back when, he finally landed the good job after building up a huge portfolio and being pretty skint for 15 years and we have spoke about it alot, the point of it all is that the golden age for the profession has now passed and many many people are leaving university with degrees in Graphic Design, are skint for a bit and then out of desperation take whatever comes along and they end up working in a bank.

Seeing as you once again started insulting me in your first sentence however i shall not bother retorting further and i will reply in kind, then you can cry to the mods like you always do even though you started it.

So why would i be jelous? I had the great experience of being in an elite fighting unit for most of my career and travelling all over the globe on operations and leaving with great life experience and no lasting injuries. I am witty, handsome, and have a great social life.

You however are a miserable whingebag with the intestinal fortitude of an 8 year old girl, you are about as much fun to talk to as a sack of cabbages, you are pasty, balding and you seem to drool alot.

Thats us about even yeah?

mattyrm wrote:How am i insulting other peoples careers? Im merely pointing out its hard to be successful doing Graphics full time and i recommend doing what i did. i.e the less risky approach of getting a normal job and then doing graphics as a part time thing, maybe you can one day do it full time when you have some success.

My good mate is the head of design for the British Olympic team, plush office in the velodrome, seems a decent job.

But the point of this conversation is simply that it is an extremely diffcult job to be successful at in 2010. My mate is 38 and started way back when, he finally landed the good job after building up a huge portfolio and being pretty skint for 15 years and we have spoke about it alot, the point of it all is that the golden age for the profession has now passed and many many people are leaving university with degrees in Graphic Design, are skint for a bit and then out of desperation take whatever comes along and they end up working in a bank.

Seeing as you once again started insulting me in your first sentence however i shall not bother retorting further and i will reply in kind, then you can cry to the mods like you always do even though you started it.

So why would i be jelous? I had the great experience of being in an elite fighting unit for most of my career and travelling all over the globe on operations and leaving with great life experience and no lasting injuries. I am witty, handsome, and have a great social life.

You however are a miserable whingebag with the intestinal fortitude of an 8 year old girl, you are about as much fun to talk to as a sack of cabbages, you are pasty, balding and you seem to drool alot.

Thats us about even yeah?

ooh looks like we hit a nerve. He's witty, he's handsome and he loves to stab people. What a well rounded individual we have here. fething pinacle of society.

mattyrm wrote:I joined the Green Berets instead and i got to stab people, it was also pretty cool

Damn you and your awesome job!

Sigh....

WW. this is why you dont get me at all, You dont understand that im not being serious, of course nobody "loves" to stab people, and im pretty sure 99% of people get it. You seem convinced im a very nasty man and thats just not the case..

Well... except that last one.

You're insulting other people's work by stating that you could do it with your eyes closed, for a case of beer, in between trips to the killing fields.

Everyone I know with real military experience never brags about it, or even likes to talk about it, but they do all brag about how good looking they are...

mattyrm wrote:Sigh....

WW. this is why you dont get me at all, You dont understand that im not being serious, of course nobody "loves" to stab people, and im pretty sure 99% of people get it. You seem convinced im a very nasty man and thats just not the case..

Well... except that last one.

No no no, don't dismiss it as trivial. I''m sure you do love it. That and al of what makes up your perfect life. Which it of course is? It's perfect right? That's why me digging at your career has got you so riled up, because your life is so perfect. Call me bald all you want I couldn't give a gak, I have more self deprecating jokes about my lack of hair than you could dream of. I fairly certain who the insecure one is here.

rdlb wrote:You're insulting other people's work by stating that you could do it with your eyes closed, for a case of beer, in between trips to the killing fields.

Everyone I know with real military experience never brags about it, or even likes to talk about it, but they do all brag about how good looking they are...

I didnt mean that i could do it with my eyes closed, apologies if you thought so.

All i meant was that surely everyone who can draw or sing wants to do that for a living right? I mean, its common sense, but you might starve to death trying, so get a normal job and then do it in your spare time. I was just extolling the virtues of the safe option, cos its a big gamble to try and feed yourself with your pen. You know what i mean? If i tried to charge £100 for my caricatures when people wanted them for leaving gifts, i know they wouldnt want them! It just seems like.. nice pictures are cool and all, but people really arent willing to pay that much for them.

rdlb wrote:You're insulting other people's work by stating that you could do it with your eyes closed, for a case of beer, in between trips to the killing fields.

In all fairness, if he actually could do that it would be more of a reflection on the others than of himself.

rdlb wrote:Everyone I know with real military experience never brags about it, or even likes to talk about it, but they do all brag about how good looking they are...

Really? I know a lot of guys that like to talk about their service as they enjoy their profession. Sure some don't, but some do so I am not sure what the point of this sentence is, unless you are questioning whether Mattyrm is actually in the military.

mattyrm wrote:

rdlb wrote:You're insulting other people's work by stating that you could do it with your eyes closed, for a case of beer, in between trips to the killing fields.

Everyone I know with real military experience never brags about it, or even likes to talk about it, but they do all brag about how good looking they are...

I didnt mean that i could do it with my eyes closed, apologies if you thought so.

All i meant was that surely everyone who can draw or sing wants to do that for a living right? I mean, its common sense, but you might starve to death trying, so get a normal job and then do it in your spare time. I was just extolling the virtues of the safe option, cos its a big gamble to try and feed yourself with your pen. You know what i mean? If i tried to charge £100 for my caricatures when people wanted them for leaving gifts, i know they wouldnt want them! It just seems like.. nice pictures are cool and all, but people really arent willing to pay that much for them.

Difference between drawing and singing for a living is one takes a lot of luck, the other takes a lot of hard work. What your suggesting is that you take the easy option and put up with some shyte job you don't like all your life because you never had the attitude of believing in yourself. Take a job instead which will hire you on the basis you can jump a few hoops and live in a room full of men for months on end. Screw your "advice".

One thing that bugs me about being a designer, is after 20 years I still don't know what to charge for my services. One rate is too high for one client, and makes the other think I'm offering too low and will end up being more unprofessional or amaturish. Sometimes a client will tell you their budget, other times it's a guessing game. I took the easy way out and now I'm an in house designer for a vacation company now. I would probably make more at a design firm, but all of the firms I worked for thought it was fun to just hire you for 3 months and then lay you off when it's time to start giving you benefits.

Necros wrote:One thing that bugs me about being a designer, is after 20 years I still don't know what to charge for my services. One rate is too high for one client, and makes the other think I'm offering too low and will end up being more unprofessional or amaturish. Sometimes a client will tell you their budget, other times it's a guessing game. I took the easy way out and now I'm an in house designer for a vacation company now. I would probably make more at a design firm, but all of the firms I worked for thought it was fun to just hire you for 3 months and then lay you off when it's time to start giving you benefits.

I have never understood why the US has now laws on how employers dismiss people. In the UK if they pulled that they'd never get away with it.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

SmackCakes wrote:The difference is probably going to be quality of workmanship. Unfortunately some people have no eye for quality and no taste either, probably not as many as 99% of people, but definitely some (like pretty much all producers), and there is no accounting for them.

The post I was originally responding to stated that you would need to go to design school and have experience as a graphic designer to tell the difference between the Real Designer's logo and one that some Fake Designer made. I doubt that more than 1% of the population went to school for and worked as professional designers, so the percent that would not be able to tell the difference according to what MajorTom said would be 99% or more. If his statement was true (I don't think it is), then there really would be no point in hiring a Real Designer, as something from a Fake Designer would be indistinguishable from the real product for virtually everyone who sees it, and much cheaper.

If the 'Real Whatever''s work can only be distinguished from the 'Fake Whatever''s work by someone who's gone to school for and worked as 'whatever', then the only reason to pay more for the Real Whatever's work is to impress other Real Whatevers, which most people don't care about.

That's a fair point. It is certainly true that a portion of any artists work will probably only be fully appreciated by other artists. Though I think even non artists will still appreciate things on the level that they work well and never give trouble.

In some cases it is true that less than 1% of people (even trained designers) could spot the difference... At least not at first glance. But that doesn't mean there is no difference, it might take time for the cracks to develop. You might discover that your Logo won't print correctly because it is not comparable with CYMK, so you always end up with curious lines in your gradients, or that it never seems to look right in black and white, or on certain screens, or can't be discerned at small scales or at low bitrate. You might discover that when you try to put your logo onto a different colored background you end up with nasty artifacting around all the edges. Your logo might look fine on screen, but try putting it on the side of a van, or a bill board, or even on something small like the side of a pen... Did the designer create clipping paths for your logo? Is there a vector based version stored anywhere? If not then you might need to pay someone to redraw it. Logos need to be very robust, because literally no one knows where they might eventually end up. There are a myriad of problems that could arise with a logo. Someone who is not properly experienced/qualified could easily overlook even well known problems that will certainly arise.

Chibi Bodge-Batte wrote:never mind SmackCakes, could be worse. You could be a doctor and have people bugging you off duty to look at various body parts.

While that could certainly put you off your lunch, I feel doctors still have it easier... All they are really expected to do is say "Hmmmm... looks like herpes" and that is their job done in 5 seconds. It isn't hours of delicate work like painting a picture. But like MajorTom said a lot of people don't seem realize how much work is involved. I think artists more than any other profession get disrespected and taken for granted. No one expects a brick layer to build a house in half a day. No one goes up to a musician with a piece of paper and says "hey could you just quickly write a song for me". No one goes to a mechanic and says that they want him to make their car fly. And no one hires a composer to write music for their project, and then literally just has them write down notes as dictated by someone who knows nothing about music, ignoring any and all advice on musical theory and arrangement.

Yet with artists and designers, people frequently seem to expect that you should be able to create masterpieces, in impossible times, for next to no money. Whilst simultaneously preventing you from doing anything decent by consonantly interfering and insisting that "I want this blue, and those over here, and that bigger, and can you make that guy look like he has diabetes?¿? " Despite the fact that they have zero understanding or composition or colour theory or storytelling through pictures.

And then when you tell them you can't deliver the impossible, or you give it your best shot to entertain their stupid demands, but it inevitably ends up looking awful... they turn round and say something like "Meh I knew I should have hired someone else, you're not a real artist".

rdlb wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/316945.page

That post is an outrageous exploitation of young people with limited business acumen and enthusiasm to see their designs used. Tunnel Rat should have gotten paid a lot more for his graphic design work.

Of course its common for companies to do this kind of thing for designs and photography because it saves them a ton of money. But no one can survive on the terrible income paid by these kinds of jobs. And they are jobs.

If you want to work as a graphic artist then demand a wage you can survive on. If you need graphic design you should hire a designer after looking over their portfolio, not hold a contest to pay bottom dollar for someones hard work under the guise of a contest.

whatwhat wrote:Take a job instead which will hire you on the basis you can jump a few hoops and live in a room full of men for months on end. Screw your "advice".

You really do have absolutely no idea what a professional soldier does for a living mate. It can be an extremely rewarding, satisfying and diverse job. Ive provided security for agencies giving out staionary at girls schools in Kabul, provided medical aid to kids, shot and blew stuff up, done intel work sat in an office working on psyops stuff, it really is a tad more than jumping hoops and living with men.

Its ok to hate the military, but seriously, just.. you know. Say something sensible. I can tell your upset though, so just take it to PM and we can stop hijacking this blokes thread.

mattyrm wrote:

whatwhat wrote:Take a job instead which will hire you on the basis you can jump a few hoops and live in a room full of men for months on end. Screw your "advice".

You really do have absolutely no idea what a professional soldier does for a living mate. It can be an extremely rewarding, satisfying and diverse job. Ive provided security for agencies giving out staionary at girls schools in Kabul, provided medical aid to kids, shot and blew stuff up, done intel work sat in an office working on psyops stuff, it really is a tad more than jumping hoops and living with men.

Its ok to hate the military, but seriously, just.. you know. Say something sensible. I can tell your upset though, so just take it to PM and we can stop hijacking this blokes thread.

Yeh well as soon as you get all that gak off your chest mattyrm, about how fullfilled you are and all maybe you will stop hijacking this blokes thread.

Stop hijacking this blokes thread >.>

mattyrm wrote:Im a decent designer, im good with Photoshop and Coral Draw, i go great caricatures (i musta done maybe.. 100 for people leaving the military) ive done wedding invitations and invites for the lads three times, several Posters for corps events, and the label design for a beer bottle (It was the company of a friend of a Sergeant i worked for) I also got a picture of me holding one of my posters in the Sunday papers right next to the Prime Ministers speech!

Point is, Graphic Design aint hard. Id say one if every ten people can draw or design pretty well.

Note that this like saying that because I used to be a hunter and a good shot, I'd be a decent Green Beret. Like right now.

I'd never say that because a) I'm too old, and b) I recognize that it's a complicated job that requires a lot of training beyond squeezing a trigger.

mattyrm wrote:...many many people are leaving university with degrees in Graphic Design, are skint for a bit and then out of desperation take whatever comes along and they end up working in a bank.

LOL. This bit is my cousin from England.

Necros wrote:One thing that bugs me about being a designer, is after 20 years I still don't know what to charge for my services. One rate is too high for one client, and makes the other think I'm offering too low and will end up being more unprofessional or amaturish. Sometimes a client will tell you their budget, other times it's a guessing game. I took the easy way out and now I'm an in house designer for a vacation company now. I would probably make more at a design firm, but all of the firms I worked for thought it was fun to just hire you for 3 months and then lay you off when it's time to start giving you benefits.

That is much the same in any independent profession. Even at a large scale company there will be people that come up with bids on different jobs. The whole process is very much an art in itself, given that you'll need to have a decent amount of knowledge concerning sales. You need to sell yourself; make yourself the most important part of a bid. Do not let a client grab your balls and drag you around through their nonsense. Let them speak, size them up, and deliver your sales pitch. If one person thinks it is too low while another thinks your bid is too high; both of them are probably wrong. At that point at least you have a solid middle ground, because they are probably both wrong, leaving you comfortable in being relatively right.

Be flexible, just keep in mind that you are working with people, and we are not always rational. You are not always rational either, just so I've made my inclusion entirely clear. Both you and your clients can be wrong, but it doesn't matter if you get paid what you NEED, while your clients get what they like. Much of the time you have to work through a bunch of absolute crap to get a point across, and in many situations dropping a job for those reasons is not a bad idea. Don't work for bossy mcdumbass, work for someone else.

Finding good clients is as important as finishing the jobs, simply for the fact that a bad client will try their hardest to confuse and stifle completion. There are quite a few clients that excel at taking any rationality from a job. Make it as clear as you can that they are being charged for that time, and if you do not trust them to pay you, STOP WORKING FOR THEM. DO IT NOW.

Good luck, though.

SmackCakes wrote:Yet with artists and designers, people frequently seem to expect that you should be able to create masterpieces, in impossible times, for next to no money. Whilst simultaneously preventing you from doing anything decent by consonantly interfering and insisting that "I want this blue, and those over here, and that bigger, and can you make that guy look like he has diabetes?¿? " Despite the fact that they have zero understanding or composition or colour theory or storytelling through pictures.

And then when you tell them you can't deliver the impossible, or you give it your best shot to entertain their stupid demands, but it inevitably ends up looking awful... they turn round and say something like "Meh I knew I should have hired someone else, you're not a real artist".

Given enough experience you can spot those clients in five questions or less. All in all it doesn't matter as long as you get paid. If you open yourself to accepting stupid demands from bossy clients, you'll be the one to pay the price. It may be difficult given the general lack of work artists and graphic designers face, but it is not beyond reason to be discerning in the jobs you take on.

Oh, your response to clients that spew nonsense like you stated at the end of the post, should be something along the lines of: "I knew you werent a paying customer, if only I had listened to my instinct."

Spot those clients before they can screw you, because there are more than enough that are willing to do so.

Frazzled wrote:

rdlb wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/316945.page

That post is an outrageous exploitation of young people with limited business acumen and enthusiasm to see their designs used. Tunnel Rat should have gotten paid a lot more for his graphic design work.

Of course its common for companies to do this kind of thing for designs and photography because it saves them a ton of money. But no one can survive on the terrible income paid by these kinds of jobs. And they are jobs.

If you want to work as a graphic artist then demand a wage you can survive on. If you need graphic design you should hire a designer after looking over their portfolio, not hold a contest to pay bottom dollar for someones hard work under the guise of a contest.

Yeah!! A Mod and a troll all in one!!

asmith wrote:

Just the opinion of lowly engineer.

Perhaps if the engineers produced a decent product that sold itself on the merits better, the execs wouln't try to boost sales by improving the packaging...

BTW, I'm also assuming you play your games, using folded peices of cardboard with "space marine with bolter" written on it, and don't mind your rulebook being printed in off a dot matrix printer in 8 point times new roman, with ascii diagrams, and no fluff...

Wrexasaur wrote:Given enough experience you can spot those clients in five questions or less. All in all it doesn't matter as long as you get paid. If you open yourself to accepting stupid demands from bossy clients, you'll be the one to pay the price. It may be difficult given the general lack of work artists and graphic designers face, but it is not beyond reason to be discerning in the jobs you take on.

Oh, your response to clients that spew nonsense like you stated at the end of the post, should be something along the lines of: "I knew you werent a paying customer, if only I had listened to my instinct."

Spot those clients before they can screw you, because there are more than enough that are willing to do so.

Ahhh indeed. I read a great article a few years ago called 'clients or grinders' Link which described these people to a tea. Nowadays I usually just quote a daily rate that I'm comfortable with, and then double it. That's usually enough to filter out time wasters (Though I like to think money well spent for serious clients). But that doesn't change people's attitudes in general.

whatwhat wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

whatwhat wrote:Take a job instead which will hire you on the basis you can jump a few hoops and live in a room full of men for months on end. Screw your "advice".

You really do have absolutely no idea what a professional soldier does for a living mate. It can be an extremely rewarding, satisfying and diverse job. Ive provided security for agencies giving out staionary at girls schools in Kabul, provided medical aid to kids, shot and blew stuff up, done intel work sat in an office working on psyops stuff, it really is a tad more than jumping hoops and living with men.

Its ok to hate the military, but seriously, just.. you know. Say something sensible. I can tell your upset though, so just take it to PM and we can stop hijacking this blokes thread.

Yeh well as soon as you get all that gak off your chest mattyrm, about how fullfilled you are and all maybe you will stop hijacking this blokes thread.

Pretty funny, since that is what you have done for the last page and a half; spouting off you elitist graphic design crap like you know everything.

asmith wrote:My employer spent literally millions getting a new corporate image, new logos, rebranding etc. They had a big ceremony rolling it out and the net result, nothing. Share prices remained unchanged, no change in new business, nothing. Meanwhile there were a hundred better things the money could of been spent on to really improve the business.

In my opinion for most businesses things like changing the logo are basically an ego stroking exercise for executives who want to give their opinions on things.

My take on this is slightly different. I work in IT supporting several fortune 500 companies. One of them, which shall remain nameless, is getting reamed hard by the recession - the majority of their work is in real estate, and they made a lot of poor decisions (this poor decision making is across the board, by the way). In addition to mass layoffs they decided to do.. what else! A rebranding. A few weeks later they now have a new logo, and all the same problems they had before the new logo.

I think it's got less to do with ego stroking (at least in this specific case) and more to do with, when confronted by enormous problems you cannot solve, you tend to create and solve a simple one.

Ironhide wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

whatwhat wrote:Take a job instead which will hire you on the basis you can jump a few hoops and live in a room full of men for months on end. Screw your "advice".

You really do have absolutely no idea what a professional soldier does for a living mate. It can be an extremely rewarding, satisfying and diverse job. Ive provided security for agencies giving out staionary at girls schools in Kabul, provided medical aid to kids, shot and blew stuff up, done intel work sat in an office working on psyops stuff, it really is a tad more than jumping hoops and living with men.

Its ok to hate the military, but seriously, just.. you know. Say something sensible. I can tell your upset though, so just take it to PM and we can stop hijacking this blokes thread.

Yeh well as soon as you get all that gak off your chest mattyrm, about how fullfilled you are and all maybe you will stop hijacking this blokes thread.

Pretty funny, since that is what you have done for the last page and a half; spouting off you elitist graphic design crap like you know everything.

No it's funny because as far as I see it it was mattyrm who was saying there was nothing to know in graphic design, and 1 in every ten people can do the job. Me I would openly admit I don't know everything about graphic design. I'm just defending it against some muppet who thinks it's a not a "normal" job, more than likely fueled by his inability to do it himself. In fact the last page and a half as you put it has been more about matyrm mocking my appearance and character based on my posts on this forum and a picture in the 'show yourself' thread like a fricking twelve year old.

If you actually read I'm trying to support others wanting to enter graphic design against someone who is suggesting they give it up as it's a pipe dream job and you'll end up working in a bank. What a load of gak.

..I'm not really sure if this thread has any future at all here, it certainly doesn't on its current heading, but as the optimist hat is still on today we'll leave it open for a short while and see if it, and some of the posters, can redeem themselves.

To that end, it would be helpful if posters could maybe attempt to phrase given criticism of another posters position in a manner not designed to be rude or aggressive.

Chibi Bodge-Batte wrote:You could be a doctor and have people bugging you off duty to look at various body parts.

Does that make me a doctor? Seriously though, regardless of what your "profession" is, does it really matter? Fact is, we do what we need to survive. If you walked by a garage sale and saw a $200 TV in working condition, playing in front of you and it was marked $1, who wouldn't buy that to resell if not keep it for themselves? If you clean a dirty spot off one corner then you just became a "refurbisher!" With the way the economy is going it's getting harder and harder to count on any one thing, and diversity of skills is going to see people through a lot better than an isolated skill set. That aside, I have friends who are succesful doing only graphic design and I know others who tried and flopped. It's like any other field, some people work out and others don't for X, Y and Z reason.

reds8n wrote:but as the optimist hat is still on today