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reds8n wrote: No love for a unit of chosen/whatever as a troops choice if you take Abaddon then?

I actually missed this somehow.
What about if we change this slightly, and instead of allowing a special troop choice, take a line from the last codex and give him the option to take a chosen termi bodyguard at no FOC slot makeup?

reds8n wrote: The book reads : "Whenever an enemy model succeeds on a psychic test within 24" of the bearer,roll a dice -- on the roll of a 4+ that power is nullified."

Sounds good and I like it. Consider it added.

**EDIT**
Just had an idea, what if instead of the power being nullfied, the user suffers a perils of the warp instead?

reds8n wrote: I agree the sorcerers need something.
I think the "power of chaos" rule is workable, it still leaves them a chance of failing -- you can't trust the chaos gods too much after all.

I think the vessel idea is kinda cool, but might be a bit too much of a nerf.. unless we maybe make that an option for the sorcerer to buy ? It could be some arcane item or somesuch and goes some way towards helping make the sorcerer's more of a supporting unit rather than simply a less effective version of the lord/s.

So can we agree on the following:
Vassel Of The Warp is a mutation upgrade restricted to MOT sorcerers for lets say 15 pts (?)
Power Of Chaos now counts as a MOT benefit on sorcerers that take it.

I feel that the above is both pretty slick, fluffy, and adds some flavor to certain chaos builds.

As for Chaos scouts, I feel that this roll could be filld by bringing back cultists.

Hey, I was intending (and have been for a long time) to propose a Chaos Space Marine fandex but wanted to see what people wanted from the Codex and luckily I've stumbled upon this.
I still intend to create my fandex - although maybe not right now as that could clutter up the forum - however I'll throw my hat into the ring and leave a few comments.
Note: I intend to play Devil's Advocate here, a lot of the stuff I've seen suggested has been over-powered or too 'out there' IMHO.

jp400 wrote:TYPHUS:
(Same Base Stats)
(Patron God: Nurgle)

Cost: 205 Pts

Cons: Other then being slightly over cost, I have to admit that I can't seem to find anything really wrong with him stat wise. That and I have not heard many people complain about him.

The main - and understandably so - complaint I see about Typhus is his lack of immunity to instant death. You'd have this 4 wound, T5, 2+ charaacter who'd get bopped by a random power-fist. I'd say keep his current points but give him eternal warrior. He's been around since the heresy after-all.

KHARN:
(Same Base Stats)
(Patron God: Khorne)

Cost: 165 Pts

Cons: Same as above. He is pretty solid right now with how he is. The only thing I could think of doing is maybe giving him the chaos version of Artificer Armor thus upping him to a 2+ save base. This of course would increast his base point cost a little bit. (thinking 175 pts)

This seems like a fair idea. Does he have a slight invulnerable save atm (can't remember right now) but a 5++ or something could be suitable. Reds8n's idea of possible upgrade to squad has some weight to it, though I'd argue he's enough of a character to warrant his own HQ slot.

AHRIMAN:
(Same Base Stats)
(Patron God: Tzeentch)

Cost: 240 Pts

Cons: He is supposed to be the best psyker known, and compared to the new loyalist psykers... he sucks. How can we fix this? I feel that if we give him better spells, more selection, and the ability to protect his side from enemy psykers would make him very attractive to players.

Master Of Sorcery: Allows him the ability to cast any spell in the Chaos Codex. (will be updated later when I hit on the chaos spells)

The Black Staff Of Ahriman: Same as before But add the line "Also whenever an enemy model succeeds on a psychic test within 24" of Ahriman, On a D6 roll of 4+ that power is ignored.

Inferno Bolts: Same as Before

Helm Of Eternal Silence: Any unit that Ahriman joins gains immunity to ALL psychic spells and weapons. Also counts as a psychic hood.

You've got a psychic hood in effect within the black staff. Maybe immunity to ALL is a bit OP IMHO. 4+ chance of ignoring psychic powers/force weapons is more reasonable in my opinion.

I will have my revenge: Ahriman to this day still holds an unrelenting hatred for the Space Wolfs for the destruction of Prospero and its vast holdings of great and powerfull artifacts from the great crusade.

If Ahriman is fighting Space Puppies, he gains preferred enemy USR and bestows it upon any Thousnad Sons CSM in the army.

I'd argue this to be slightly unfair. Not only does this only affect a single army - and is hence a bit unbalanced (as is the idea of Preferred enemy against Codex Marines!) - but it doesn't make sense for the opposing army to not have the same rule. Notice it's not included in the Space Wolf Codex either? I'd leave this behind IMHO.
Also, Ahriman doesn't hate the Space Puppies so much, he's really pissed at the Eldar for screwing up his plans with the black library...
You may wish to replace a rule with something akin to Veil Of Darkness (Necrons) as I recall a similar white dwarf rule in the past for aspiring sorcerers?

reds8n wrote: I appreciate the enthusiasm shown by so many people here and their myriad of ideas, however the Op has suggested that rather than employing such a wide scattergun approach to the codex, a more measured and logical procession through the codex would be better.
In that spirit :

I like most of the Abaddon stuff, I would simply clarify him as having eternal warrior, and I would also have him grant fearless to any squad he joins as well..that's always been a bug bear of mine of him currently.

When I looked at doing something like this I took some inspiration from the ork codex and the idea that certain selections "unlocked" or moved a ( single) unit from one slot to another. To this end how about Abaddon being taken as an HQ choice allows a single unit of Chaos Chosen ( including terminators assuming we're leaving them as a single option ) to be allowed to be taken as a troops choice. This represents the hardened inner core of veterans he keeps close as his praetorian guard/people he needs to keep an eye on.

This is a much better and fairer rule than allowing all termies as troops. It's bad enough that the Space Wolves can do this, it should really only be the Deathwing IMHO. Even so, a squad of termies as troops is much more reasonable and fluffy. Black Legion isn't known for it's terminator armour.

jp400 wrote:Abaddon Upgraded.

Abaddon: If anyone would be willing to un-clutter his Legendary Warmaster skill and make it more slimlined, that would be great.

You incarnation of Abaddon is very much over-powered in my opinion. Whilst he is over-priced in his current codex, in your incarnation he's cheaper (than Logan, Mephiston, Njal, Sanguinor and more too) than he was before but is now MUCH better?! He doesn't need to re-roll wound; he's strength 8. I'm also unsure about the 3++. I like what you did with the bolter and that he actually does something to his force, however he's supposed to be a daemon in combat and he really is. Particularly with his Daemon Weapon sorted (good move there). In his current incarnation he trounces Ghazzy let alone anything else. 250pts really is much too cheap for him now. His current points cost is much more suitable, maybe even more with a 3++. Seriously. Otherwise, good ideas.

Ahriman: I do not have the space puppy codex handy, so if someone would be willing be willing to write something up like Red suggested, I would be willing to post it. Also an interesting idea... stealing an idea from WFB, what if his staff instead of giving a re-roll, generated a D6 each player turn that went into a pool and could be used to boost any psychic test.. either for casting, or for psychic hood ect ect.

Kind of cool idea about the 'pool' but is difficult to work and Ahriman really, really has enough special rules and abilities in your current incarnation of him...

Now, I really like Power of Chaos and Vessel of the Warp. Now what if, instead of giving these to a special character, we made is a Tzeench special rule for any psyker with his mark?
This would really boost Thousand Sons and make them a much needed anti psyker army to balance out some of the power creep.

I believe the Power of Chaos rule is a bit unnecasery. Correct me if I'm wrong but it's only Eldar that will change how many dice you roll on and ELDAR ARE SUPPOSED TO BE THE BEST PSYKERS IN 40K.
Vessel of the Warp also seems a bit OTT to me, Chaos is more aggressive than defensive and this is slightly over-powered too. By all means add some Psyker protection - always use protection - but they shouldn't be so powerful, particularly in defense.

I admit, Blood Angels, Space Wolf and Imperial Guard codices are similarly over-the-top and over-powered but it wouldn't excuse the Chaos Codex being the same way. Dark Eldar seem fairly balanced and don't have the abilities to do everything and destroy everyone as many of these Chaos Codex opinions seem to lean towards.
Obviously just my opinion, but I'm just trying to help and balance things. I want the Chaos Codex to be good too but I don't want the sun (eye of terror?) to shine out of it's mutated buttocks.

Hope that helps, Dave.

I agree we don't need scouts, I've never read anything about chaos marines using them, and that sort of structured training is a bit too "formal", cultists/whatever can fill that sort of role.

Let's go with that for the sorceror for the moment, we can always tweak it later, and I'm quite pro adding a few more wargear/arcane items for them to use as well.

Typhus being T5 protects him from most ID, i did wonder about letting him regenrate Ws from casualties caused by his psychic power(s) perhaps ? If we keep nurgles rot as an option, with a low S and no AP, i think it would be cool to have him "feed" off of the decay he causes.

Personally I don't think Kharn cuts it as an HQ. I do think his always hit on a 2+ needs to go, but I think soemthing like Ragnars extra A per casualty rule would be cool. I would also like to give him complete immunity to any and all psychic powers, with this benefit being spread to any Khorne aligned unit he is with.. the affect not applying to Ics who join the unit.

I think the issue with the slot free unit is that any such unit is likely to be quite pricey, and therfeore not of much use in a lot of games.

All loyal Librarians have Psychic Hood. Any Farseer can take Runes of Warding. I don't want to limit Chaos Sorerer's to be MOT to get Vessel of Chaos. All Chaos Sorcs should have it. It is the reason to take a Sorcerer instead of a Lord or Daemon Prince. Sure the Daemon Prince is a MC and can cast spells but he does not offer any psychic deterrent.

I don't mind Ahriman getting a warped Rune Staff 4+ dispell (or even 3+) but don't give it as a general option to anyone. The psychic defense of Chaos is well served by psychers killing themselves 1/6 of the time by using their abilities. I know this doesn't stop or make enemies' chance of success any less but somehow the chaos lure of power (using their abilities) causing them to be killed just feels like a true chaos "defence."

The issue with Typhus I believe is that he is T4(5) and not T5. I reckon making him a true T5 in his base profile should protect him against most str8 ID attempts.

This would be a good way to separate him from a "regular" Nurgle lord who would be only T4(5).

candy.man wrote:The issue with Typhus I believe is that he is T4(5) and not T5. I reckon making him a true T5 in his base profile should protect him against most str8 ID attempts.

This would be a good way to separate him from a "regular" Nurgle lord who would be only T4(5).

This. I believe this to be a much better addition to Typhus IMHO.

reds8n wrote: I agree we don't need scouts, I've never read anything about chaos marines using them, and that sort of structured training is a bit too "formal", cultists/whatever can fill that sort of role.

Definitely. Cultists or whatnot will suit Chaos really well, Scouts much less so...

reds8n wrote: Personally I don't think Kharn cuts it as an HQ. I do think his always hit on a 2+ needs to go, but I think soemthing like Ragnars extra A per casualty rule would be cool. I would also like to give him complete immunity to any and all psychic powers, with this benefit being spread to any Khorne aligned unit he is with.. the affect not applying to Ics who join the unit.

I'm still not sure. He's definitely not so much the leader 'type' these days (although he was like 1st Captain in HH), but he's still a pretty damn big character, there's definitely a compelling argument for him as a Bezerker-upgrade but I'm not sold on it yet TBH.
I like his hitting on 2+, after all Khorne is all about martial prowess and killing and this is Kharn we're talking about. I think the Saga of the Warrior Born type idea is also very good and really suits Kharn/Khorne, however on the other hand I don't think he should really be benefitting units he's with. To me, Kharn is a one man killing machine (who should, yes, be immune to all Psychic Powers), but I don't think he's really the kind of guy to provide unit buffs, but maybe that's just me?

I want to give the unit buff to make it less of a no brainer with regards to splitting him off from the squad : if he stays, sure that squad aint getting mindzapped but every 1 you roll is a potential casualty from your own squad as well.

Plus it also fixes or avoids one of the current rules loopholes/arguments about him and squads as well.

The hitting on a 2+ thing bugs the hell out of me : Why is he a better combatant than the Eldar Avatar ?

Typhus at T5 I think is fair, do people think it might be alright to make all plague marines just a basic T5 instead 4(5) ? They are pretty resilient as they are I guess..might be a bit much ?

True, that's a very good point. Maybe something like Immunity for Kharn and 'protection' (ie. 4+) for his squad? I guess thinking about it, compared to the force-hoods that are being suggested, Khorne armies maybe should have more psychic defence after all? I completely agree though, forcing decisions is always good.

I think the hitting on a 2+ suits Kharn well, I think it's more a problem with the Avatar than Kharn. Many things seem to out-class the Avatar in combat which I agree, just isn't fair... Maybe 3+ and the wound=attack bonus?

I have to admit, I think that's maybe a bit much, as you said? I think Typhus being T5 is definitely a good idea, but Plague Marines are good as they are, just maybe need dropping a point or two each?

Lots of good ideas though Red!

I had some ideas and posted a thread a few weeks ago:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/321110.page

Let me know what you think?

I have to agree. Kharn's 2+ isn't really a problem with him, so much as the Avatar needs to be completly reworked in my eyes.

Sorry for the lack of updates, been a busy weekend.

I realize he is long in the past on this thread, but I have something I would like to add to Abby.
The bolter on the Talon of Horus, why not make it to where he can shoot in close combat? I mean it is connected to the Talon and it makes sense.
OR
Have him be able to shoot int he next turns shooting phase, can shoot X amount of times. X is the number of models that he himself has killed.
Think Megatron in TF2(i know lame reference)

Just a note on difilers: they should be able to take marks or be upgradable to cult machines (blood slaughter, blight drone.... ect)

Thanks for the link to this post, yeah, would didn't think to search, would have saved me some time, lol... Anehoo, I'm going to go with the flow of the post and just discuss HQ's for the time being, as that seems to be the trend, I'll post the rest of my ideas later.

I agree so far with many of the posts made, including the fact that the mark system needs to be redone a wee bit.

As far as special characters goes, I think the great majority of them are fine the way they are, though I do like the proposed changes to abbadon, and Ahriman.

I for one think Lucius needs 1 thing, something better than a normal PW (I know his unique thing is his whip, but that's pretty lame as far as "special" weapons go). Granted that's what makes him great because he's cheap, but I feel like a lord with a Blissgiver would outperform him most of the time for even less points. He doesn't need some game-ending weapon, because he's just suposed to be a personality, not some Uber-captain/lord...but he was obviously favored by Slaanesh enough to be made immortal, and he utilizes sonic weaponry so why not give him something unique? He should still be the "bargain character" in the mix, but even something as simple as saying his weapon was poisoned(4+) or something for 10 extra points on him /shrug.

Also...I think they need to focus on some of the other traitor chapters from the first founding, AlphaL, IW, WB and NL could use some love. Seeing as my army is mostly AlphaL (chosen), slaanesh, and nurgle, I could use Lucius or Typhus no prob, but I'd love something to represent as a Lord for my AL...I actually have a character, but no rules for him, I'll post back on that later.

Just a few thoughts I thunked

General CSM Rules

We Shall Teach Them Fear: All Models wishing to charge a Model with this rule must first pass a Ld check, if passed the combat continues as normal, if failed the attacking unit suffers -1 to hit modifier

Specific Traitor Legion Rules

World Bearers: Return of the Dark Apostle choice, May summon one unit of deamons from codex deamons (Troop choices only) per Aspiring Champion

Iron Legion: Return of the Warsmith, CSM units may take 1 additional Heavy weapon than normal, Have a basalisk as a heavy support option.

Alpha Legion: Let them use "Cultists" taken from the Penal Legion option, Secret Base: Nominate one peice of terrain outside opponents deployment zone and not within 12" of an enemy model any model coming in from reserve may do so from that terrain peice.

Black Legion: May take 1 unit of Chosen or Chosen Terminators as a Troop Choice, All CSM gain Fearless

Night Lords: May Take 1 unit of Raptors as a Troop Choice, Opponents in close combat with Night Lords -2 LD

You may have noticed I left out the 4 Main cult Legions, because I feel they are fairly well represented already, as another addendum, it might be nice to let CSM squads buy vetran skills again. Oh, and for gods sake let us just BUY upgrades for possessed instead of rolling on these rediculous tables.

Hi

I’ve thought of a balanced set of rules that would essentially implement legion rules in a new chaos codex. The ruleset is designed in the same fashion as combat tactics in the vanilla codex. For codex balance purposes, all cult marine units have a 0-1 limit. I've also designed a good ruleset for a retinue style unit. Both these rules were inspired by the 3.0 codex (not the 3.5 codex).

Legion Tactics
The following units have Legion Tactics in their profile:
• Khorne Berserkers
• Noise Marines
• Thousand Sons
• Plague Marines
• Chaos Space Marine Battlesquads (Vanilla CSM)
• Chaos Terminators

Legion Tactics (Mark of Khorne): The 0-1 limit on the Khorne Berserkers is removed if army contains HQ with the matching mark. You can only have 1 version of Legion tactics in your entire army and if your army has access to more than one version of Legion Tactics, you must choose which one applies to your entire army.

Legion Tactics (Mark of Slaanesh): The 0-1 limit on the Noise Marines is removed if army contains HQ with the matching mark. You can only have 1 version of Legion tactics in your entire army and if your army has access to more than one version of Legion Tactics, you must choose which one applies to your entire army.

Legion Tactics (Mark of Tzeentch): The 0-1 limit on the Thousand Sons is removed if army contains HQ with the matching mark. You can only have 1 version of Legion tactics in your entire army and if your army has access to more than one version of Legion Tactics, you must choose which one applies to your entire army.

Legion Tactics (Mark of Nurgle): The 0-1 limit on the Plague Marines is removed if army contains HQ with the matching mark. You can only have 1 version of Legion tactics in your entire army and if your army has access to more than one version of Legion Tactics, you must choose which one applies to your entire army.

Legion Tactics (Abaddon): Chaos terminators count as a troop choice if the army is led by Abaddon. You can only have 1 version of Legion tactics in your entire army and if your army has access to more than one version of Legion Tactics, you must choose which one applies to your entire army.

If a Chaos Lord does not purchase a Mark of Chaos, he can purchase one of the following variations of Legion Tactics for x points:
Legion Tactics (Infiltration): All Chaos Space Marine Battle Squads now have the infiltrators rule. You can only have 1 version of Legion Tactics in your entire army and if your army has access to more than one version of Legion Tactics, you must choose which one applies to your entire army.

Legion Tactics (Siege Masters): Any heavy weapons carried by Chaos Space Marine Battle Squads count as being twin linked. You can only have 1 version of Legion Tactics in your entire army and if your army has access to more than one version of Legion Tactics, you must choose which one applies to your entire army.

Legion Tactics (Daemon Cult): All squads count as being equipped with an icon for summoning purposes regardless if the unit has/hasn’t purchased an icon or lost it during a battle. You can only have 1 version of Legion Tactics in your entire army and if your army has access to more than one version of Legion Tactics, you must choose which one applies to your entire army.

Legion Tactics (Fear Factor): All Chaos Space Marine Battle Squads now have the accute senses rule. Enemy units in an assault with a Chaos Space Marine Battle Squad suffer -1 to LD. You can only have 1 version of Legion Tactics in your entire army and if your army has access to more than one version of Legion Tactics, you must choose which one applies to your entire army.

Chaos Lord Retinue Rules
(Available to Chaos Lords and Special Characters)
The Chaos Lord has access to a different retinue depending on his Mark.
• MoK = Khorne Berserkers.
• MoS = Noise Marines
• MoT = Thousand Sons
• MoN = Plague Marines
• No Mark = Chosen (note: Chosen would not have the infiltrators rule in this incarnation and would have something like stubborn or fearless instead)

Any model in the Chaos retinue may purchase any upgrades normally restricted to the unit aspiring champion.

If the character is wearing terminator armour than all models in the unit may be given terminator armour at 15 points per model (note: all models must be upgraded to terminators). Any models given terminator armour replace their bolters, bolt pistols, CC weapons and frag/krak grenades with a power weapon and twin lined bolter. Any specialist wargear items such as blight grenades, inferno bolts and doom sirens are still retained. Models in terminator armour replace their usual wargear options with that of a chaos terminator.

Soemone ealier mentioned that Lucius and Kharn dont really fit as HQs, and i agree.

but i think makign a character that potent a unti upgrade doesn't fit either.

How aboutmakgin some characters Elites with a 0-1 restriction? So Lucius would be a stand alone Character but woudl take up an Elites slot? In this way you could have people liek Lucius and Kharn...maybe other "support" or "personality" units in the army btu still have a specific HQ elsewhere. For example: Chaos "leuitenant units" (I'm thinking a Lords second or lackey sort of thing). A Warsmith might have his favoured Lt who has little things that elevate them above the rank and file troops (a servo-arm in this case). A Word Bearers Apostle could have arranged fo their favourite captain to be "gifted" by a warp creature..

Just brain storming to myself really.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I see the legion tactics above. For the Siege Masters rule, maybe rather than making them TL, grant the ability to reroll scatter on Ordnance weapons?

I had thought of that as well as other things that would affect the heavy support slots or heavy support units in general however I could not think of anything that could be abused like the previous dex or like Vulkan is now (twin linking all melta, flame and hammers army wide is ridiculously broken and a steal at 190 points). Also the issue with having an ability focused on ordinance weapons is that it kind of forces an Iron Warrior’s player to take Vindicators/Defilers (which 90% of Iron Warriors players most likely would but the other 10% much take other heavy support options such as Preds/Landraiders/Oblits instead).

All of the abilities above are based upon the chapter tactics abilities that the loyalists have. It is interesting that the Imperial Fists don’t have a siege based ability (or an attack based ability like Salamanders) and yet Imperial Fists player’s don’t seem to mind and seem to be content with the Stubborn ability.

According to my research, Iron Warriors pre-heresy, were siege masters but they were also specialists who could operate in small numbers. They would be split up into very small numbers and deployed all over whenever a siege was needed. It would be common for 1-2 squads would maintain an entire fortress. This was the inspiration for my idea and the thought that even a lone heavy weapon in an isolated tactical squad could be deadly if they were Iron Warriors.

The bottom line is that there needs to be some sort of incentive for an Iron Warriors player to take a heavy weapon in their tactical squads over dual special weapons rather than increase the incentive to take more mech in a mech heavy environment (there’s plenty incentive for that already). It is not that fluffy for an Iron Warriors player to choose an assault weapon over a heavy weapon whenever possible. Iron Warrior tactics should always something along the lines of deploying fire support squads in cover whilst crush their opponents in a wall of armour rather than the current tactic of popping tanks with melta + assaulting the leftovers with a power fist that the current book encourages.

Anyway, sorry for the long post but I hope this sheds some light into my decision making.

+1 to candy.man's train of thought.

There is currently no reason at all for chaos marines to take a heavy weapon when they cost more than loyalist weapons and make them less effective. Giving chaos a buff for heavy weapons gives chaos marines a different dimension, rather than the usuall double melta rhino rush or double plasma plague marine spam. Giving Iron Warriors a benefit to ordnance weapons is also a big plus in my mind. This makes defilers and vindicators worth their cost.

Candy.man has it on point. Agree with everything he said, except I think siege masters should grant havoc units with 5BS as well as twin-linked weapons.

I probably won’t give them BS5 as it would make them too good. From a game play perspective, few rank and file units are ever given BS5 and I don’t think that is going to change. From a fluff perspective, Iron Warriors appear to be the masters of siege warfare and associated tactics and but not necessarily having better aim/accuracy than other marines. I believe it’s a case of the Iron Warriors being smarter but not necessarily physically superior.

I’m a bit hesitant about giving havocs the twin linked ability as well as if havocs were to be costed as cheaply as BA Devastators or Space Wolf Long Fangs, it would result in pretty much the same negative uproar that Long Fang spam created (Iron Warrior Players would probably start spamming twin Linked autocannon death on everyone). I would suspect that. Perhaps if Chaos Havocs were priced the same as the Vanilla Space Marine book and not as ultra cheap as Long Fangs, there might not be too much of an issue to give Chaos Havocs, siege masters.

Vanilla Marine Codex costing
• Heavy bolter, multi melta, missile launcher: 15 points
• Plasma Cannon: 25 points
• Lascannon: 35 points

Long Fangs costings
• Heavy Bolter: 5 points
• Missile launcher and multi melta: 10 points
• Plasma Cannon: 20 points
• Lascannon: 25 points

Proposed Chaos Havocs costings
• Flamer, sonic blaster (slaanesh only): 5 points
• Heavy Bolter, melta gun: 10 points
• Missile launcher, plasma gun and autocannon: 15 points
• Blastmaster (slaanesh only): 25 points
• Lascannon or: 30 points

@ Candyman

I stand corrected. Makes more sense now.

Not sure if a non Slaaneshi Havoc should be allowed to take a Sonic Weapon. I like where you are going with it though.

Maybe access to the Plasma Cannon and Multimelta would be cool?

/agree.

Sonic weaposn should be for Slaaneshi only. You will get peopel crying because their Nurgle/Khorne army doesn't et special stuff but thats life (Tzeentch-ists would be able to buy Inferno Bolts for AC and HBs i suppose)

Yeah, sonic weapons would be Slaanesh only. I added the weapons onto the list for lols. I'll update my previous post to reflect this.

As a side note, I felt Slaanesh havocs should get noise weapons so I added them. I also used a system of equivalency (with the 5th ed loyalist books as a template) where the blastmaster is filling in the empty gap normally filled by the plasma cannon in the loyalist books.

Lots of little updates. I think every character posted so far has been fiddled with to a small degree to bring more in line with suggestions.

candy.man wrote:

Vanilla Marine Codex costing
• Heavy bolter, multi melta, missile launcher: 15 points
• Plasma Cannon: 25 points
• Lascannon: 35 points

Long Fangs costings
• Heavy Bolter: 5 points
• Missile launcher and multi melta: 10 points
• Plasma Cannon: 20 points
• Lascannon: 25 points

Proposed Chaos Havocs costings
• Flamer, sonic blaster (slaanesh only): 5 points
• Heavy Bolter, melta gun: 10 points
• Missile launcher, plasma gun and autocannon: 15 points
• Blastmaster (slaanesh only): 25 points
• Lascannon or: 30 points

Not bad on proposal but I would prefer a little cheaper. Remember vanilla marines have a sgt that can grant BS 5 to one guy and Long Fangs can split fire. For me it is the combo of split fire and cheap cost that makes long fangs too OP. The vanilla ability means a vanilla dev with a MM or lascannon can almost guarantee one hit. The chaos havoc has no such advantage. Their one advantage is the better base leadership and the possible advantage of a mark which is lessened in the case of a havoc unit.

Modified Havocs:

> Flamer, Heavy Bolter 5 pts
> Melta gun 10 pts
> Missile launcher, Plasma, AC 15 pts
> Lascannon 25 pts.

Slannesh noise marines cost 5 pts over a standard CSM and have sonic blaster for free. Go back to the old codex for blast master, replacing an AC. A sonic blaster is nothing more than a suped up stormbolter. The payback is you also lose the bolt pistol and CCW so you do give up 1 CC attack for the superior fire of a sonic blaster.

Difference a Slaanesh Havoc unit of 9 with 4 blast masters costs 305. My way it costs 240. That is still not cheap but my arguement is give me a reason to field havocs instead of dakka preds, obliterators, vindicators or defilers. At 240, I would still question whether 4 blastmasters and 5 sonic blasters are superior to affording 3 dakka preds for a little more or 3 obliterators for a little less.

As far as Noise marines getting unfair advantages over others. I would beg to differ. Khorites are still masters of CC, 4++ save and AP3 bolter rounds are pretty good for Tzeentch, FNP and +1 T makes Nurgle the most resilient. Tzeetch could use cheaper sorcerers at least and berzerkers maybe recosting but the trade off of losing some CC power is enough of an offset for a sonic blaster.

I agree that noise marines need some more balance, and I think that BM's need to be cheaper and that they need to come with SB's standard, but I'm not sure taking away their ccw is the way to go.

If you look at them now they are decent at melee because they can deliver a large amount of fire (though nothing really stronger than a bolter and not including the DS that the champions field, I'm talking about the unit in general) and then charge into combat with 3A apiece and a champ with a pw. However, they lack the furious charge of the zerkers, and the weapon options of chosen (which I think need 2 attacks base btw). They are a decent cc unit who's biggest strength in cc is their I5. If you take away their ccw then you get a unit which is decent at shooting, sub par in melee, and you're wasting the I5 advantage in most cases.

As it stands, noise marines are somewhat versatile, but lack a lot of hitting power/survivability of the other pantheon units. They need balance, but if you go by the fluff they should be better in cc than most marines while delivering "unique" firepower options...not an easy thing to materialize effectively in the game without them being over/under powered or out of place.

candy.man wrote:

The bottom line is that there needs to be some sort of incentive for an Iron Warriors player to take a heavy weapon in their tactical squads over dual special weapons rather than increase the incentive to take more mech in a mech heavy environment (there’s plenty incentive for that already). It is not that fluffy for an Iron Warriors player to choose an assault weapon over a heavy weapon whenever possible. Iron Warrior tactics should always something along the lines of deploying fire support squads in cover whilst crush their opponents in a wall of armour rather than the current tactic of popping tanks with melta + assaulting the leftovers with a power fist that the current book encourages.

The biggest problem with heavy weapons is that you have to stay still to use them, so maybe giving the squad relentless would be better.

As far as alteration to the FoC are concerned, having havocs as troops or obliterators as elites is far too powerful. Enabling IW to take 1 heavy choice in an elite slot would be less so, while still maintaining flavour.

As far as Kharn goes, he's meant to be one of the ultimate embodiments of khorne. During the siege of terra, when he finally fell at the gates of the emperors palace, it was ontop of a 30ft high pile of bodies that he had personally slain himself. Seeing him relegated to a mere upgrade character, or even an elite character, would be a sad day indeed.

I think chosen need to be reworked so they actually reflect thier fluff. 10,000 year only marines that are no different from regular ones, except they can hide better, does not scream planetary overlords. Making them fearless and giving them +1WS and +1 attack (with a relevant price increase) would be a start.

Dreads should also be able to take marks too. They are entombed chaos marines, some of whom were presumably dedicated to a chaos god at some point. The marks as they are at the moment apply quite nicely to dreads, except nurgle:

Khorne: +1 Attack
Tzneetch: 6+ Inv save
Nurgle: +1 Front Armour
Slaanesh: +1 Initiative

Disregarding 'Crazed', all of those dreads are interesting and quite good.

I'm not crazy about those dreadnought marks.

K: +1 ws and +1 A
T: +1 BS, 6+ save
S: +1 initiative, +1A
N: +1 armour all sides, poisoned attacks 2+

there. Much cooler.

@Regwon
Relentless would be too good as the bolters equipped on the rest of the squad would have a 30” threat range. Plasma guns would also have a 30” threat range and Iron Warrior Players would most likely take dual plasma guns over heavy weapons in the relentless scenario.

Fluff wise, Iron warriors would sit in the cover of a giant fortress and maintain a siege. There isn’t anything in their fluff to suggest they are more physically superior than a normal marine (to the point where they are able to move and fire heavy weapons), only that they are more skilled as far as siegetactics are concerned.

Not being able to move and fire heavy weapons is not necessarily a bad thing as Long Fangs/SM Devastators cope quite well. Give the squad a rhino would give the squad all the mobility they need (and deserve) as far as move + fire is concerned. As far as legion rules are concerned, they should be fairly low key and similar in nature to chapter tactics in the sense that they provide a small benefit but not a major one (like my legion tactics idea above).


As far as dreadnaught marks are concerned. Here is my interpretation:

Khorne: +1 WS and +1 A
Tzeentch: Ability to select a single psychic power (i.e. MoT turns dread into a psyker dread).
Slaanesh: +1 I and Fleet (Daemonettes have the fleet rule so I can see it having a home here)
Nurgle: Vulnerable ability (makes the dreadnaught harder to kill which fits in with the Nurgle fluff very well)