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The old iron warriors army list was 4 heavy support slots and then 3 sets of obliterators as elites. All of the other characters made something a troops choice. How about the Iron Warriors Character makes Havocs troops and Obliterators Elite?

I like that, although do you mean obliterators are both elites and heavy support? Or just elites?

I like the idea of Havocs as troops and Obliterators are Elites.

But that'd probably overpower them.

Picture this. 4 Havoc Squads. 3 Obliterator Squads. 3 Vindicators.

Is that really fair?

Just elite for obilterators

Actually with an iron warriors Lord and Character you could have maximum 4 vindicators, 5 Havoc squads, and 3 Obliterators

Its less worse than some things I've seen, and it has distinct disadvantages in mellee.... (Not saying its right, just saying its less wrong...)

Liking some of the things in here.

...Night lords - considering ALL raptors have those crazy scremer things to DEMORALISE enemies. they should get some bonus for that. Night lords get stuff like chaos land speeders, etc.

jp400 wrote:I have seen lots, and lots of CSM threads on here about what people would like to see in a new CSM codex. However, one thing I have yet to see (or seen in any serious attempt) is anyone actually post and discuss various stats for these upgrades.

So lets have a civil go, shall we?

First off, we need somewhere to start. Characters are fairly straight forward and simple, so lets start here.

Here is my take on fixing Abby:

Cons: High base cost compared to newer codex hero's, has the ability to neuter himself on a bad roll, not near as tough as he once was compared to newer characters.

Abaddon

(Same Base Stats)
(Patron God: Undivided)

Cost: 250 Points

Wargear: Termi Ar, Personal Icon, Drach'nyen, Talon Of Horus

Special Rules: Fearless, IC,

Mark Of Chaos Ascendant:
*Insert Fluff here*
Abby counts as haveing every chaos mark. Thus gets every chaos mark bonus (include in profile).

The Gods Have A Plan:
Abby has been chosen by all four chaos gods, and his uncanny ability to walk away from horiffic battles without a scratch on him is proof that they are protecting him so he can fight another day.

Gives Abby a 3+ inv save (which includes the MOT +1) and makes him immune to instant death and all psychic attacks/effects.

Drach'nyen and Talon Of Horus:
*Insert Fluff*
The effect of these two weapons combined means that Abby counts as being equiped with a daemon weapon (+D6 attacks) that doubles his strength instead of the normal +1, and may re roll failed "To Wound" rolls in combat. Talon Of Horus has a built in bolter of Ancient Design and in the shooting phase may be fired useing the following profile:
Range 12, Str 4, AP 5, assault 3

Legendary Warmaster:
*Insert Fluff*
Abbys daemon weapon on a roll of 1 doesn't attack him. Instead he may only attack with his base attacks and gets no additional attacks that turn as he grapples with control of the weapon. Also even the sight of the Warmaster striding toward them across the battlefield is enough to make grown men cower in fear. All enemy Leadership checks within 12 inches of the warmaster are at -1.

Discuss away.

Abaddon doesn't need anything else. He's an obnoxiously good SC as is.


We need to go back to our roots. USE THE 3RD EDITION CODEX if you're unhappy with what we have. I own one. Best purchase I've ever made. Other than Rhino's being 50 points, the codex was amazing.


I want:
Moar daemons
Storm Bolters
Every model in a havoc squad can take a special weapon, not just three of them.
Land raiders with some sort of POTMS
An 'armoury'
Veterans can take anything from the armoury^^^^Like 3rd....


Chaos Lords should be able to take more than one mark too. I see no reason why a Chaos Lord shouldn't be able to pledge himself to Khorne and Nurgle...Or khorne and tzeentch...whatever you want..Also CHAOS MARKS! would I pay 40 points for another toughness? Maybe 10 points or so.NOT 50!


Aspiring champions should only be like 5 points more than a regular guy..An extra attack is not worth that much.

There are so many problems.....It's not worth complaining about.

Samus_aran115 wrote:
Chaos Lords should be able to take more than one mark too. I see no reason why a Chaos Lord shouldn't be able to pledge himself to Khorne and Nurgle...Or khorne and tzeentch...whatever you want..Also CHAOS MARKS! would I pay 40 points for another toughness? Maybe 10 points or so.NOT 50!

There's a very good reason why you can't take more than one mark, and it's becuse the 4 gods of chaos dont like each other very much and are constantly struggling amongst themselfs for power. If a Chaos Marines tried to pledge himself to both Khorne and Tzeentch at the same time he'd probably be destroyed for his folly (nevermind that tzeentch and khorne HATES each other most of all gods).

I know your trying to keep on topic with SC's,So I dont want to try to throgh off the thread to much. I did write up some new Chaos Vehicle rules. You can check them out here.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/287518.page#1460075

Limbo wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:
Chaos Lords should be able to take more than one mark too. I see no reason why a Chaos Lord shouldn't be able to pledge himself to Khorne and Nurgle...Or khorne and tzeentch...whatever you want..Also CHAOS MARKS! would I pay 40 points for another toughness? Maybe 10 points or so.NOT 50!

There's a very good reason why you can't take more than one mark, and it's becuse the 4 gods of chaos dont like each other very much and are constantly struggling amongst themselfs for power. If a Chaos Marines tried to pledge himself to both Khorne and Tzeentch at the same time he'd probably be destroyed for his folly (nevermind that tzeentch and khorne HATES each other most of all gods).

That's true....Khorne does indeed hate everyone.

I wish they still had the minor gods fluff. Like ma'lal, the god of spikes. He was way awesome.

svendrex wrote:Just elite for obilterators

Actually with an iron warriors Lord and Character you could have maximum 4 vindicators, 5 Havoc squads, and 3 Obliterators

This is horse flop. It's what ruined the last codex, and it'll ruin all credibility on this one. Why not JUST take havocs or oblits as troops. Neither are particularly overpowered as they stand. The havocs will be just as good as ig vets, and the blits will lose in melee something fierce. Seriously, do not dick us on this proposed codex IW.

Abaddon is abundantly terrible currently and under the new rules I actually might take him at some point.

Although I entirely agree the third edition dex is where we should start, hell if we fixed all the problems it had we'd make a solid codex, I'll make another thread so we can discuss fixing that while this one can try to save that abortion of a new one.(Not worth it imho)


(Also bedamned censoring.)

Huron Blackheart needs a new model. The current one is an abomination.

some interesting idea's here guys, but try to rember too many rules clutter up a codex.

as to iron warrions, im suprised no one considered just giving them +1 to any builings cover save AND defensive grenades across the board.

this oblits as troops is simply a bad idea, 54 twin linked heavy bolter shots a turn vs Orks or Nids? or 18 lascannon vs mech guard? and this is just the troops, you can add another 9 oblits for elites in bigger games, add in the proposed T6 that someone said? no justification can condone the vast exodus of tourny players that WILL run this list

Lord (iron warrior)
80

Troops
3 oblits
3oblits
3oblits
3oblits
3oblits

Elites
1 oblit
1 oblit
1 oblit

Work within the limitations - I think this sounds very OP with Oblits or Havocs.

What I could accept would be something minor like CSM for Iron Warriors being able to take 2 HW instead of 1 SW and 1 SW/HW for squad of 10. This would increase the HW even allowing squads of 5 with 1 HW. Not OP but allowing for their specialization.

Allowing oblits as Elites or possibly allowing any current Heavy choice as a replacement for Fast Attack would set the tone of an iron warrior army without the straight jacket
of moving anything around.

18 models? I can take on that

DAaddict wrote:Work within the limitations - I think this sounds very OP with Oblits or Havocs.

What I could accept would be something minor like CSM for Iron Warriors being able to take 2 HW instead of 1 SW and 1 SW/HW for squad of 10. This would increase the HW even allowing squads of 5 with 1 HW. Not OP but allowing for their specialization.

Allowing oblits as Elites or possibly allowing any current Heavy choice as a replacement for Fast Attack would set the tone of an iron warrior army without the straight jacket
of moving anything around.

+1 to this idea. Personally I reckon all legion rules can be easily implemented via some sort of low weight modification to the troop slot in the same fashion as the Vanilla Marines codex.

Iron Warriors Lord = 2X HW CSM battle squads
Night Lords HQ = Raptor Troops
Alpha Legion lord = Able to use Chaos cultists
Word Bearers HQ = something to do with daemons
Khorne HQ= Berserker troops
Tzeetnch HQ= Tsons troops
Nurgle HQ= Plague Marine troops
Slaanesh HQ= Noise marine troops
Black Legion HQ = Able to take 0-2 Legion/Cult specific troop choices

Cultists were all the rage last edition because Alpha Legion could use an abundance of chosen and normal squads with infiltrate. So you'd have the little dudes running amuck backed by very powerful squads of traitor marines.

Alpha Legion should follow the example by having chosen as troops(in the very least otherwise 60% of your force deploys way back with unsupported cultists eating bullets). Or give the Chaos Space Marine codex entry infiltrate for a point a model or something, though chosen as troops makes far more sense.

TYPHUS:
(Same Base Stats, but make him true T5)
(Patron God: Nurgle)

Cost: 205 Pts

KHARN:
(Same Base Stats)
(Patron God: Khorne)

Cost: 165 Pts

Cons: Same as above. He is pretty solid right now with how he is. The only thing I could think of doing is maybe giving him the chaos version of Artificer Armor thus upping him to a 2+ save base. This of course would increast his base point cost a little bit. (thinking 175 pts)

AHRIMAN:
(Same Base Stats)
(Patron God: Tzeentch)

Cost: 240 Pts

Cons: He is supposed to be the best psyker known, and compared to the new loyalist psykers... he sucks. How can we fix this? I feel that if we give him better spells, more selection, and the ability to protect his side from enemy psykers would make him very attractive to players.

Master Of Sorcery: Allows him the ability to cast any spell in the Chaos Codex. (will be updated later when I hit on the chaos spells)

The Black Staff Of Ahriman: Same as before But add the line "Also whenever an enemy model succeeds on a psychic test within 24" of Ahriman, On a D6 roll of 4+ that power is ignored.

Inferno Bolts: Same as Before

Helm Of Eternal Silence: Any unit that Ahriman joins gains immunity to ALL psychic spells and weapons.

I appreciate the enthusiasm shown by so many people here and their myriad of ideas, however the Op has suggested that rather than employing such a wide scattergun approach to the codex, a more measured and logical procession through the codex would be better.
In that spirit :

I like most of the Abaddon stuff, I would simply clarify him as having eternal warrior, and I would also have him grant fearless to any squad he joins as well..that's always been a bug bear of mine of him currently.

When I looked at doing something like this I took some inspiration from the ork codex and the idea that certain selections "unlocked" or moved a ( single) unit from one slot to another. To this end how about Abaddon being taken as an HQ choice allows a single unit of Chaos Chosen ( including terminators assuming we're leaving them as a single option ) to be allowed to be taken as a troops choice. This represents the hardened inner core of veterans he keeps close as his praetorian guard/people he needs to keep an eye on.

I'd be tempted to follow up on this idea some what : so a Night Lords HQ might allow 1 unit of raptors as a troops choice, an IW guy might unlock a Vindicator/basilisk/obliterators as a troops choice and so on.

Fabius looks like he's going in the right direction. Given what we learn in the DE codex I think "borrowing" ideas from their codex is a good idea indeed. I might be tempted to have as an option units of disfigured mutant monsters as a unit as well.

Kharn I don't think fits as an HQ choice -- same as Lucius. I think they should both in fact be upgrade characters for their unit types.

I agree Ahriman needs some kind of psychic hood..I'd be tempted to go all out and simply claim his Black Staff is in fact a corrupted Space Wolf Rune priest staff and follow the rules for that -- ie it can dispel psychic p[owers and "magical" shooting attacks with X distance on a 4+/whatever.

I'd also be tempted to give him some rerolling capability in some fashion or other.. bit like Corbulo. I might even go so far as to give him 1 reroll per player turn.

If Typhus is raising his price, might he raise his Invul to a 4+?

As psychic abilities have increased in lethality, the weakness of chaos sorcerers to me is they have no anti-psychic.

Bugs, Eldar: Passive 3d6 makes success less likely.
SW, SM, etc: Rune Staff and Psychic Hood shut down psychic abilities.

I would like to see chaos sorcerers go to a more active anti-psycher role - something like a 24" range eldar mind war against anyone using a psychic ability. Maybe limit it to causing an equivalent of a warp attack normally reserved to a failure. So it only causes 1 wound and can be saved by some invulnerable (rerolled) or ghost helm.

Librarians can now cast two spells a turn which in itself leaves chaos sorcerers in the dust. This ability somewhat redresses that by making it dangerous to count on psychic abilities when a chaos sorcerer - a vessel of the warp - is nearby.

So to go on that, Ahriman packing this ability, a 4+ rune staff negate and then casting two or more spells is quite disgusting. One I would suggest for him would be a permanently up Warptime. No roll for success, it is automatic just like Typhus with Nurgle spells.

Hmm, I like your idea on kharne and lucius Reds8n..So you're saying they can be sort of like aspiring champions for their respective cult unit?

The only problem I can see with that is that people would abuse Kharne in almost every list without even having to waste a slot on him. Right now, it's usually a toss-up between Kharne and a DP, or two DPs. Having all three might be a little over-powered, even if kharne is tied down to a unit of berserkers.


Othewise, it seems like a great idea, and makes a little more sense. It's sort of like the IG model, where you can have random dudes join your Company Command squads and stuff.

Almost, I was thinking more along the lines of some of the Space Wolf characters. But I think it would be reasonable to restrict it so you can only have them or a regular champion in the unit, not both.

Kharn doesn't really strike me as being more powerful/useful than *blankshisname* the Wolfguard guy with the thunderhammer.

And neither Kharn or Lucius kind of scream leader -- in the tactical sense anyway -- to me. Being a bit too frenzied/bloodthirsty and...twisted and out there respectively.

Regarding chaos sorcorors:

I've been thinking for the longest time that (fluff wise and game wise) they have been completely forgotten. To make it more realistic:

Remembering that a chaos god would not be too keen to let one of his minions kill another of his minions, and PoTW is... getting mindraped by a daemon... Chaos sorcorors are considered to have a 2++ ONLY FOR PoTW TESTS!
And they don't need to reroll sucessfull tests (maybe can even reroll failed tests?)

Ofcourse, better spells, I.E. Crazy chaos mindrape -sorceror locates an enemy psyker, and sends a bolt of psychic energy at him/her. this psychic energy attracts sentinent beings in the warp to the enemy psycher, making drawing on the power of the warp incredubly dangerous for a shor time. model must take psychic tests on 4D6 for the entirity of its next turn.

Power of Chaos!:
Sorceror ALWAYS takes psychic tests on 2D6 regardless of other special rules, etc.

I like the Power of Chaos boost.

How about a passive ability ala psychic hood.

Vessel of the Warp:
Any opponent attempting to cast a spell and within 24" of a chaos sorcerer will suffer a perils result on any roll of doubles. This takes a perils result from 1 in 18 to 1 in 6. Even more vicious if some thing allows or forces 3d6 for a psychic test. (Shadow or Runes of Witnessing)

Abaddon Upgraded.

Abaddon: If anyone would be willing to un-clutter his Legendary Warmaster skill and make it more slimlined, that would be great.

Kharn: The only problem I see with makeing him a squad upgrade, is that people lose the choice to run him single so he doesn't slaughter his own men. Thoughts?

Ahriman: I do not have the space puppy codex handy, so if someone would be willing be willing to write something up like Red suggested, I would be willing to post it. Also an interesting idea... stealing an idea from WFB, what if his staff instead of giving a re-roll, generated a D6 each player turn that went into a pool and could be used to boost any psychic test.. either for casting, or for psychic hood ect ect.

Now, I really like Power of Chaos and Vessel of the Warp. Now what if, instead of giving these to a special character, we made is a Tzeench special rule for any psyker with his mark?
This would really boost Thousand Sons and make them a much needed anti psyker army to balance out some of the power creep.

Something I havent seen or heard yet regarding Tzeentch and psyker powers is the idea of unit buffs.

Fluff often talks about how the dark gods would bless choosen warriors and what not. Is it to far fetched to have Ahriman be able to cast spells on friendly units? I was thinking about a variance of powers one of them being akin to re-rolling to hit when shooting, or +2 attacks on the turn said unit charges instead of +1.

Here's an idea I had for a psychic power:

*name left intentionally blank*
Make a psychic test before your shooting phase. If you pass, choose a unit within 24' of the caster. This unit raises it's ballistic skill by one for the remainder of the turn.

Something to do with tzeentch, I guess. Or just undivided chaos. I was thinking it would be pretty useful to use on campy units, like Havocs, or Obliterators.

What do you guys think? I'm sorry if this "Off topic' concerning what you guys are talking about now.

jp400 wrote:Abaddon Upgraded.

Abaddon: If anyone would be willing to un-clutter his Legendary Warmaster skill and make it more slimlined, that would be great.

Kharn: The only problem I see with makeing him a squad upgrade, is that people lose the choice to run him single so he doesn't slaughter his own men. Thoughts?

and.. Khorne cares not from where the blood flows ! I did consider making a squad of either 8 or 16 berzerkers a retinue for him..but I think that might be a bit much and..well..he doesn't need to hide. I think it would be fine if it was simply stated that ( with him still being an IC still) he has to deploy/arrive with the berzerkers but after that he can indeed wander off and do his own thing..perhaps even to the relief of his brethren.

No love for a unit of chosen/whatever as a troops choice if you take Abaddon then ?

Ahriman: I do not have the space puppy codex handy, so if someone would be willing be willing to write something up like Red suggested, I would be willing to post it. Also an interesting idea... stealing an idea from WFB, what if his staff instead of giving a re-roll, generated a D6 each player turn that went into a pool and could be used to boost any psychic test.. either for casting, or for psychic hood etc etc.

The book reads : "Whenever an enemy model succeeds on a psychic test within 24" of the bearer,roll a dice -- on the roll of a 4+ that power is nullified."

There's some stuff about wounding demons on a 2+ but I think we can live without that.

Now, I really like Power of Chaos and Vessel of the Warp. Now what if, instead of giving these to a special character, we made is a Tzeench special rule for any psyker with his mark?
This would really boost Thousand Sons and make them a much needed anti psyker army to balance out some of the power creep.

I agree the sorcerers need something.
I think the "power of chaos" rule is workable, it still leaves them a chance of failing -- you can't trust the chaos gods too much after all.

I think the vessel idea is kinda cool, but might be a bit too much of a nerf.. unless we maybe make that an option for the sorcerer to buy ? It could be some arcane item or somesuch and goes some way towards helping make the sorcerer's more of a supporting unit rather than simply a less effective version of the lord/s.

Oh, perhaps we should do this now :

The army as a whole -- characters excluded

HQ :
Demon prince
Chaos Lord
Chaos Sorcerer -- maybe have the option of 2 levels/options here ?
Special characters

Elites :
Chaos Chosen
Chaos terminators -- I've split these as I think it would be cool for chaos lords to unlock a unit of chosen as a troops choice, Abaddon allowing a unit of termies as one --"Justarian" or whatever they were called.
Possessed -- maybe if you have a top tier sorcerer 1 unit of these as a troops choice ? Nod towards WB and the like here perhaps.
Chaos Dreads -- might go in heavy..but that's crowded already.

Troops :
Chaos marines
The 4 cult units.
Cultists -- "free" force org choices -- maybe an Alpha Legion character could make them scoring/similar.

Heavy :
Oblits.
Predators
Vindicators
Land Raiders
Defilers
Havocs

Fast :
Raptors
bikes

????

Needs something here ? Chaos speeders ? Attack bikes ? Something new ?

I'd be tempted to keep daemons as they are.. except allow you buy a mark for them that alters their profile(s).

This same mark would also be available to non cult units as well ; something like Khorne -- +1A and FC. Nurgle +1T and FnP, Tz. +1 ++ save ( or a 5+ basic invuln) and AP3 inferno shells ( not sure about this one ?) Slaanesh +1I and..fleet ?

I appreciate I've ignored my own advice here and gone slightly OT, but I think a skeleton to hang the meat on is a useful thing perhaps.

Just to note somthing, making Abbandons gun rapid fire or assault makes no difference, he has terminator armour, and is therefor granted the 'Relentless' special rule.

Also I'd make the bolter 18" range, but then again thats just me thinking an anceint super bolter, with the range of a pistol is a bad idea.

Also, why not give the Chaos some scout type subsitiute, I can espically see the Alpha Legion deploying snipers into a tower, to kill enemy commanders at the precise moment to cause optimal moral devistation.