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Phryxis wrote:Your argument seem to be internally conflicted. You want to have all the bullies act out of character. Because, let's face it, NOT bullying is actually out of character for kids. And there's also a lot of them yet you seem to think that ALL their behavioral issues can be addressed...

I am not sure why you think that. More often than not bullies are a very small minority. From what I have seen the bullies are usually more of a minority than their targets.

And yet the issues of the victim can't? It's ONE person. It's also one person who, generally, is legitimately "odd" compared to the other kids.

Again, NOT trying to blame the victim, I'm simply saying that it seems that a great majority of the time, the most practical fix is with the victim. Why is the victim wearing pink? Why does he feel a need to act out that way? The victim is an immigrant, and they need help fitting in, adjusting to the culture.

This seems like a very simplistic view. No offense intended. I do not see the solution being with the victim when such a solution empowers individual bullies to directly effect many peoples lives. Adjusting to whose culture? The larger culture of 'not being poor, weird, or an immigrant'? Dunno bout that.

At the end of the day, you have to decide if you want "justice done" or if you just want injustice to be reduced.

There's a cinematic appeal to the former, but the latter is both more realistic and better for all involved.

I still don't see how that is the case. You're saying that it is not good to blame the targets of bullying, but your solution is to give bullies real power.

I'll give a real bully a fething 2x4 to the head. That sounds good to me, fella in pink can be as pink as he wants.

Think about it... Are you going to have somebody follow this victim around, protecting them from each and every person that might potentially mistreat them? Giving little sermons about emptathy to every kid they run across? It's unrealistic.

I would simply step into situations where I can obviously make a difference. The extent of that in some situations might be no more than calling the police, as running in with a sledgehammer to save the day... isn't really the best idea. But yeah, I don't think you're position is particularly realistic either.

It's also foolish if the victim really NEEDS help. You should help the victim, not try to go around teaching every single person that they meet how to work around that person's need for help.

I think I may be reading too far into what I think you are saying in this post. It seems like you are saying that the best option is for people to hide themselves from bullies. I don't think that actually works in most situations. In a situation where a bully has targeted a specific individual and also suffers from mental illness themselves, there isn't very much compromise. There is one side and the other. One person is being picked on and should not be told to hide out of fear. In many cases that literally means leaving school, and children that are bullied do this more often than you would think.

One person has a psychological predisposition to run from threats. Not all that crazy IMO, and it is the path most travelled by targets of bullies.

The other person has a psychological disposition to be a threat to those that would run. I know whose side I am on. It isn't this side, and I consider this kind of disorder something that should be addressed more promptly that the former. Given that such an individual causes others to commit suicide that would not have otherwise; these 'bullies' should be dealt with first as they have the potential to force many towards suicide. They should be treated as a threat to their classmates.

It's not the victim's FAULT that they need help. But they still need it.

They do need help and in many situations I think that people do help. Not as often as they should.

The bullies need help as well. IMO, nearly as much help as those who would kill themselves in reaction to bullying.

I believe that bullies should be the focus of this issue, not their targets. The solution can come from both sides but I do not feel that the targets of bullies should be held responsible for the intolerable nature of what is often no more than a single angry child. I do not want that individual child to have socially acceptable power over their class mates. Those kids need help before they really hurt someone.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:We appear to be raising some pretty fragile kids these days.

QFT.

I get it, it's hard, and though I'm definitely not a parent, and don't understand the issues behind it, but bullies shouldn't be hard to overcome...

But yes, bullies need to be dealt with nonetheless, but if a bully causes them to end their lives, I can't imagine what they'd do if their significant other left...

I caught a fair amount of gak as a kid, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't dish out a bit as well.

Without knowing more about the story, I can only wonder if the bullying is worse at this school than others, or if there is a higher propensity for mental illness in this area.

Those are the only things that make sense to me, granted it's completely speculative.

Phryxis wrote:I'd imagine that the average Bosnian is fairly "tough." Also, even if she's Americanized, her parents are thoroughly Bosnian, which suggests to be that this isn't really an issue of America raising soft kids.

It certainly is tempting to think so, given everything we see going on with helicopter parents, sensitivity training and the like, but it doesn't really add up.

I'm thinking that it has less to do with the kids being "tough", and more to do with the kids having a lack of options through which they could avoid the people who are tormenting them, or otherwise adapt to the situation. Alternatively, the perception may be that they lack options, even if these options actually do exist. Perhaps an expectation for things to be handled systematically is partially destructive, as it kills individual initiative on the part of the victim or parents? Or perhaps there's an irrational belief that poor social relations need to become good social relations, rather than simply end entirely?

I dunno, just musing.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I'm thinking that it has less to do with the kids being "tough", and more to do with the kids having a lack of options through which they could avoid the people who are tormenting them, or otherwise adapt to the situation.

There are options but they are not automatically available to all kids. Some people aren't that good at writing or math, and others aren't that good at working around bullies.

Alternatively, the perception may be that they lack options, even if these options actually do exist. Perhaps an expectation for things to be handled systematically is partially destructive, as it kills individual initiative on the part of the victim or parents?

Hit the bully in the head with a brick? That could be a decent option.

Anyway, I think there are some options available to parents while most others are unavailable to their children. The best a kid can be expected to do is report a situation. It could be that their are a lot of options available to parents, but it those option don't seem to be working. Just because they exist doesn't mean they work.

On that same point, and back to my 'brick to the head option' I think that you'll find most individual initiative on the part of parents to be poorly planned. I would assume that many parents would not deal particularly well with bullies when left to their own methods. It could be messy. I'm just warning you.

Or perhaps there's an irrational belief that poor social relations need to become good social relations, rather than simply end entirely?

Hmm. Could you expand a bit more on this? I'm not sure what kind of solution this would present.

I dunno, just musing.

You should do a bit more of that.

TheBlackVanguard wrote:I was bullied because I came from a ho dunk, redneck, small town, and I had long hair and listened to metal. If you didn't play sports at my school you had to dress like a cowboy and listen to country or nobody liked you and you became an outcast.

How did I fix it? I pulled a knife on the first kid to really try to physically bully me (He tried to hit me with his truck once when I was crossing the street in front of school) after that I was left alone, much like many of the stories given here.

What does this say? Either parents, kids, or teachers, need to Man Up and quit caring about being PC and address the real issues.

That being said for someone to commit suicide over bullying is a complete overreaction which means theres something else going on.

This guy wins. :thumsup:

I swear, what is wrong with some kids...Not you quotee

Some interesting things about bullying from what i've seen

- Every bully is different , the reasons why they bully in the first place are all different.

- Bullys arnt all dumb , they certainly can easily lie to teachers, especially if a group of them gets to cover each other's alibi ( so going to teacher wont always help , because it it fails , it gets worse )

- Not striking back = have bullies that give up? Maybe for some , certainly not for all. Some bullies feed off the weak , and bully "because they can" this type of mentality
is easily seen everywhere. They literally love a sand bag to vent their frustrations thus none retorting target = the perfect target.
Yet of course there are also the other type that others have mentioned in this thread , the sadistic type that feeds off watching their victim suffer.

I don't think anyone here can judge the reactions of the victims as none of us where in their situation. You can't accuratly judge anothers reactions based off of what you would do. Personally I would have done the same as most of you and beat the crap out of the first person who even tried anything physical. But none of us where in their exact situation so while there where deffinitly better options that could have been pursued none of us can say "they had something else going on".

Suicide isnt alway mental illness. if your life is miserable then death is preferable.

garret wrote:Suicide isnt alway mental illness.

I think you'd find, if you did some research, that the two are very often linked.

Not in every case, but enough to say with a fair amount of surety that someone who commits suicide may have had some mental issues.

garret wrote:Somehow i should have known this would turn into someone saying kids are to soft.

It's true. Boo hoo, you killed yourself because you got bullied/weren't popular. I had like 4-5 people I would call friends in my last 2 years in HS and I didn't go kill myself because the other 2995 didn't want to chill with me.

Wrexasaur wrote:Hit the bully in the head with a brick? That could be a decent option.

Well, that would resolve the situation pretty quickly!

I was thinking something less extreme, though, and I think what they would have to do would be highly dependent on their specific circumstances. Which is sort of the problem with trying to approach bullying from an abstract standpoint, I think.

I think that you'll find most individual initiative on the part of parents to be poorly planned. I would assume that many parents would not deal particularly well with bullies when left to their own methods. It could be messy. I'm just warning you.

Yeah, I'm sure there would be plenty of bad results arising from it all. But on the other hand, who else can be responsible? It just seems to be, to a degree, out of the scope of what the teachers are able to handle. I mean, they can (and should) stop their own class from being disrupted, but they can't be everywhere at once. And they generally don't have the same sort of "mentor" relationship with the kid that his parents should have (and once again, that's to be expected).

Hmm. Could you expand a bit more on this? I'm not sure what kind of solution this would present.

Well, I sometimes think people are too concerned with trying to get the bully and the victim to "get along" when they'd really just be better off seperated. Of course, this kind of separation can be difficult to achieve, when you have two people going to the same school. A lot of times bullying is thought of as simply being a part of childhood, but I think that part of it also has to do with how much more difficult it is to avoid someone when schools are structured the way they are. (Especially when you have cases where the school districts are totally immutable, and transfers are made far harder than they need to be.)

More often than not bullies are a very small minority.

I guess it depends on where you draw the line.

If you're talking about serious torment, physical beatings, sustained effort to ruin somebody's life, then I agree, bullies are uncommon.

But if you're talking about the "go with the flow" sort of social cruelty it sounds like these kids were suffering from, I think virtually ALL kids do it. Not just all kids, but basically all social animals.

Kids are learning to categorize, they're learning about what's acceptable and what's not, they're generally going through a phase in which they're prone to identify things as "strange" and to pick at them. They're also going through a period of life in which they have very little power and control over their environment, and constantly want to have more. They also have stresses and insecurities they're not very well prepared to deal with.

All of this adds up to bullying behavior.

It's also worth noting that if bullying isn't widespread, it doesn't really "work." If a kid can go to school, and everyone is nice to him except for ONE person, that's really not going to damage that kid's worldview. He'll say "wow, that guy is a dick" and not worry about it. It's only when they start thinking that EVERYONE hates them that they begin to hate themselves, and suicide becomes a risk.

Notice that a lot of these bullying stories involve the victim being mistreated by the authorities as well. Are the authorities evil too? Is EVERYONE evil but the victim? Or is the victim just having trouble understanding what people expect of him?

You're saying that it is not good to blame the targets of bullying, but your solution is to give bullies real power.

How am I giving bullies real power?

That sounds good to me, fella in pink can be as pink as he wants.

This is wrong for two reasons:

First off, you can wish and hope that your idealized version of acceptance is real, but it's not. People who act oddly are quite often targets of mistreatment. I realize you don't think that's right. I agree it's not right. But it's reality. You won't fix it. You certainly won't fix it by just saying it shouldn't be.

Second, this isn't just a guy who wants to wear pink, and that's all there is to it. He's reacting to something, he's overcompensating for something. He needs help. He doesn't just need acceptance. He's crying for help. Help him. Don't just ignore his cry for help and feel proud that you're "accepting." He doesn't want acceptance. That's why he's acting out, he's trying NOT to be accepted, because on some level he hates what he is. People don't kill themselves if they don't hate themselves.

That's an important point: Contrary to what Gorgeous Gary Golden is saying, people don't kill themselves to "end the pain" of being bullied. It's not that it's so TERRIBLE they just can't stand to face it again and kill themselves. They kill themselves because they hate themselves. The bullying may exacerbate that self-hatred, but it still comes down to self-hatred in the end.

I do not want that individual child to have socially acceptable power over their class mates.

I think you have a fundamental confusion over the purpose of school.

We love to emphasize that you should "be yourself." We do it so much that it makes people confused. It's a thing in western culture, particularly America.

The fact is, school is about teaching people to fit in. It's about exerting sustained social pressure in order to make kids into functional members of society. It's about teaching kids to follow direction, respect authority, conform to one another's expectations. That's WHY you go. You learn some stuff, math, history, other crap, but mostly you just learn how to do what you're told, go where you're told, be accountable to society.

I'm not suggesting that we should all be uniform wearing automatons, but the whole "be yourself" obsession is not the primary function of school. On the contrary, it's the "devil's advocate." It's the OPPOSITE of what school is about. It's just a word of caution that while you're learning to conform and fit in, don't totally lose yourself. But still, learn to fit in.

I agree that kids these day are a bunch of molly coddled flour bags. I mean they can't even stand up to a little physical or psychological harassment. You know what the problem is? Parents aren't beating their children enough, that's what's making them soft. If parents would just apply the belt a little more that'd tough 'em and make them a fine soldier in the fight against communism.

I don't think my HS even had a bullying problem. FFS there was a kid who wore a utility belt to school every single day and he got absolutely no flak. On top of that he had a hot gf so that made me really question the laws of reality.

avantgarde wrote:I agree that kids these day are a bunch of molly coddled flour bags. I mean they can't even stand up to a little physical or psychological harassment. You know what the problem is? Parents aren't beating their children enough, that's what's making them soft. If parents would just apply the belt a little more that'd tough 'em and make them a fine soldier in the fight against communism.

I see what you did there.

Monster Rain wrote:

garret wrote:Suicide isnt alway mental illness.

I think you'd find, if you did some research, that the two are very often linked.

Not in every case, but enough to say with a fair amount of surety that someone who commits suicide may have had some mental issues.

This has a lot to do with cultural standards.

Bottom line is that a dumbass trying to piss you off is no more than that. When they become a real threat they are no less than criminal by many standards.

Killing yourself is serious fething gak. Children, especially teenagers, go through some crazy phases, and in most cases it is not a long term thing. Attempts to kill yourself and succeeding at it are mentally unstable acts. You have to have a screw loose to try something like that. There are some situations where I really don't blame people, because I would probably have done the same in that situation. Those kind of problems are not something that most kids in developed countries have to deal with.

I am just trying to say that killing yourself after someone mocks you is not a reasonable reaction. It is completely unreasonable.

Oops, it kind of sounds like I am responding to your post, Monster. Just throwing this out there.

Orkeo wrote:Well, that would resolve the situation pretty quickly!

Yeah, bricks are pretty nifty bastards.

I was thinking something less extreme, though, and I think what they would have to do would be highly dependent on their specific circumstances. Which is sort of the problem with trying to approach bullying from an abstract standpoint, I think.

This is a pretty complicated issue.

Yeah, I'm sure there would be plenty of bad results arising from it all. But on the other hand, who else can be responsible? It just seems to be, to a degree, out of the scope of what the teachers are able to handle. I mean, they can (and should) stop their own class from being disrupted, but they can't be everywhere at once. And they generally don't have the same sort of "mentor" relationship with the kid that his parents should have (and once again, that's to be expected).

I think everyone needs to play their part. I can't imagine parents being able to do anything significant or generally rational in most circumstances.

Teachers need to do their jobs. Administration needs to do their jobs. Parents need to be the ones to be in between their children and the chaos that is often involved in adult life. That includes pushing back against institutions that fail to give them serious options in the context of bullying. Parents probably need better resources when it comes to the school, and the school should be providing them many of those options.

I can see quite a few parents liking my brick idea.

Well, I sometimes think people are too concerned with trying to get the bully and the victim to "get along" when they'd really just be better off seperated. Of course, this kind of separation can be difficult to achieve, when you have two people going to the same school. A lot of times bullying is thought of as simply being a part of childhood, but I think that part of it also has to do with how much more difficult it is to avoid someone when schools are structured the way they are. (Especially when you have cases where the school districts are totally immutable, and transfers are made far harder than they need to be.)

In most cases I really can't see many reasons why anyone should be moved besides the bully. In those cases that it does make sense to move the bullies target there should probably be a quick and relatively painless process available. Keeping them separated is a good idea, as in a great deal of cases I can see the bully getting hurt very badly. That reaction from the student, or the parent of the student, could also drag a large part of the school into it.

Amaya wrote:
It's true. Boo hoo, you killed yourself because you got bullied/weren't popular. I had like 4-5 people I would call friends in my last 2 years in HS and I didn't go kill myself because the other 2995 didn't want to chill with me.

Being bullied and not beiong popular are not the same thing. Being bullied means being harassed, not being popular means being relatively insignificant within a given social setting. The fact that you didn't have many friends doesn't indicate that you were bullied, it indicates that you had few friends.

If you're going to puff up your chest,at least have the decency to do so in a way that is predicated on good sense.

Phryxis wrote:

More often than not bullies are a very small minority.

I guess it depends on where you draw the line.

If you're talking about serious torment, physical beatings, sustained effort to ruin somebody's life, then I agree, bullies are uncommon.

I believe this really isn't an issue about bullying. I consider this very much an issue of criminality. There are levels of bullying that are clearly criminal and they should be treated as such.

But if you're talking about the "go with the flow" sort of social cruelty it sounds like these kids were suffering from, I think virtually ALL kids do it. Not just all kids, but basically all social animals.

Kids are learning to categorize, they're learning about what's acceptable and what's not, they're generally going through a phase in which they're prone to identify things as "strange" and to pick at them. They're also going through a period of life in which they have very little power and control over their environment, and constantly want to have more. They also have stresses and insecurities they're not very well prepared to deal with.

I agree with you for the most part. In my experience most kids are just loud and often obnoxious. They aren't particularly malicious most of the time. The kids that are malicious need help. Their targets need protection.

It is pretty obvious when kids are being kids, but there is a gray area where it is really hard to have a distinct opinion. Maybe the bullies were stretching the bounds of the law, maybe they found some strange loophole. Most often I think that the kids that are being kids aren't running around picking on one specific kid. They tend to be generally obnoxious all around if they are obnoxious at all. Most kids are just loud in my opinion.

All of this adds up to bullying behavior.

It's also worth noting that if bullying isn't widespread, it doesn't really "work." If a kid can go to school, and everyone is nice to him except for ONE person, that's really not going to damage that kid's worldview. He'll say "wow, that guy is a dick" and not worry about it. It's only when they start thinking that EVERYONE hates them that they begin to hate themselves, and suicide becomes a risk.

Lonely kids can be targeted by small cliques and after a certain point I do consider some actions on the part of bullies to be flatly criminal. I don't really know about this story specifically. It is definitely depressing, though.

There are a few parts that should have raised flags to the schools administration. It seems like a pretty common case of incompetence on the schools part.
Like this.

Article wrote:At school, life was very different. She was ridiculed for her thick accent. Classmates tossed insults like "Slutty Jana" or "Slut-Jana-Vagina." A boy pushed her down the stairs. A girl smacked her in the face with a water bottle.

...

But then the school did this...

Article wrote:When the family tried to retrieve records about their reports of bullying, school officials told them the records were destroyed during a switch to computers. The family sued in August.

Phryxis wrote:Notice that a lot of these bullying stories involve the victim being mistreated by the authorities as well. Are the authorities evil too? Is EVERYONE evil but the victim? Or is the victim just having trouble understanding what people expect of him?

Incompetent authority figures and aggrieved victims that are prone to minor bouts of hyperbole in place of recognizing how complicated many administrations are? WOW. Gosh. LOL.

The victim is evil? Is that what you are saying? The wording here is a bit tricky. Most parties aren't evil. Feth what the headlines say.

How am I giving bullies real power?

If I understand what you said, and I am pretty sure I did, you're suggesting the the targets of bullying need to be the primary actors in resolving a situation. I don't think that is regularly possible without intervention from authority figures. It is depressing when schools don't help kids deal with the problems that such environments create for most children. In saying that the targets of bullying need to be the one to make changes you're suggesting that the bully has no role to play in resolution. Because it is too difficult to do so, or something, which I consider borderline ridiculous.

Creating such an environment suggests that authorities in charge of that environment should take what actions they can to make their campus a safe place for students. Maybe they can't stop a few kids from picking on a bunch of other kids, but I think that is not usually true. Often schools fear reprimand for their actions against disruptive and in some cases criminal students. I don't view those types of tenuous situations as an excuse from responsibility.

This is wrong for two reasons:

First off, you can wish and hope that your idealized version of acceptance is real, but it's not. People who act oddly are quite often targets of mistreatment. I realize you don't think that's right. I agree it's not right. But it's reality. You won't fix it. You certainly won't fix it by just saying it shouldn't be.

You're 100% correct. I will fix it by drop-kicking donkey-caves out of otherwise peaceful environments. Other than that I will stop it by standing up for people that are being bullied when I can. It gets complicated, but most often it isn't hard to tell when you can and when you shouldn't do something. In situations where you shouldn't intervene you can call the appropriate authority figure in to deal with the situation. Hopefully they can.

Second, this isn't just a guy who wants to wear pink, and that's all there is to it. He's reacting to something, he's overcompensating for something. He needs help. He doesn't just need acceptance. He's crying for help. Help him. Don't just ignore his cry for help and feel proud that you're "accepting." He doesn't want acceptance. That's why he's acting out, he's trying NOT to be accepted, because on some level he hates what he is. People don't kill themselves if they don't hate themselves.

Well, we are just going to have to disagree on this. I like to wear boots. Most people don't care that I like to wear boots.

I know plenty of people that like to wear their favorite colors. I see nothing odd about that. The guy that harasses the guy who wears pink has more issues that the guy who wears pink. My guess is that the bully in that situation actually LOVES pink. It is probably their favorite color.

I am not trying to suggest anything here BTW. I am wondering, however, why you think that anyone who stands out hates themselves. Secondly, I know quite a few people that stand out because they like standing out. It isn't always about making a statement. It's often about being yourself and enjoying it. I have respect for that, and little respect for those that would feel it necessary to harass such individuals.

Your reasoning here confuses me, quite frankly. It is a bit odd. Are you crying out for help? Do you need a hug?

Just kidding.

But yeah, the pink-shirt dude sounds like a pretty awesome guy.

Article wrote:Eric Mohat was flamboyant and loud and preferred to wear pink most of the time. When he didn't get the lead soprano part in the choir his freshman year, he was indignant, his mother says.

He wore a stuffed animal strapped to his arm, a lemur named Georges that was given its own seat in class.

"It was a gag," says Mohat's father, Bill. "And all the girls would come up to pet his monkey. And in his Spanish class they would write stories about Georges."

Mohat's family and friends say he wasn't gay, but people thought he was.

Dude sounds like a fething mac. That's right, pet my monkey and write stories about it in class. Give my monkey his own seat.

That's an important point: Contrary to what Gorgeous Gary Golden is saying, people don't kill themselves to "end the pain" of being bullied. It's not that it's so TERRIBLE they just can't stand to face it again and kill themselves. They kill themselves because they hate themselves. The bullying may exacerbate that self-hatred, but it still comes down to self-hatred in the end.

Mentally unstable people do not automatically hate themselves. On that same point they are often not in a state of mind where those kinds of rationalizations actually make much sense. They don't usually make sense, because the person is unstable and mentally ill. Deranged to the point at which suicide is considered a reasonable reaction to ridicule. It fething isn't, and that is why they are unstable. It isn't because of some sort of generalization that all there is to this is self-loathing.

I think you have a fundamental confusion over the purpose of school.

Or something... This was an odd comment, mate.

We love to emphasize that you should "be yourself." We do it so much that it makes people confused. It's a thing in western culture, particularly America.

The fact is, school is about teaching people to fit in. It's about exerting sustained social pressure in order to make kids into functional members of society. It's about teaching kids to follow direction, respect authority, conform to one another's expectations. That's WHY you go. You learn some stuff, math, history, other crap, but mostly you just learn how to do what you're told, go where you're told, be accountable to society.

That is based on abstract reasoning and it does not hold true in all school environments. The only generalized conclusion I can come to is that school does have the secondary purpose of keeping kids busy. Are we talking about elementary school here? In high school there are many types of education occurring. Learning how to work with your peers and authority figures is the only socialized general education. You learn how to work with what is presented to you, and often enough that type of environment isn't actually presented until college level education.

I'm not suggesting that we should all be uniform wearing automatons, but the whole "be yourself" obsession is not the primary function of school. On the contrary, it's the "devil's advocate." It's the OPPOSITE of what school is about. It's just a word of caution that while you're learning to conform and fit in, don't totally lose yourself. But still, learn to fit in.

I am not entirely sure why you are so convinced that this is the case. School is a building. It is a place where people go. Some schools may focus on this type of education more than others, but for the most part it is a pretty mixed bag. Different administrations have different goals. They care about and pursue different goals.

Well, at least the students didnt attack random students like columbine at least. That would have resulted in a couple more deaths. :/

The victim is evil? Is that what you are saying?

I think I've been pretty explicit that I'm not saying that.

If I understand what you said, and I am pretty sure I did, you're suggesting the the targets of bullying need to be the primary actors in resolving a situation.

No, I'm not saying that. Authority figures will most likely need to intervene. However, they will get the most mileage out of intervening with the victim, figuring out what the victim needs in order to interact more positively with their peers.

And don't get me wrong, there are lots of situations where kids get bullied and there's nothing wrong with them. It's just that these events are typically random, circumstantial, and have no real impact on the victim. We're talking about suicides, and these are the sorts of situations where the bullying is systemic, prolonged, and due to profound social dysfunction in the victim.

I will fix it by drop-kicking donkey-caves out of otherwise peaceful environments.

So you're going to go to the local highschool and enact violent vigilante justice on bullies, because the people whose actual job it is to keep the peace aren't doing it to your satisfaction?

Enjoy jail. Lots of bullying there, in case you didn't know.

Gotta stop thinking in terms of young adult fiction. Fantasizing about rushing to some poor kid's aid is fantasy. The bullies aren't going to "get their comeuppance" and end up in a special circle of Dante's inferno for bullies. They're mostly just going to progress through highschool, mature somewhat, etc. etc.

I am wondering, however, why you think that anyone who stands out hates themselves.

I don't think that. I think that this kid who wore pink PROBABLY hated himself, given that he killed himself. I further think that he was wearing pink not out of a simple fondness for pink, but because he was seeking to "force the issue."

It's the "killing yourself" bit that stands out. It means that the kid had serious issues. It's VERY likely that any odd things he's doing are a manifestation of those issues. That's why I said, specifically, that it's NOT about the wearing pink thing.

Mohat's family and friends say he wasn't gay, but people thought he was.

Come on. The dude is gay. He's gay, he hates it about himself, he's struggling with it. His parents wouldn't accept it, and now they're trying to blame bullies for killing his kid, when their own refusal to accept him is what killed him. Take it with a grain of salt, but I'd bet money on it.

Mentally unstable people do not automatically hate themselves.

I didn't say the do. I said that people who kill themselves hate themselves.

The exception to this is people who are terminally ill, or in severe physical pain. This is not what we're dealing with in these suicides, however.

In high school there are many types of education occurring.

Sure, and I said as much. They're teaching you a lot of things, but above all, they're trying to teach you to be a functioning member of society. They're trying to prepare you to go out in the workforce and do a job.

Different administrations have different goals. They care about and pursue different goals.

They all weight things differently, but at the end of the day the primary point of concern is to prepare kids to function in society.

Phryxis wrote:

The victim is evil? Is that what you are saying?

I think I've been pretty explicit that I'm not saying that.

No worries.

If I understand what you said, and I am pretty sure I did, you're suggesting the the targets of bullying need to be the primary actors in resolving a situation.

No, I'm not saying that. Authority figures will most likely need to intervene. However, they will get the most mileage out of intervening with the victim, figuring out what the victim needs in order to interact more positively with their peers.

In situations where one person is being bullied by many I agree. In situations when individuals or groups are bullying many I completely disagree. As I would expect most criminal bullies to be far outnumbered by their targets I would have to say that I generally disagree with you here. As you have stated 'what the victim needs' I don't entirely disagree with you, and I recognize that in some situations working mainly with the bullies target makes the most sense.

I do not think it is a good idea to always deal with bullying in the same way. An effective system needs to be flexible so it can deal with different contexts.

And don't get me wrong, there are lots of situations where kids get bullied and there's nothing wrong with them. It's just that these events are typically random, circumstantial, and have no real impact on the victim. We're talking about suicides, and these are the sorts of situations where the bullying is systemic, prolonged, and due to profound social dysfunction in the victim.

Agreed for the most part. Not on all of your opinions of course, but definitely on the context illustrated by this part of your post.

I think we agree on this issue a lot more than you might prefer.

I will fix it by drop-kicking donkey-caves out of otherwise peaceful environments.

So you're going to go to the local highschool and enact violent vigilante justice on bullies, because the people whose actual job it is to keep the peace aren't doing it to your satisfaction?

Why yes, that is exactly what I said.

Wrex wrote:Other than that I will stop it by standing up for people that are being bullied when I can. It gets complicated, but most often it isn't hard to tell when you can and when you shouldn't do something. In situations where you shouldn't intervene you can call the appropriate authority figure in to deal with the situation. Hopefully they can.

Phyxis wrote:Enjoy jail. Lots of bullying there, in case you didn't know.

Why is this happening to me?

I don't think that. I think that this kid who wore pink PROBABLY hated himself, given that he killed himself. I further think that he was wearing pink not out of a simple fondness for pink, but because he was seeking to "force the issue."

It's the "killing yourself" bit that stands out. It means that the kid had serious issues. It's VERY likely that any odd things he's doing are a manifestation of those issues. That's why I said, specifically, that it's NOT about the wearing pink thing.

Clear enough for me. I think we pretty much agree here. I mean, you are carrying some interesting cultural undertones in these statements, but that aside I agree with you.

Come on. The dude is gay. He's gay, he hates it about himself, he's struggling with it. His parents wouldn't accept it, and now they're trying to blame bullies for killing his kid, when their own refusal to accept him is what killed him. Take it with a grain of salt, but I'd bet money on it.

I put 20 bucks on the kid being a playboy mastermind. If he hadn't topped himself he would have had a villa in Spain where his monkey could sit wherever the hell it liked.

Were really bad people, Phryxis.

I didn't say the do. I said that people who kill themselves hate themselves.

It could have been seen to be the case taken with several of your other points. Dunna matter though, you made yourself clear here.

The exception to this is people who are terminally ill, or in severe physical pain. This is not what we're dealing with in these suicides, however.

Correct.

Sure, and I said as much. They're teaching you a lot of things, but above all, they're trying to teach you to be a functioning member of society. They're trying to prepare you to go out in the workforce and do a job.

Sort of? I'm not sure I have an opinion on this. I'm not sure it really happens that way. I still consider school an relatively empty box. It is a place that people go. They do stuff there. The stuff they do isn't necessarily the stuff that another school box might do.

They all weight things differently, but at the end of the day the primary point of concern is to prepare kids to function in society.

Again, sort of. I really don't consider the issue as easily interpreted as you suggest. In many ways I consider this specific subject vastly open to interpretation.

I see a cat. No, wait... I see a panda. Definitely a panda.

In situations where one person is being bullied by many I agree. In situations when individuals or groups are bullying many I completely disagree.

I think the former situation is the only one of any real relevance.

Everyone gets bullied at some point. It's not a big deal. Nobody kills themselves over the occasional negative interaction. It's the situation where somebody is being ostracized and harassed by EVERYONE that real problems occur.

That's why I keep going back to the victim being the real focus when it comes to intervention. Either EVERYONE is evil, or it's the victim that needs the help.

I really don't consider the issue as easily interpreted as you suggest.

Well, it is, and it isn't.

The core functionality of early school is to socialize kids and teach them how to think. Over time it turns more and more into education, but pretty much through high school they're just trying to get you integrated into adult society. That's just how it is...

But beyond that, there's a lot going on. Some schools are trying to get MORE done than just that. They might be trying to teach performing arts, or liberal arts foundation, or military discipline, or whatever else...

But the one thing that all schools are trying to do, the one common function, is to prepare kids to live in adult society.

Phryxis wrote:

In situations where one person is being bullied by many I agree. In situations when individuals or groups are bullying many I completely disagree.

I think the former situation is the only one of any real relevance.

Everyone gets bullied at some point. It's not a big deal. Nobody kills themselves over the occasional negative interaction. It's the situation where somebody is being ostracized and harassed by EVERYONE that real problems occur.

This is a possibility, but I see no reason why an effective system for dealing with bullies would avoid addressing the problems the bullies have as well. They have problems that should be worked on, and focusing on the internal factors of their targets doesn't do much to disprove that. It doesn't really seem to do anything to disprove that.

Given that you do not believe the victims could be protected I assume you are working from that foundation. I happen to think that a lot could have been done to prevent girls being pushed down stairs and being hit in the face with water bottles. Unless those statements were false and nothing of the sort happened. If it did though, pushing someone down a set of stairs because you think their accent is funny... well, that is fething crazy, and criminally so.

The schools administration could be seen as criminally negligent, and it will be interesting to see what happens to them.

That's why I keep going back to the victim being the real focus when it comes to intervention. Either EVERYONE is evil, or it's the victim that needs the help.

Or there are other options presented by this subject. I agree that the victim does need support, but I will add again that I feel that the bullies are often in need of their own help. Both sides need help, because for the most part I think that this usually comes down to one person doing something really stupid, and often criminal, while the target of those actions may react negatively as well. The kid that pushed the chick down the stairs sounds like a bastard in need of serious support. That support can take many forms, and in many cases might separate the student from other students that choose not to push people down stairs...

I really don't consider the issue as easily interpreted as you suggest.

Well, it is, and it isn't.

The core functionality of early school is to socialize kids and teach them how to think. Over time it turns more and more into education, but pretty much through high school they're just trying to get you integrated into adult society. That's just how it is...

But beyond that, there's a lot going on. Some schools are trying to get MORE done than just that. They might be trying to teach performing arts, or liberal arts foundation, or military discipline, or whatever else...

But the one thing that all schools are trying to do, the one common function, is to prepare kids to live in adult society.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that I don't really want to jump into this tangent. We can generally agree to disagree.

My opinion is that the one common function is that it keeps some kids busy, and tries to do so with the rest as well.

I happen to think that a lot could have been done to prevent girls being pushed down stairs and being hit in the face with water bottles.

I dunno, I don't.

Kids are not without cunning, they're just immature. They're good at doing things and not getting caught. It's pretty much their primary skillset, really.

I find the tone of all these articles to be a bit ridiculous. "Oh! They hit her in the FACE with a WATER BOTTLE! WHY DID NOBODY STEP IN!!!!!!ONE!!!" Because it happens ALL THE TIME.

I mean, we all went to high school. We all saw kids get beat up. Even though this is not a good thing, a lot of it is fine. I can recall guys who essentially "wanted" to get bullied, so that they could show their peers that they were tough. I had friends who started things with older kids, got smacked around, then the younger guys all respected him more for being "tough" or whatever.

Girls brawl too. People brawl. It's whatever. It doesn't mean a suicide is on the way.

that is fething crazy, and criminally so.

Meh, sorta. I mean, yes, you're not allowed to punch somebody in the face. That's illegal.

But, at the same time, it's not. People do it ALL the time, and nothing comes of it. In general, I think we've become an excessively litigious society. If somebody gets punched a couple times, it's really not a big deal. Nobody needs to go to jail over it.

If you walk up to somebody and break their jaw for no good reason, ok, let's have an assault charge.

But if two people just sorta flail around, maybe somebody gets a swollen lip, especially if they BOTH wanted in on it, then why does that need to be illegal? Two people scrapped, not a problem.

Pushing a girl down some stairs... I dunno, I'd have to see it happen. It could be horrifying, it could be minor. If she falls down a flight of 25 concrete steps, cartwheeling all the way, that's pretty egregious. If she just sorta slips down 2 or 3 and bruises her elbow, then whatever. It's not criminal.

I feel that the bullies are often in need of their own help.

Certainly possible, but I dunno... We've got some disagreements here.

You seem to think it's a small number of people, I tend to think it's basically "everyone." If it's a small number of people, yes, intervention makes a lot more sense. It's both more practical, and also more likely that the people actually need help.

For me it comes down to impact...

Is working with the bullies going to do much? I don't really think so. I think most of these people will eventually just grow out of it, and move on with life, and be normal, if slightly less empathic than average. They don't really NEED any help, they're just the run-of-the-mill human failings that the victims are beating their heads against. You don't really need to do anything for them.

Look at these victims...

There's a kid that's obviously gay, obviously denying it publicly, and obviously has idiot friends/parents who say "oh, he's not gay, he said so, I'm totally supporting him by helping him hold the closet door shut." I don't care how nice you are to him, or how good your intentions are. His own PARENTS are probably the primary reason he killed himself, and they LOVE the kid. How nice can we teach bullies to be, if his own parents weren't nice enough?

Similarly we've got a girl with a thick accent, which means she didn't grow up here, which means she's been thrust into a totally unfamilliar society, probably with a language barrier, right at the point in her life when she's most fragile and impressionable. That's why she had problems.

Plus, when you're a kid, you're just STUPID. You don't know what's going on, you don't know what you're feeling, you don't know why you're doing the things you're doing.

There was a girl I went to school with, who moved over from Russia. She took a liking to me, but because I was a kid, and was vaguely aware that she was different, and not cool, I was basically just mean to her. Since pretty much everyone was mean to her, I guess she didn't see me as being any meaner. Or maybe she knew I was flirting with her, whcih may have been what I was doing, but I was too stupid to really know. I had no idea why I wanted to be mean to her, it just was what I came up with at the time.

Later on, maybe age 16 or 17, she asks me to prom. I had a girlfriend at the time, so I said no, but was totally put off by the idea. "Ugh, no, you're the weird Russian girl!" I was totally psyched to get out of it.

Then, maybe five years later, I run into her. I've grown up enough by that point to actually perceive reality, and I realize this girl is beautiful. In fact, she had worked as a model for a few years after high school. So I go over to her apartment (which she shares with her fiancee) and I learn about how she's a successful professional, very classy gal. She also basically informs me that she was asking me to prom in order to [edit edit edit], and she had to ask some other kid instead, and he was very bad at [edit edit edit].

So, basically, I was a kid, I was presented with a beautiful girl who wanted to [edit] me, and all I could really come up with was to be mean to her, and think she was ridiculous because she was Russian.

Kids are stupid. You're not going to talk to sense into them. All you can do is figure out which ones REALLY need help, and try to give it to them. The other ones are just sorta churning and flailing around, being mean to anything they don't understand, because it's literally the best they can come up with. You just need to shelter the fragile ones from that reality, because no amount of sensitivity training is going to make a teenage clod less of a teenage clod.

Well now days parents tell you to tell a teacher or the principal what the hell is that going to do? nothing drive more kids to pull off columbine stuff or kill them selves. Screw that take things into your own hands beat that bullies arse one time guarunteed he will never mess with you again kick in the nuts something kids are such pussies these days its BS teach your kids self defense but these kids offing themselves is natural selection they clearly couldnt survive the bully being the one more fit does its the weeding out process if our fore fathers bowed to the bullies of their time aka great britain we wouldnt have this country

I can't decide which is more abhorrent your ideas, your grammar or the fact you're from Austin.

Yes my grammar is horrible I'm stuck with a comp that doesnt auto correct for me sorry. I'm not from Austin I just live here I was born and raised somewhere completly different. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion you might not like mine, but maybe just maybe if we taught our children self defense and I'm not talking about just walking up to someone and kicking butt. If your being picked on by a bully try and tell a Teacher or the Principal see if that works they wont do anything. I learned this first hand I was bullied for six months my second grade year and I got tired of not doing anything back, so I stood up to my bully and beat the crap out of him one day and nobody messed with me ever again now a kick in the nads is a low blow... but if thats what it takes for some kids by all means but I'm not telling people to teach their kids self defense so they become bullies themselves stand up for yourself if you dont nobody will. But it is true the kids who killed themselves thats sad very sad but they were the weakest link and they let the bully win and he continues to live and bully others while they are now 6 feet under I should have written out my first post better

avantgarde wrote:I can't decide which is more abhorrent your ideas, your grammar or the fact your from Austin.

All of the above avantgarde...


BloodDrop101X you're 18 years old, stop writing like a 7 year old.

BloodDrop101X wrote:Yes my grammar is horrible I'm stuck with a comp that doesnt auto correct for me sorry.

I know its a radical solution but you could actually correct yourself, rather than relying on a computer to do so.

Not to be too snarky but this is primarily a sight-orientated experience right here on these forums; poorly formatted, spelt and grammatically flawed posts tend to be ignored and / or flamed.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

TheBlackVanguard wrote:I was bullied because I came from a ho dunk, redneck, small town, and I had long hair and listened to metal. If you didn't play sports at my school you had to dress like a cowboy and listen to country or nobody liked you and you became an outcast.

How did I fix it? I pulled a knife on the first kid to really try to physically bully me (He tried to hit me with his truck once when I was crossing the street in front of school) after that I was left alone, much like many of the stories given here.

What does this say? Either parents, kids, or teachers, need to Man Up and quit caring about being PC and address the real issues.

That being said for someone to commit suicide over bullying is a complete overreaction which means theres something else going on.

This guy wins. :thumsup:

I swear, what is wrong with some kids...Not you quotee

The major bully in my junior high days no longer walks, I ended up breaking his back. I am not proud of this at all however, the point is no one should have to go this far to stop a bully. Ironically this "former" bully and I are now great friends even he says that "he wishes that teachers would have stepped in and set him on the right track instead of ignoring it." There is definately no way for the victim to win, if the tell the "authorities" then they may stop things in school but not outside and are seen as a "tattletail" if they fight, they get into heaps of trouble themselves (trust me I know from experience) All if this bullying and the results are getting pretty close to another Columbine. When victims have enough there are two options, 1 kill themselves (as it truly never stops) or 2 kill the bully. This is the options most victims see as their only 2 options. the question I have is why does it have to get to this point?