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Your secondly is supposition, not fact.

Your additional is you adding additional restrictions when you cannot show they are needed.

You DO need to measure to the models inside, because under YOUR interpretation the embarked models are arrving from reserve using Outflank. Arriving from reserve requires you to be able to measure to the models. so stop ducking: please show the rules that let you measure to embarked models.

You have yet to provide rules, when shown the holes in your arguments you duck and ignore the question.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Your secondly is supposition, not fact.

Your additional is you adding additional restrictions when you cannot show they are needed.

You DO need to measure to the models inside, because under YOUR interpretation the embarked models are arrving from reserve using Outflank. Arriving from reserve requires you to be able to measure to the models. so stop ducking: please show the rules that let you measure to embarked models.

You have yet to provide rules, when shown the holes in your arguments you duck and ignore the question.

You need to provide rules to say this is allowed. I have found rules that restrict this. The reserve rules read that the units arrive together. NO interpretation it is verbatum. Please read that section that I have referenced multiple times.

If my secondly is not fact please find something that is factual that proves your point and give me a page reference WHICH YOU HAVE STILL YET TO DO. Otherwise your claim that it works is false. We have a permissive ruleset, you are claiming that since the rules do not specificly say you cannot, that you can do that. Which by the way is hilarious! I have given you rules from the book, not my own ideas, not my own thoughts. The additional is referenced in the reserves rule as you have to declare how each unit is arriving from reserve. When you do this both units need to be able to declare that they can. Since, lets say Veterans (because I think that is what the original poster said) does not have scouts, infiltrate, or outflank in thier rules set you cannot declare that they are outflanking. I have also given you sufficent information where these rules, specifically, work when the unit has the rules that allows you to outflank and how they confer them over to the vehcile, but there is no evidence to the converse.

I am not ducking the question, as it is not a question that needs to be anwsered. Please for the sake of civility show where you measure to any unit inside a vehicle. (Page Reference please no statments, I want to actually read it from the book/rules that are printed by GW) The reserves rules, which I have quoted, have shown you that your claim is wrong. You need to find rules, to support your anwser, if you can find anything to do this I will be glad to try and find an anwser for your claim again, but you have yet to give any real evidence to support your claim.

KP under your rules interpretation Drop Pods never work because you cannot declare the SM inside are Deep Striking...

You are correct that the unit needs to declare how it will arrive IF it has the deep strike, infiltrate or out flank special rules. The squad inside has none of these, ergo, it does not declare how it is arriving. It does not NEED to declare how it is arriving, it is merely in reserves INSIDE a transport.

The transport declares it is using Outflank, hence it arrives via outflanking and the other unit, rolled with it an embarked in it arrives via outflank. You do not even need to declare the unit inside is outflanking because it is embarked in the transport. The embarked unit is not outflanking, the transport is, the embarked unit is just along for the ride.

Edit: You are wrong in your quoting of the reserve rules, see my previous post.

calypso2ts wrote:KP under your rules interpretation Drop Pods never work because you cannot declare the SM inside are Deep Striking...

This...and really any vehicle which move in ways that infantry cannot (e.g. skimmers, fast vehicles) yet may still transport infantry.

So I have already addressed the problem with drop pods. The drop pods do not actually have the deepstrike rule, but in the reserves rules, it does say that immoblised units that are in reserve arrive via deep strike. The drop pod does not have deep strike, it gains deepstrike from the BRB rules regarding reserves. In essence this is a niether here nor there example. As the drop pod gains the rules from the reserves section of the BRB.

You are still having to declare that the unit which is being transported by the vendetta/valk, are arriving by outflank. Because both the Valk/Vendetta and the squad they are carrying are outflanking. There is no way around it. The valk/Vendetta are carrying a squad of whatever, the squad of whatever arrives the same time and way that the transport that is carrying them does. That is what you guys are saying yes? Well the rules for this say that you have to, again HAVE TO declare how each unit is arriving from reserves. You cannot say that my squad is arriving by valk/vendetta because that is not a choice given in the reserves rules (IE Deepstrike, outflank, infiltrate). You cannot claim that the SOB are arriving from reserves by outflank because the vendetta allows it because they do not, firstly have the rule, and secondly do not have any rules that back that up the squad coming along for the ride (or gaining the rules from the transport).

KP - page 66, "Embarking", final sentence. You can measure to units, not models. Surprised you've never come across this before, given its kinda key in 5th ed.

I have shown:

1) I am able to declare the unit to be embarked on the vehicle
2) That the vehicle is using Outflank

And I have permisison to do both.

What I am saying is that you are adding arbitrary requirements (specific requirements you have made up) akin to requiring specific rules to deploy in woods. You have general rules allowing this, but you would be, in an analogy, wanting something specific about deploying in woods when it isnt necessary.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:So I have already addressed the problem with drop pods. The drop pods do not actually have the deepstrike rule, but in the reserves rules, it does say that immoblised units that are in reserve arrive via deep strike. The drop pod does not have deep strike, it gains deepstrike from the BRB rules regarding reserves. In essence this is a niether here nor there example. As the drop pod gains the rules from the reserves section of the BRB.

That is incorrect - SM: Codex 69 - Drop Pod Assault. 'All drop pods enter play via Deep Strike.' Not because of the BRB (although that does grant permission to immobile units that annot move in from a board edge). Further it says - a 'Unit that deep strikes via a drop pod' However, they cannot deep strike because they do not have that rule, which the drop pod does. So I can declare a deep strike with my drop pod, but I cannot declare a Dread or Tactical is deep striking because it is ineligible to be able to be declared to deep strike....unless it is allowed to do so via the drop pod. Wait, can a unit deep strike via a drop pod...'a unit that deep strike via a drop pod.'


This argument is both here and there. If I do not need to declare a unit is deep striking if it is entering play via deep strike in a vehicle (drop pod or heck BA Land Raider), then I do not need to declare a unit entering play via outflank in vehicle is itself declared as outflanking. How can you even separate these two examples logically?

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
You are still having to declare that the unit which is being transported by the vendetta/valk, are arriving by outflank. Because both the Valk/Vendetta and the squad they are carrying are outflanking. There is no way around it.

No you do not, this is the entire point, you do not need to declare anything about the unit other than it is in reserves and it is in the transport. It then arrives with the vehicle.

The squad is not outflanking itself, it is outflanking via a Valk/Vendetta. In the same way a unit is DS via drop pod. You do not declare either for an embarked squad.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
The valk/Vendetta are carrying a squad of whatever, the squad of whatever arrives the same time and way that the transport that is carrying them does. That is what you guys are
saying yes? Well the rules for this say that you have to, again HAVE TO declare how each unit is arriving from reserves.

No this is incorrect, reread the rules. You need to declare units that are deep striking, outflanking and infiltrating. You do not have to declare a unit DS'ing/Outflanking via an (insert vehicle)

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
You cannot say that my squad is arriving by valk/vendetta because that is not a choice given in the reserves rules (IE Deepstrike, outflank, infiltrate).

I am not declaring it as arriving that way, we agree on that. It is just in reserves and will arrive with the other unit because it is embarked. If you magically kill the transport off the table then it will walk onto my board edge. You ONLY need to declare those three states, anything else is not declared it just is what it is.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
You cannot claim that the SOB are arriving from reserves by outflank because the vendetta allows it because they do not, firstly have the rule, and secondly do not have any rules that back that up the squad coming along for the ride (or gaining the rules from the transport).

I am not declaring that, I am just putting them in reserve in a vehicle. If you want to break Drop Pods and any other vehicle that deep strikes be my guest, but it makes a mockery of the actual rules. I suppose you force tactical squads (assuming you even allow them to Deep Strike) disembarking from a drop pod to take dangerous terrain tests as well since they deep struck...

Can you tell me how to measure to an embarked model please? So Nos finally came through and provided a page reference for us! Great job. Only problem is now you answered calypso2ts's question! Also, I would like to point out calypso2ts that Drop Pods do not in fact have deepstrike. They have drop pod assault which gives them deepstrike via the 40k mission specail rules, aka reserves rules. I am not breaking any vehicle's in the game, nor am I trying to break rules by insisting that units inside a vehicle can arrive any way the vehcile can without permission. What is suprising as I am sure you will find out shortly is that DPA actually stipulates that units arriving via drop pods cannot assault. Here is where the unit is specifically, mentioned and given general permission to use the drop pods to enter play.

Wait, the unit is given permission to deep strike in a dorp pod in the part about drop pod assault where it says they cannot assault? Wow, okay that is a ridiculous statement...that is not permission to deep strike, it just says 'if you happen to deep strike via a pod, you cannot assault.'

You still have not shown how a tactical, dread or thunderfire cannon have permission to be declared as deep strikers - they do not, at no point is it said XYZ may deep strike. Your interpretation of the rules is dead wrong.

KP - we were asking YOU for how to measure to an embarked model. You stated at least twice that this could be done, however I have shown how you are only given permission to measure to embarked units. Not models.

So, for the last time of asking: provide a page reference to where you can measure to embarked models

Failure to do so means you concede your argument as invalid, as your argument requires you to be able to measure to embarked models.

Last chance.

FInally - the rules for DPA do NOT give the embarked models Deepstrike, pr permission to enter play via deepstrike - as again has been mentioned to you. All it gives you is the rule that states that a "unit that arrives via DPA may not assault" - that tells you what happens IF they arrive, you have yet to show by your argument the permission to arrive in the first place.

Your interpretation of DPA is flawed, as is your interpretation of Outflank. You also didnt appear to know that you can measure to embarked units, which is impressive as I assume you have never therefore letg an embarked scoring unit capture an objective? It's only a core mechanic....

nosferatu1001 wrote:KP - we were asking YOU for how to measure to an embarked model. You stated at least twice that this could be done, however I have shown how you are only given permission to measure to embarked units. Not models.

So, for the last time of asking: provide a page reference to where you can measure to embarked models

Failure to do so means you concede your argument as invalid, as your argument requires you to be able to measure to embarked models.

Last chance.

FInally - the rules for DPA do NOT give the embarked models Deepstrike, pr permission to enter play via deepstrike - as again has been mentioned to you. All it gives you is the rule that states that a "unit that arrives via DPA may not assault" - that tells you what happens IF they arrive, you have yet to show by your argument the permission to arrive in the first place.

Your interpretation of DPA is flawed, as is your interpretation of Outflank. You also didnt appear to know that you can measure to embarked units, which is impressive as I assume you have never therefore letg an embarked scoring unit capture an objective? It's only a core mechanic....

I know this is going to be frustating, but you do not get to decide when arugments are over. Nor do you get to tell me that I have my last chance. Futhermore, to ask for a specific reference so that you can look at only "model". Seeing as on page 3 it specifically says that models fight together in groups called units. Last paragraph unit section. That combined with page 66, embarking section last sentence, tells you how to measure, to a model/models aka unit or squad.

DPA allows units to arrive via deepstrike, why is this you ask, "At the begining of your first turn you must choose half your drop pods (rounding up) to make a 'Drop Pod Assault'. Units making a Drop Pod Assault arrive on the first players turn." So see units, you declare that your units (drop pod, and whatever inside) are making a drop pod assault. Thus giving permission to do such. It also goes on to say that the remaining drop pods, which is still effected by DPA, are rolled for as normal, thus allowing the rest to arrive when rolled as normal.
also the last sentece says that a unit that deepstrikes via drop pod... see that right there, it is saying that it is an option to deepstrike. Otherwise it is fluff, and last time I checked special rules, were actually, you know, rules! Wow check that out!

@KP: I asked previously but I'm sure it got lost in the shuffle. What gives a unit of infantry permission to move as a skimmer, or as a fast vehicle?

your asking if a vehicle can move as a vehicle, which starts at page 56, and goes through to page 73. This covers all the vehicles that you might ask about. Now for transports page 66 is where you get the rules allowing certain vehicle to carry models, movement is on page 57. Hope this helps.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:your asking if a vehicle can move as a vehicle, which starts at page 56, and goes through to page 73. This covers all the vehicles that you might ask about. Now for transports page 66 is where you get the rules allowing certain vehicle to carry models, movement is on page 57. Hope this helps.

So vehicles may move and infantry may embark in vehicles? And infantry may be transported in those vehicles using rules which the infantry themselves do not have? Unless I'm reading those rules wrong.

So rules which pertain only to measure to units somehow allows you to measure to specific models?

Fail.

Your argument is conceded as you are now simply making up rules.

Now to disect your other fail:

1) It tells you to select the drop pods. It does not say "and any contained unit", just the drop pods.

2) "Units" in this context indicates the drop pod(s) selected to make the DPA. Odd, a whole section about DROP PODS talking about DROP PODS. Who would have thought!

3) The last line tells you what happens IF a unit has arrived using DPA and what it can then do. It does NOT contain permission to actually make the assault. I assume you can tell the difference? Or maybe not.

Fail all round KP

Let's keep it polite. It doesn't take that much more effort.

First to help zeshin, you need to read the section saying models may embark on vehicles. It does specifically deal with I think what your are trying to deal with. read the embarking and disembarkins section, also note under transport capacity third paragraph. No to the flamer!

nosferatu1001 wrote:So rules which pertain only to measure to units somehow allows you to measure to specific models?

Fail.

Obviously, you do not understand what is explained on page 3. A unit might be a single model, a unit might be a group of models. When you put those two things together, and then also add in how to measure to a unit inside a transport, and the wonderful question of how do you measure to a model inside a transport. The anwser is obvious.

Your argument is conceded as you are now simply making up rules.

You do not get to tell me what my arguement is, how it should be conducted or when it is over. Seeings how you cannot and will not show any kind of rules to back your claim. You have lost deal with it!

Now to disect your other fail:

1) It tells you to select the drop pods. It does not say "and any contained unit", just the drop pods.

You have to choose the transport to arrive yes, but guess what is inside those transports!!!. Also, at this point you have already declared how both the drop pod and the units inside are arriving. It does actually contain more info then you are reading.

2) "Units" in this context indicates the drop pod(s) selected to make the DPA. Odd, a whole section about DROP PODS talking about DROP PODS. Who would have thought!

Really, show me where it says exactly what you are saying as that would be a nice bit of info to have. The section as you should know as you are flaming me on, contains info on other units/models. Interesting how you can not see that.

3) The last line tells you what happens IF a unit has arrived using DPA and what it can then do. It does NOT contain permission to actually make the assault. I assume you can tell the difference? Or maybe not.

Which means that arriving by deepstrike via drop pod, see that right there, the drop pod confers deepstrike in the past tense. (Oh what a shocked look on your face) Which means it can happen, where as you have shown no credible evidence to your claim. So please get off the drop pod arguement and back to the outflanking vendetta arguement.

Fail all round KP

Actually, you have been the only one to fail!

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:First to help zeshin, you need to read the section saying models may embark on vehicles. It does specifically deal with I think what your are trying to deal with. read the embarking and disembarkins section, also note under transport capacity third paragraph. No to the flamer!

I was kinda hoping you'd take a re-read of that section. It talks about units embarking and disembarking, but gives not restriction or permission on vehicle movement other than to lay out what happens with vehicles or infantry who have moved before embarking/disembarking. An example of what I am saying is that a unit may embark on a skimmer and that skimmer may than move over impassable terrain. The embarked unit does not have to have the Skimmer rule in order for the skimmer to move. A unit in a vehicle may essentially move as that vehicle while embarked with no special permission required. If however your point on outflank were correct than the implication would be that no transport vehicle could go more than 6 inches per turn, nor could it utilize special rules such as being a skimmer.

KP - so you are saying a unit can arrive via deepstrike without having the DS rule?

You have yet to show how the unit gets Deepstrike. You know, the entire crux of your argument being that arriving from reserves requries that.

Yes, your argument failed because you made up rules. I want you to measure to model B in the unit. You CANNOT do so as you can only measure to the unit. Thus your argument has failed, and your making rules up does nto alter this.

Bye.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Now to disect your other fail:

1) It tells you to select the drop pods. It does not say "and any contained unit", just the drop pods.

You have to choose the transport to arrive yes, but guess what is inside those transports!!!. Also, at this point you have already declared how both the drop pod and the units inside are arriving. It does actually contain more info then you are reading.

So... are you arguing against yourself now? This is the exact thing you're arguing doesn't work in other situations, and you haven't provided any language that actually makes this situation special for the embarked unit.

Gorkamorka wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Now to disect your other fail:

1) It tells you to select the drop pods. It does not say "and any contained unit", just the drop pods.

You have to choose the transport to arrive yes, but guess what is inside those transports!!!. Also, at this point you have already declared how both the drop pod and the units inside are arriving. It does actually contain more info then you are reading.

So... are you arguing against yourself now? This is the exact thing you're arguing doesn't work in other situations, and you haven't provided any language that actually makes this situation special for the embarked unit.

Got to agree with Gorkamorka, it does seem pretty silly to argue for an entire thread that drop pods and outflanking vendettas/valkyries aren't the same only to then change your mind and still claim that someone else has "failed".

KP has done a bang up job debunking the popular Mythos that the IG skimmer works much like a SM drop pod. KP has shown the rules clearly for how the DP works while no has shown even one rule which explicitly states the IG skimmer can outflank with guardsmen onboard. It's all based upon inference and your best guess how you believe it to work. That is fine in and of itself but it no way validly supports the argument.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:KP has done a bang up job debunking the popular Mythos that the IG skimmer works much like a SM drop pod. KP has shown the rules clearly for how the DP works while no has shown even one rule which explicitly states the IG skimmer can outflank with guardsmen onboard. It's all based upon inference and your best guess how you believe it to work. That is fine in and of itself but it no way validly supports the argument.

And again by that logic any transport vehicle which has an infantry unit embarked may not move as a vehicle because the infantry unit does not have the appropriate vehicle rules.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:KP has done a bang up job debunking the popular Mythos that the IG skimmer works much like a SM drop pod. KP has shown the rules clearly for how the DP works while no has shown even one rule which explicitly states the IG skimmer can outflank with guardsmen onboard. It's all based upon inference and your best guess how you believe it to work. That is fine in and of itself but it no way validly supports the argument.

Heh, If by that you mean he has managed to be consistently wrong and inconsistent in his arguments, yeah, I'll agree with you. He hasn't quoted a single rule that says the squad in a Drop Pod can Deep Strike. Not one. Yet he insists it can. Either both work or neither works. It's really that simple.

Look at it this way. If you have to base your argument around the drop pod it's not much of an argument is it? Rules from one codex do not necessarily apply to another. And KP has shown all the rules for which he has based his position. How many times does he have to repeat himself?

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Look at it this way. If you have to base your argument around the drop pod it's not much of an argument is it? Rules from one codex do not necessarily apply to another. And KP has shown all the rules for which he has based his position. How many times does he have to repeat himself?

And infantry being transported in a skimmer when that infantry unit does not have the Skimmer rule?

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Look at it this way. If you have to base your argument around the drop pod it's not much of an argument is it? Rules from one codex do not necessarily apply to another. And KP has shown all the rules for which he has based his position. How many times does he have to repeat himself?

So providing an analogous situation, which requires an all or nothing answer (KPs "reading" of the rules requires either droppods cannot carry units or both DP AND Valks can carry units. There is NO MIDDLE GROUND) isnt worth it?

Sorry, that is exactly what a good argument is. I'm not surprised at your stance, however.

KP has shown an inconsistent approach which alters seemingly at random. It requires ignoring rules, making up random additional restrictions, which nothing else has to follow (like the droppod) and simply *making up rules* in order to make drop pods work again.

None of this constitutes a "good" argument. Not a single bit.

Okay lets take another look at the situation. The rule that I have shown, that the drop pod actually gains deepstrike is from the reserves rule. It has DPA, which says that drop pods deepstrike per the mission specail rules section in the brb, the pages I am refering you to are, 94-95. Specifcally, under arriving from reserves 3rd paragraph.

Zeshin you are clearly not understanding what I am trying to refer you to. Vehicles have thier own movement, I think we all know that. The problem is that you are in essence asking a question which has been answered and you are ignoring it. Also, this has nothing to do with arriving from reserves. To ease your mind I will go through the motions again. Trasports are covered on page 66, skimmers are covered on page 71, hopes this helps again. I would also like to note that skimmer is a type of vehicle, thusly and for that reason it is listed under the vehcile section in the BRB.

Don Mondo, I actually have not changed my stance one bit. I am answering the question being posed to me. While I am also trying to get those very same people to give me rules that back up thier postion. As I am sure you have read the entire thread to make a statment that I have changed my postion many times, please state where my opinion has changed. I feel like you actually, have not enen read this topic going back over this post you put up. You also do not add anything to this thread by making such statments which in fact hinder the discussion, and is against the forum rules. I have quoted many rules here, go back over the thread and see for yourself.

Zeshin again show me where you are getting that units inside hinder the movement of a vehicle, and we can go from there. I see in the vehicle section where it defines vehicles movement.

AlmightyWalrus, Gorkamorka, I have in fact shown and given citation of where I got this opinion. I said that both the drop pods and the units inside are arriving via DPA, which also states that the drop pod gains Deepstrike from the reserves rules, which is in the mission specail rules section. Allowing both the Drop Pods and units they are carrying to arrive from reserve. I have however not been presented with any evidence that the Vendetta/Valk arguement has any such information to back it up.

Nos please see above as I have stated it mulitple times and yet you have not read it somehow. Also, I would like for you to add a citation for your claim the outflanking veterans can arrive from reserve without the scouts,infiltrate, or outflank special rule. Also, Nos please tell me how you plan to show that you can make me measure to model B in a tactical squad anywhere in the rules and I will answer that very silly question.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Okay lets take another look at the situation. The rule that I have shown, that the drop pod actually gains deepstrike is from the reserves rule. It has DPA, which says that drop pods deepstrike per the mission specail rules section in the brb, the pages I am refering you to are, 94-95. Specifcally, under arriving from reserves 3rd paragraph.

I said that both the drop pods and the units inside are arriving via DPA, which also states that the drop pod gains Deepstrike from the reserves rules, which is in the mission specail rules section. Allowing both the Drop Pods and units they are carrying to arrive from reserve.

How is this evidence for your argument? Where does the DPA rule grant deepstrike to a drop pod's passengers or state that the pod is specially allowed to carry an embarked unit while arriving via the deepstrike granted by DPA?
You appear to be working very hard to prove that drop pods work without such specific language... which would prove your entire argument wrong.

Zeshin again show me where you are getting that units inside hinder the movement of a vehicle, and we can go from there. I see in the vehicle section where it defines vehicles movement.

This is the exact argument people are using to disprove your main point.
I am at a loss that you can't see the irony.

Because under your rules you are requiring that the embarked unit are "arriving from reserves using outflank" and therefore you must be able to measure to every model in the unit. You cannot do so. No amount of making up rules about what page 3 says gets around this. Which gives you a problem.

On the other hand I have shown GENERAL permission via:

General rule: I am embarked on a vehicle, and move with the vehicle
SPecific rule: Valk can Outflank.

And you have been unable to show a *specific* restriction. Utterly, utterly failed to do so.

No requirement for the embarked unit to have any ability to Outflank can be shown, as the embarked unit is NOT arriving via Outflank - they are an embarked unit.

Your argument fails spectacularly in that you attempt to make the unit within the Drop pod gain Deepstrike (or possibly not - you keep changin subject between unit and embarked unit, and confuse the two repeatedly) so that you can remove the contradiction in the your misreading of the rules results in the unit inside the droppod not being able to deepsrtike with the droppod, as they do not have the Deepstrike rule (and NEVER gain it)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I assume KP is trolling, as KP was apparently "ignorant" of the core mechanic in 5th edition allowing you to measure to / from an embarked unit. Which is such a core part of the game it doesnt seem reasonable to assume actual ignorance.

I'd suggest we stop feeding the inconsistent troll.