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Ok, so the rules, as far as I remember, say that you can't use outflank in a vehicle. I may have misread it, but I keep hearing people make references to Valkyries in Mechvet lists and chosen in Rhino's outflanking.

Did I miss something and I've been footslogging my chosen using outflank for the past couple weeks like a tard? Can I outflank in Rhino's?

Thanks in advance...and I'm sorry, I know this post has prolly come up like 50000000 times but i'm just curious.

pg 76 of the BBB answers all.

alarmingrick wrote:pg 76 of the BBB answers all.

Page 76 doesn't deal with Outflank, only Scouts.

Page 94 deals with Outflanking and Dedicated transports.

Regarding the Vendettas, they can outflank because the Vehicle itself has scout, the unit inside doesn't need it (the same way as a Drop Pod has Deep Strike but the Marines inside don't).

Sorry, i was refering to the "...rule also confers a special outflank move to units of scouts thare kept in reserve..." part.
right as always Gman.

@ Gwar - not having a rulebook nearby I was wondering if you can actually do that with vendettas. My understanding was that drop pods were dedicated transports purchased for a particular unit. Vendettas are not dedicated transports. Can they still confer the outflank benefit on any embarked unit?

Flinty wrote:@ Gwar - not having a rulebook nearby I was wondering if you can actually do that with vendettas. My understanding was that drop pods were dedicated transports purchased for a particular unit. Vendettas are not dedicated transports. Can they still confer the outflank benefit on any embarked unit?

Being a Dedicated Transport doesn't make the slightest bit of difference.

To quote page 67 (with my own emphasis), "The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters)."

So, either a Drop Pod Deep Strike with a unit of Marines who can't and a Vendetta can outflank with a unit of Veterans who can't, or Drop Pods don't work.

Which one do you think is the way the rules work?

There is NO conferring going on, is the end result.

If you are saying a vehicle cares about the occupents, then vehicles can only move 6" (speed of infantry) and cannot fire heavy weapons while moving (as their passengers generally cant)

Or, you realise that the vehicle and the unit are seperate units, and that the vehicles ability to do something is entirely independent, in this instance, of the embarked unit.

There are two ways for a unit in a vehicle to outflank.

1. A unit with Scouts is embarked on a dedicated transport. Note that it must be dedicated, not any old transport. P94
2. A vehicle has Scouts. Whether or not it has another unit transported the vehicle itself has it and can use that USR.

Scott-S6 wrote:There are at least three ways for a unit in a vehicle to outflank.

1. A unit with Scouts is embarked on a dedicated transport. Note that it must be dedicated, not any old transport. P94
2. A vehicle has Scouts. Whether or not it has another unit transported the vehicle itself has it and can use that USR.

3. A special rule, not a USR, such as Captain Al'Rahem's that forces/allows you to outflank, vehicles included.

Fixed it for you.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:There are at least three ways for a unit in a vehicle to outflank.

1. A unit with Scouts is embarked on a dedicated transport. Note that it must be dedicated, not any old transport. P94
2. A vehicle has Scouts. Whether or not it has another unit transported the vehicle itself has it and can use that USR.

3. A special rule, not a USR, such as Captain Al'Rahem's that forces/allows you to outflank, vehicles included.

Fixed it for you.

4. The vehicle has infiltrate

Irdiumstern wrote:

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:There are at least three ways for a unit in a vehicle to outflank.

1. A unit with Scouts is embarked on a dedicated transport. Note that it must be dedicated, not any old transport. P94
2. A vehicle has Scouts. Whether or not it has another unit transported the vehicle itself has it and can use that USR.

3. A special rule, not a USR, such as Captain Al'Rahem's that forces/allows you to outflank, vehicles included.

Fixed it for you.

4. The vehicle has infiltrate

Hence the change to "at least". I knew someone would jump on me for that if I just said 3.

To keep the thread going on a more educatuional route, what are all the ways a vehicle can outflank?

I still don't think its that clear cut. Reading the Reserves section on P94 it provides a process for nominating reserves and outflanking. Fair enough you can designate a unit to be transported by the Vendetta and they will be rolled for together. However in the last paragraph of the Preparing Reserves section and the Outflank section at the bottom of the next column it states

"During deployment, players may daclare that units with the Scout or Infiltrate special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy."

I don't see anything there that indicates that a Scouting transport can outflank with a non-scout unit. It does say that a transport and the unit it is carrying will be rolled for and arrive together, however you still have 2 units; one of which has Scout and the other one doesn't. This to me indicates that both units would need to have the appropriate skill to allow both to outflank.

Additionally the rule is very specific about dedicated transports being allowed to scout if the attached infantry unit has the rule.

Now I don't have a Space Marine codex to check the wording about how drop pods work, but seeing as drop pods have all sorts of other special rules they might cover this explicitly for Deep Strike.

It doesnt, hence it was brought up as an example.

As was said: if you are stating thet the embarked unit places restrictions on the transport, then why not be consistent - and that therefore the transport can only move 6", cannot fire heavy weapons on the move, and so on.

Now, the embarked unit DOES NOT place restrictions on the vehicle. So the vehicle is allowed to outflank, the vehicle can carry a unit, therefore you can outflank with the unit embarked. There is no prohibition so you have permission.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It doesnt, hence it was brought up as an example.

As was said: if you are stating thet the embarked unit places restrictions on the transport, then why not be consistent - and that therefore the transport can only move 6", cannot fire heavy weapons on the move, and so on.

Now, the embarked unit DOES NOT place restrictions on the vehicle. So the vehicle is allowed to outflank, the vehicle can carry a unit, therefore you can outflank with the unit embarked. There is no prohibition so you have permission.

Wait what? Are you not one of those people who say this game has a "Permissive rule set"? Seriously, you are saying because it doesn't say I can't, that means I can. Alright I am buying hammers for everyone!@!

Now what you might want to do is give a page refference (please I really am lost and have looked for it for a good 10-15 min in a hurry got to go to work and all) so that we can all see what you are saying. I can however point to the USR and say that on PG 76 under scouts it says that "a unit with this ability is deployed in a dedicated transport vehicle, it confers the scout ability to the transport too." But I do not see the converse. Or for some people it actually saying that vehicles give the scout USR to the units/models/squad inside the transport. It also references this on PG 94 under the outflank paragraph, last sentence.

Permission is granted (by the vehicle) and nothing removes it. That is not a "it does not say I can't" it is a "it says I can".

Again I feel your examples are somewhat fallacious (assuming I spelled that correctly ). Under the Embarkation section of the Transport Vehicle section on p66 explicitly states that if the vehicle has not moved before its passengers get aboard it may move as normal. The very strong implication being that vehicle movement is not affected by an infantry unit inside a transport. Similarly as a vehicle it will fire using the vehicle rules and not be affected by the infantry inside.

However for reserves you have 2 units, only one of which has the ability to outflank. You have to declare which units are making outflanking moves. In my view the fact that 2 units are rolled for together doesn't alter the fact that only units that have scouts or infiltrate can be declared as outflanking.

Flinty wrote:only units that have scouts or infiltrate can be declared as outflanking.

The transport is outflanking.

And therefore the transported unit is also outflanking, if able.

Right. Just like a unit of Tactical Marines is Deep Striking in their Drop Pod, despite themselves not having the Deep Strike rule.

Again, pardon my lack of Marine rules, but are Drop pods not dedicated transports? There is at least an implication that dedicated transports are handled differently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But actually, regardless, under my reading of RAW, Tactical marines can't deep strike in drop pods... Awesome

Actually no, there isnt - the ONLY difference in dedicated transports is who can deploy in them, as stated in the rules as the ONLY difference.

The vehicle can outflank. The vehicle can transport a unit. Nothing states that the unit must also be able to outflank for the vehicle to carry on.

General permission granted. Check. No specific restrictions aplpied. Check.

Done. Like this topic has been, on at least two other threads.

Flinty wrote:Again, pardon my lack of Marine rules, but are Drop pods not dedicated transports? There is at least an implication that dedicated transports are handled differently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But actually, regardless, under my reading of RAW, Tactical marines can't deep strike in drop pods... Awesome

Actually, under drop pod assault in the BA codex pg 32 the last sentence it states, "A unit that Deep Stikes Via Drop Pod cannot assault in the turn it arrives". So at this point the unit that does not normally have the Deep Strike rule has been granted it by the vehicle through a Special Rule. Unlike with scout, unless otherwise stated in a codex I do not have, the rule is not confered over. So Nos, and anyone else who is saying yes please quote me a page reference. Thank you!

Additionly, they are treated differently, because there is a section in the BRB dealing with exactly what they are. Dedicated transport section on the bottom of page 67.

So a transport with embarked models can only move as far as the embarked models would be allowed?
(Unless of course, the transport cannot even move that far.)

Actually KP it hasnt been given it. It tells you what happens if a unit DOES arrive via deepstrike (it cannot assault) but nowhere in that sentence does it actually grant the DS rule to the models. At all. If you believe it does, page please.

I have shown general permission, please show specific restriction on the embarked unit. Page please.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually no, there isnt - the ONLY difference in dedicated transports is who can deploy in them, as stated in the rules as the ONLY difference.

The vehicle can outflank. The vehicle can transport a unit. Nothing states that the unit must also be able to outflank for the vehicle to carry on.

Except for the bit that says you need to declare that a unit will be outflanking. Nowhere does it say that a unit transported in an outflanking vehicle can come along for the ride. Comparison to Drop Pods is relevant but not necessarily convincing. Drop pods are specifically designed to provide the deep strike ability to units that cannot normally do it. Vendettas can transport units with the appropriate skills to allow them to outflank, however they can also transport non-outflanky units. In the case of outflanking I don't think the evidence stacks up.

@ Kirsanth - as noted above the embarkation rules indicate that vehicles transporting infantry move as normal for vehicles. I am not questioning the transport rules, merely the method that one should designate reserves and declaring outflanking

The unit is not outflanking, so why would it need outflank?

If I dredge up the last few times that this topic has degenerated into a needlessly long argument, can we just skip to the part where this thread gets locked, too?

The first locked thread in the search results for 'transport' and 'outflank':
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/279857.page

Flinty - see Solkans link. As I stated, this has been discussed a number of times before.

You declare the unit is embarked. You now only need to talk about the vehicle, and the vehicle can outflank. Done, sorted, permission granted etc.

Oh well... Teh Intarwab appears to have spoken. Just because it has been discussed before doesn't mean that the earlier thread conclusion was the correct one

I still feel that the reserves selection and outflanking declaration demands that both units require Scouts to benefit, but I guess mob rules

Lock it up.

Not mob rules at all, just that you have yet to provide a specifc rule overriding the permission of the vehicle to outflank.

You are not outflanking the embarked unit: you know this as they dont make a roll for which side they come in from, the vehicle does.