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This one I agree with Flinty.

Brilliant. Any rules to back that up?

I agree with Nosferatu. Vendettas have scout, and so can make their 12" move before turn 1, even if something is embarked, right? If the unit inside not having scout prevented outflanking, wouldn't it prevent this too?

@Nos - Yes. P94 of the rulebook where it states clearly that all units must be declared as using Scout or Infiltrate to outflank. If the unit doesn't have the rule it can't outflank. It also clearly states that units in a transport are rolled together with the transport, however it doesn't say that a transport with Scout can outflank with a non-scouting unit inside. The key point is that the units are rolled for together, not that the transport unit takes precedence over what rules can be applied.

@Fifty - I don't think thats the same issue. The scout move is a vehicle move and as implied in the transport vehicle rules, the embarked unit doesn't affect the movement of the unit. The vendetta can make a scout move, but the embarked troopes would not be able to disembark as part of the move as they do not have Scout themselves. Again, I am not challenging the transport rules at all I a challenging the reserves selection and declaration rules for transport units with Scout.

SO it is ok to make a scout move but not to outflank? Despite both abilities being granted by the vehicle?

The unit inside is NOT outflanking, the vehicle is. THat is all that is needed...

So Flinty, do you think that Space Marines get to deep strike in their Drop Pods, even tho the Tac Squad does not have Deep Strike but the transport does?

If you do, then why are you arguing against the same thing here regarding Valk/Vend and embarked untis?

@Nos - I think it is ok for the Scout move to be made because the models are on the board and the transport is able to make a scout move. The infantry inside cannot disembark because they themselves cannot Scout. My concern is that with reserves you need to declare all units that are outflanking. The fact that you roll for the two units together doesn't mean that you can declare the tranported unit can outflank.

@don_mondo - Its a different unit in a different army, but by RAW I would say that they can't. On the other hand drop pods can do only one thing so it is much easier to accept that units can deep strike inside drop pods. Vendettas and Valkyries can do a whole range of things and can carry a range of units with and without Scout and/or Infiltrate. I just think its a step too far to apply the Scouts outflanking benefit to anything that happens to be inside the transport. To be honest it provides a reason to field Stormtroopers rather than veteran squads.

Flinty wrote: My concern is that with reserves you need to declare all units that are outflanking.

And you are.

Only the transport is being deployed via Outflank.
The embarked unit is being deployed in the transport.

In the terms of P94 neither unit is deployed. Both units are declared as being left in reserve and will arrive together as a result of a single reserves roll. Again to quote the Reserves rules:

"If units in reserve have the 'deep strike', 'scout', or 'infiltrate' special rule, the player must declare to his opponent, during army deployment, whether they are going to use their special rules to deep strike/outflank or they are going to enter from his own table edge when they become available (see Arriving from Reserve)."

The terminology regarding transports in reserve is that "the units will be rolled for together and will arrive together." Nowhere does it state that the units become a single entity able to use the most advantageous rules available to either unit. Conversely it specifically states that infantry units with Scout and a dedicated transport can pass the special rule benefit over to the transport.

The transport is rolled with the embarked units.

The transport is declared to outflank.

The units are declared to be embarked.

The this can be done with dedicated transport without scout if the embarked units have scout.

Non-dedicated transports cannot do this unless they can scout. (Or infiltrate, but none spring to mind.)

Flinty wrote:To be honest it provides a reason to field Stormtroopers rather than veteran squads.

?? Really? I can't think of any.

@Kirsanth - Its a logical progression, and one that I considered myself, but I still don't think the rules support it.

@don_mondo - Because Stormtroopers can get infiltrate or scouts to be able to outflank with a vendetta/valkyrie and Veterans can't.

But see, veterans don't need it cause the vehicle provides. See?

Oh God-Emperor not this again.

Vets can outflank in a Vendetta the same way Marines can Deep Strike inside a Pod.

It's that simple.

It's already been pointed out that the drop pod is a strawman argument.

A Strawman is a specific kind of logical fallacy, where you pretend that your opponent is arguing something other than what he really is saying, so as to more easily prevail (it's easier to knock down a straw man than a real one) in the argument. The flaw being that you haven't actually defeated his argument, just a misrepresentation of it.

The Drop Pod is a completely legitimate example of a parallel case to the Valkyrie.

Flinty - not all the models are on the board; the embarked unit is inside the vehicle that is scouting forwards.

You may not be convinced, but you dont havea rule that contradicts the permission given in the transport rules. Until you can come up with that restriction, and p94 does not do it, you can do it.

In addition arrival from reserves is deployment.

BloodThirSTAR - erm, no, no it isnt. Listen to Mannahnin, the mod speaks the truth.

Here are my thoughts on the drop pod versus an IG skimmer and why I think the comparison is invalid. A drop pod is a dedicated transport while not so for the IG skimmer. If you take a unit with a drop pod then it's covered by the rules in their entry. This is not the case with say a squad of IG veterans in a Vendetta... It's not stated in the rules that you can outflank the guardsmen unlike the Marines in a drop pod - to say they can is an inference of the rules as nowhere do the rules specifically say you can. The drop pod is the de facto example given to support this but it's flawed. That's why I say it's a strawman. It sounds on good on the surface but closer examination of the rules says otherwise. A lot of people will buy off on the argument because it does sound good.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:A drop pod is a dedicated transport while not so for the IG skimmer.

This is completely irrelevant.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Flinty - not all the models are on the board; the embarked unit is inside the vehicle that is scouting forwards.

You may not be convinced, but you dont havea rule that contradicts the permission given in the transport rules. Until you can come up with that restriction, and p94 does not do it, you can do it.

In addition arrival from reserves is deployment.

BloodThirSTAR - erm, no, no it isnt. Listen to Mannahnin, the mod speaks the truth.

Again, Nos, please give me a page reference for your inference of the rules. Additionally, can you site a page reference for general permission for a unit with scout allowing something that does not have scout to outflank. Or anything that says under the Vendetta section saying that units inside my outflank inside the vehicle.

Furthermore, you again have said in essence since it does not say I cannot do this... I can!

Also, with the drop pod and tactical marines, if you actually look at the arriving from reserve section they actually gain deep strike from that section. Drop pods, at least in the BA codex do not have DeepStrike, and since they do not actually have the rule for deepstrike they are given permission to arrive by deepstrike inside the vehiclen by the reserves section (arriving from reserves last paragraph). Again in the reserves rule on the bottom of page 94, second paragraph it does mention that all units are arriving from reserves. So your statment about a unit that is in a Vendetta, but not actually deployed is debunked.

Wrong. I have said I CAN do this because of general permission ( can Outflank a vehicle with Scout, I CAN embark a unit in the vehicle before deployment) and you have yet to show I cannot - which is a difference.

Page references? Reserves rules and the rules for models with Scout or Infiltrate. All that is needed.

Note that the unit inside is not "arriving by outflank", therefore no rule required to allow them to do so.

Bloodthirster - being a dedicated transport has NO BEARING on the situation at all. Read page 67 about dedicated transports, note the ONLY difference between dedicated and normal transports, and perhaps admit your error.

Keep in mind guys, the unit does not move on from the board edge or move at all, it's the vehicle performing these actions.

Actually Nos you have only reiterated your opinion, and not given any proof from the book as to why you can. Saying you can because you say there is general permission is different the saying you can because (place page reference/quote from BRB or other text here) says you can.

Addtionally, your claim of all is needed is scouts/infiltrate is in fact wrong, as has been discussed in this very thread before. You do not have permission to transfer rules from the Vendetta or any vehicle that does not specifically say that it transfers to units inside of the vehicle. While there is specific statments multiple times in the book saying that the squads inside do transfer rules. So please site a page reference where what you are claiming is true, and we can move forward and accept what your are saying.

Futhermore, page 94 rolling for reserves second paragraph disagrees with you. Seeing how you roll for both the Vendetta and the squad being carried inside, they both arrive from reserves as they are both coming onto the table. Also on that very same page before that you must declare how your units are going to arrive from reserves. And in fact it does say that they arrive together. (Second sentence 4th paragraph, second sentence.) So since you have to declare that both units are arriving by outflank you cannot do this since one unit does not have the rules to allow it to!

That should end this discussion.

No, their rolled for together if the squad is embarked, the vehicle outflanks. Now, "When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s own table edge (unless it’s deep striking or outflanking). Each model’s move is measured from the edge of the battlefield,"

Can you tell me how to measure to an embarked model please? Or even tell me how you're gpoing to move the non-vehilce unit (your not)

You need to actually read a little bit more because first you must declare what you are keeping in reserve, and how they are going to arrive. If you are going to put a squad inside of the Vendetta you have to declare by the wording in the book that both the Vendetta and the squad inside are actually outflanking. Since the the squad inside does not have scout or infiltrate or outflank you cannot make that declaration. Secondly, I understand that you are only moving the vehicle, that is not the problem. The problem comes from the fact that you are using a rule for a unit that does not have that rule. It also does not confer the rules of the transport to the unit it is carrying. So you cannot outflank a squad inside a vehicle unless both the squad and the vehicle (which the vehicle can gain from the squad inside, but not vice versa) have the scout, infiltrate, outflank rules.

Reguardless of the fact that you cannot measure to the units inside the transports, they are arriving together, and they are both arriving by outflank, which only one of the two units arriving together has. Additionally, you are making the case that no models at any time my be measured to inside a transport for any reason. I think that there are multiple situations where this is not true, as you measure to and from the hull for Pyschic powers. That is niether here nor there. The rules as dictated on page 94 spell out what is happening when these situations happen.

You declare that the squad is arriving embarked in the vehicle.
You declare the vehicle is outflanking.

Rules satisfied, permission granted from the Scout rule possessed by the vehicle, the Reserves rules dictating how units can be combined while in reserve.

You can look up both those page numbers for yourself, I gave you the sections.

Now find a section where it states that, explicitly, a unit embarked in a vehicle affects the vehicles rules at all. Find where the Vehicles ability to Scout, either while on the table or as Outflank, is affected by an embarked unit.

Find where the models embarked in the vehicle have moved on from the edge of the board. Dont dodge the question - you are stating the embarked models are arriving from reserve via Outflank, therefore they must have moved on from the edge of the board. Please find ruels to measure INDIVIDUAL models, not units, when embarked. You are also inc orrect in your assertion that Chris' assertion is false: you can measure to embarked UNITS, you cannot measure to MODELS. Stop dropping / conflating important terms if you want your argument to hold water.

A unit embarked in a skimmer do not have to have the skimmer rule in order for the skimmer to move, a unit embarked in a drop pod do not have to have the deepstrike rule to arrive via the deepstrike rules, so why would a unit embarked in an outflanking transport have to have the outflank rule?

The transport vehicle rules give permission for embarked units to be transported per those vehicles rules.

Which is the argument all along, and the "other side" have yet to show any evidence against.

Its like being asked to find a rule allowing you to deploy inside woods in your deployment zone - you can find general rules, whcih is sufficient.

The process for reserves is specifically stated on pg 94.

Section: Mission Special Rules - Reserves - Preparing reserves.

Steps listed - paragraph 3

Step 1:
"First he must specify to the opponent if any independent characters left in reserve are joining a unit..."

I am leaving my Vendetta and Sister of Battle squad in reserve

Step 2:
"Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserves is carrying any of the infantry units...if they do the unit and transport will be rolled together and arrive together"

I am embarking my Sister of Battle squad in the Vendetta

Step 3:
"If units in reserve have the 'deep strike,' 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rule, the player must declare to his opponent...whether they are going to use their special rules to deep strike/outflank..."

I am outflanking my Vendetta. You do not declare for the Sisters because they are in the transport and arrive with it...done?

The only time it matters if the transport is dedicated or not is for 'Scouts' on page 76 which specifically states the rule is conferred to a dedicated transport (enabling the transport to outflank or make a scout move if desired).

nosferatu1001 wrote:You declare that the squad is arriving embarked in the vehicle.
You declare the vehicle is outflanking.

Rules satisfied, permission granted from the Scout rule possessed by the vehicle, the Reserves rules dictating how units can be combined while in reserve.

You can look up both those page numbers for yourself, I gave you the sections.

Now find a section where it states that, explicitly, a unit embarked in a vehicle affects the vehicles rules at all. Find where the Vehicles ability to Scout, either while on the table or as Outflank, is affected by an embarked unit.

Find where the models embarked in the vehicle have moved on from the edge of the board. Dont dodge the question - you are stating the embarked models are arriving from reserve via Outflank, therefore they must have moved on from the edge of the board. Please find ruels to measure INDIVIDUAL models, not units, when embarked. You are also inc orrect in your assertion that Chris' assertion is false: you can measure to embarked UNITS, you cannot measure to MODELS. Stop dropping / conflating important terms if you want your argument to hold water.

First, lets get this straight. You have not sited any rules page from the BRB. So you saying you have given us any pages is wrong. Secondly, since the reserve rules say that both the units arrive together, they put the restriction that both the units (which still arrive together) need to have the rule they are attempting to use. Additionally, you have yet to show that the rules of the vehicle can and will effect models they are carrying. Or in other words. That USR's or any special rules that do not say that they effect units inside are allowed to effect units they are carrying. So stop dodging that. I am not saying that you have to measure to the models inside. I am saying they are restricted from using a specail rule they do not have in the first place. You must declare that your units, in this case the Vendetta and the (insert squad without infiltrate, scout, or outflank rules here) are going to outflank. Do you see the problem. You are forcing a unit that does not have a special rule to use that specail rule. They arrive together, they are restricted from using specail rules they do not have. Please for the love of god find me a page that references that vehicle specail rules confer over to units inside, or find something that contradicts the reserves rules that says they arrive together.