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KP, the fact that the rules don't require an infantry unit to have the skimmer rules to ride in a skimmer, or why an infantry unit in a DP don't have to have the DS (or drop pod assault) rule to arrive by drop pod is the point. A vehicle may transport an infantry unit using the vehicles rules for movement/deployment, not the infantry units rules.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Look at it this way. If you have to base your argument around the drop pod it's not much of an argument is it? Rules from one codex do not necessarily apply to another. And KP has shown all the rules for which he has based his position. How many times does he have to repeat himself?

Until he gets it right. Which he hasn't.............................


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Don Mondo, I actually have not changed my stance one bit. I am answering the question being posed to me. While I am also trying to get those very same people to give me rules that back up thier postion. As I am sure you have read the entire thread to make a statment that I have changed my postion many times, please state where my opinion has changed. I feel like you actually, have not enen read this topic going back over this post you put up. You also do not add anything to this thread by making such statments which in fact hinder the discussion, and is against the forum rules. I have quoted many rules here, go back over the thread and see for yourself.

Zeshin again show me where you are getting that units inside hinder the movement of a vehicle, and we can go from there. I see in the vehicle section where it defines vehicles movement.

Actually, you have, just reading your posts proves that. And we have given you the rules, try reading them.

And re what you asked of Zeshin, that's the exact argument YOU are using to try to disprove the Valk/Vendetta ability, that an embarked unti affects a transport's movement. So how about YOU show that the untis inside hinder the movement of the transport. If you cannot, then the Valk/Vendetta can Outflank with a unit embarked.

No one has listed a specific rule that explicitly states you can scout move guardsmen in a vendetta or Valkyrie. This is an excellent exercise however for anyone who wants to learn how to obfuscate.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:No one has listed a specific rule that explicitly states you can scout move guardsmen in a vendetta or Valkyrie. This is an excellent exercise however for anyone who wants to learn how to obfuscate.

"A transport may carry a single infantry unit and/or any number of independent characters (as long as they count as infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicles transport capacity." Page 66, main rulebook, section entitled "Transport Vehicles" fourth paragraph down. You are not going to get any more specific unfortunately just as you are not going to find specific permission for a Tau Pathfinder squad to move over impassable terrain while in a Devilfish.

And again can anyone prove that an embarked squad is deployed from a table edge? And show where we measure to it and it's models for it's movment?

ChrisCP wrote:And again can anyone prove that an embarked squad is deployed from a table edge? And show where we measure to it and it's models for it's movment?

Umm, you don't need to. If a squad is inside a transport they move and deploy as the vehicle (otherwise basic vehicle movement wouldn't even work). There are instances where you are told to measure to/from them for shooting etc but that is all.

ChrisCP wrote:And again can anyone prove that an embarked squad is deployed from a table edge? And show where we measure to it and it's models for it's movment?

Nos did we just not go over this, when measuring to a unit measure to the transport. Now you are going back and forth on this question.

Check a couple of pages ago actually, I have proven that they do arrive from the table edge. So you would need to measure there.

Secondly, I do not even know where to begin with this seeings how I have made every attempt to keep this a polite discussion. Nos you fail, you just fail to understand to try to understand or even take anything that is not your idea into account. I am truely saddened by your obvious disrespect to me and everyone else.

Zeshin, the skimmer rules are carried by the transport, which I have shown you can carry units inside. They have the rules to allow units to be transported page 66. I just do not understand how you do not get that.

Don Mondo, you know what actually prevents units arriving from deepstrike, outflank? Oh yea page 94, which I have cited numerous times and have been ignored, where it says all units kept in reserves must declare how they are entering play!!!!! This has nothing to do with movement and you seem to, as well as zeshin and Nos, fail to grasp this. Seeings how the rule says you must explain how your units are organized, and that units and their transports arrive together, they must have rules which allow them to arrive anyway other then coming on from their owners table edge together!. Seeings how veterans do not have scout or inflitrate or outflank, they cannot in fact be declared to outflank and the transport rules do not cover this. How hard is that to understand????? I have given you the reserve rules over and over and over again. page 94 please for all of our sanity read them, and leave the flaming out of it. I am not arguing that the vehicles movement is hindered I am arguing that it is an illegal starting place for your models to come on the table.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Zeshin, the skimmer rules are carried by the transport, which I have shown you can carry units inside. They have the rules to allow units to be transported page 66. I just do not understand how you do not get that.

I don't understand how you don't "get" that those same implied permissions* your talking about allow a unit to outflank in a transport just as easily as they allow a unit to travel 12" in a skimmer over impassable terrain (or any other movement which infantry cannot normally do).

*nowhere does it say that a unit may be transported, simply that they may embark on a transport vehicle.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Don Mondo, you know what actually prevents units arriving from deepstrike, outflank? Oh yea page 94, which I have cited numerous times and have been ignored, where it says all units kept in reserves must declare how they are entering play!!!!! This has nothing to do with movement and you seem to, as well as zeshin and Nos, fail to grasp this. Seeings how the rule says you must explain how your units are organized, and that units and their transports arrive together, they must have rules which allow them to arrive anyway other then coming on from their owners table edge together!. Seeings how veterans do not have scout or inflitrate or outflank, they cannot in fact be declared to outflank and the transport rules do not cover this. How hard is that to understand????? I have given you the reserve rules over and over and over again. page 94 please for all of our sanity read them, and leave the flaming out of it. I am not arguing that the vehicles movement is hindered I am arguing that it is an illegal starting place for your models to come on the table.

Sorry, I ignored this originally because of all the bold and "??????" internet anger BS. When declaring reserves you are declaring that the unit is in the transport and by the same implied permission I noted above your unit may arrive inside the transport using the transports rules (e.g. outflank, DS).

A unit embarked in the transport moves with the transport... they dont suddenly get left behind when the vehicle moves. And the vehicle moves according to the rules according to that vehicle. If a vehicle is elected to be in reserve with another unit, but they are not embarked on it, they must be deployed together, if they plan to outflank, they must be in the vehicle.

Units with scout, embarked in a vehicle confer the scout rule onto the vehicle, the scout rule allows for outflank when the unit is kept in reserve.

Page 66 states that when a unit embarks, its removed from the table, and noted that the unit is being transported by that vehicle.

"Seeings how veterans do not have scout or inflitrate or outflank, they cannot in fact be declared to outflank and the transport rules do not cover this"

If the veterans are deployed within a vehicle that has the scout rule, that vehicle does not lose the scout rule.

zeshin wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:And again can anyone prove that an embarked squad is deployed from a table edge? And show where we measure to it and it's models for it's movment?

Umm, you don't need to. If a squad is inside a transport they move and deploy as the vehicle (otherwise basic vehicle movement wouldn't even work). There are instances where you are told to measure to/from them for shooting etc but that is all.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:And again can anyone prove that an embarked squad is deployed from a table edge? And show where we measure to it and it's models for it's movment?

Nos did we just not go over this, when measuring to a unit measure to the transport. Now you are going back and forth on this question.

Movment measurement is done to models, making movement of a unit inside a transpot impossible to measure.
You do not measure movement for a unit in a transport.
The unit is arriving embarked in their vehicle.
The outflank move is measure from the table edge to the models that have move on from reserves.
We cannot measure to the models involved in the infantry unit.
Ergo - no transport can carry an embarked unit on from reserves or a transport can carry units on from reserves.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:No one has listed a specific rule that explicitly states you can scout move guardsmen in a vendetta or Valkyrie. This is an excellent exercise however for anyone who wants to learn how to obfuscate.

Please find the explicit rule allowing you to deploy Guardsmen into Woods inside your deployment zone.

If you cannot do so then perhaps you will learn just how the game rules work. Expicit permission is not required if you have obtained general permission.

KP - apparently you cannot tell the difference between ChrisCP and myself.

For the final time of asking: find the rules that allow you to deepstrike when embarked on a Drop Pod. You seem to require that the unit also has Deepstrike, yet have been unable to show this . Currently your "argument", in the loosest sense of the word, denies units from entering play via a drop pod.
In addition page 3 does not say what you state it does. It does not state that you can measure to a model by measuring to the unit. Not at all. You are making rules up in a rules discussion.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

BloodThirSTAR wrote:No one has listed a specific rule that explicitly states you can scout move guardsmen in a vendetta or Valkyrie. This is an excellent exercise however for anyone who wants to learn how to obfuscate.

Please find the explicit rule allowing you to deploy Guardsmen into Woods inside your deployment zone.

If you cannot do so then perhaps you will learn just how the game rules work. Expicit permission is not required if you have obtained general permission.

KP - apparently you cannot tell the difference between ChrisCP and myself.

For the final time of asking: find the rules that allow you to deepstrike when embarked on a Drop Pod. You seem to require that the unit also has Deepstrike, yet have been unable to show this . Currently your "argument", in the loosest sense of the word, denies units from entering play via a drop pod.
In addition page 3 does not say what you state it does. It does not state that you can measure to a model by measuring to the unit. Not at all. You are making rules up in a rules discussion.

Actually Nos, I stated that page 3 defines what units and models are when combined with the other rules we talked about (page 66 embarking) thats how you measure to a model embarked in a vehicle. Seeings how I am going to have to type this again, HERE WE GO, A unit that deepstrikes via drop pod. For all you general permission specialists, what does via mean? Does that possibly mean by way of? So lets work this out by replacing via with by way of! A unit that deepstrikes by way of drop pod.... so there, you have general permission, because you can take a drop pod as a transport. I know I annoy the crap out of you Nos but really this constant childlike behaviour is enough. Grow up! I appaulogize for refering to you but in the end did you not just ask the same question in the end?
And have I not answered it over again? You fail, yet again, to do anything but take issue with me. You also have a wonderful nack, might I add, for presenting arguements that have nothing to do with what is currently being discussed (well done, well done indeed!). Straight out of left field that one is.

I would also like to take a moment and note that under rolling for reserves section does say that you deploy the unit, so yes the unit inside is deployed when it arrives with a transport. Thus making it harder for everyone!! (that is suppose to be funny)

Zeshin actually, if you read the embarking rules it does say that a "transport may carry...." page 66 under transport capacity. With this statment, and the embarking rules it is quite clear that yes models/units may be carried/transported in a game of 40k. Also, the skimmer rules if I am not mistaken are actually, rules for a vehicle type. So the skimmer rules cannot be applied to a unit.

Seriphis I am not claiming that the vehicle loses anything. I am simply stating that when the vehicle, and unit it is carrying is declared for reserves you cannot claim that they will be outflanking seeings how, 1) they both arrive (are deployed) together, and 2) both do not have the rules to allow them to outflank. It might be different if say, the reserves rules said something like a vehicle may carry any unit onto the board from reserves with any special rules the transport may have, but we are not that lucky. We could also be lucky if the scouts/infiltrate rules allowed the vehicle to pass its rule over, but we only have squads passing it onto their transports.

ChrisCp that seems like a slippery slope arguement right there. It is not one or the other, seeing how the rules make it clear that you must declare how each unit is arriving from reserves, please cite for me where it says you can claim to outflank without the scouts/infiltrate/outflank rule. It seems we have all been lost in the weeds about this entire discussion, never have I said that vehicles cannot move as normal, or that they cannot transport. (actually it is all my oppenents coming up with these question) I have simply made the case over and over again, with no proof from the other side about their claim, that units cannot arrive using a special rule they do not have. I have stated that, units are allowed to arrive by a special rule given or obtained by taking the vehicle they are being transported in. Now before you all get your panties in a twist, DPA does mention units arriving by way of, so stop before you start to blow a capularie.

"A unit that arrives via" does not tell you that the unit CAN arrive via the drop pod, it tells you what happens ****IF**** they do.

So no, you fail again. And again. And again. And how is the drop pod not relevant? Have you not realised the two are analogous?

I have declared that the unit is arriving frmo reserve embarked in the Skimmer. Done. Next?

I would suggest a spell check, as your "arguments" are getting more incoherent. Less use of emoticons would help as well.

(also: no, no annoyance. Amusement at your constant flip flopping, your abiltiy to MAKE UP RULES when you want to, and bemusement at your desire to add arbitrary restrictions to one unit but not another. Brilliant "argument" you have here)

Finally: Page 3 does not let you measure to a unit if you want to measure to a specific model in the unit. A-> B does not necessarily mean that B->A. This isnt your only logical fallacy this thread, but is perhaps one you can finally realise you are making.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

Actually Nos, I stated that page 3 defines what units and models are when combined with the other rules we talked about (page 66 embarking) thats how you measure to a model embarked in a vehicle.

This is false

Seeings how I am going to have to type this again, HERE WE GO, A unit that deepstrikes via drop pod. For all you general permission specialists, what does via mean? Does that possibly mean by way of? So lets work this out by replacing via with by way of! A unit that deepstrikes by way of drop pod.... so there, you have general permission, because you can take a drop pod as a transport.

This is important

I would also like to take a moment and note that under rolling for reserves section does say that you deploy the unit, so yes the unit inside is deployed when it arrives with a transport.

This is also important

if you read the embarking rules it does say that a "transport may carry...." page 66 under transport capacity. With this statment, and the embarking rules it is quite clear that yes models/units may be carried/transported in a game of 40k. Also, the skimmer rules if I am not mistaken are actually, rules for a vehicle type. So the skimmer rules cannot be applied to a unit.

This is inane

I am not claiming that the vehicle loses anything.

Important...

I am simply stating that when the vehicle, and unit it is carrying is declared for reserves you cannot claim that they will be outflanking seeings how, 1) they both arrive (are deployed) together, and 2) both do not have the rules to allow them to outflank.

This is where your argument starts to contradict itself with reference to the important parts

It might be different if say, the reserves rules said something like a vehicle may carry any unit onto the board from reserves with any special rules the transport may have, but we are not that lucky.

Drop pods don't say that either

We could also be lucky if the scouts/infiltrate rules allowed the vehicle to pass its rule over, but we only have squads passing it onto their transports.

ChrisCp that seems like a slippery slope arguement right there.

It isn't, your assertion that one can't outflank with a unit because they are being deployed in an invalid location rests upon the principal, the unit is 'arriving by way of transport' if one could (had to) measure the movement of the models when they are embarked then, yes, they are arriving from an illegal location, as however they are embarked and we can not measure to them/movement for them it is legal

It is not one or the other, seeing how the rules make it clear that you must declare how each unit is arriving from reserves,

Arriving together with the transport, or, arriving via transport

please cite for me where it says you can claim to outflank without the scouts/infiltrate/outflank rule.

I don't need to they are embarked and one can not measure their movement

It seems we have all been lost in the weeds about this entire discussion, never have I said that vehicles cannot move as normal, or that they cannot transport.

This is what you are saying however, if I go flat out with my trukk then my boyz have performed an illegal move >6"

(actually it is all my oppenents coming up with these question) I have simply made the case over and over again, with no proof from the other side about their claim,

You or they if these are their questions do not seem to understand the proof - ever try to force understanding on someone?

that units cannot arrive using a special rule they do not have.

They don't the vehicle does and it's carrying (moving for) them

I have stated that, units are allowed to arrive by a special rule given or obtained by taking the vehicle they are being transported in. Now before you all get your panties in a twist, DPA does mention units arriving by way of, so stop before you start to blow a capularie.

"Capillary" - enunciate better.

No common vehicle ever says that it conferrers a rule iirc, your reading of the word 'via' to means 'grants the deep-strike rule to the embarked unit' is fallacious, it doesn't say that and if it did it would actually be necessary to scatter both the pod and the contents as both units would have to follow the deep-strike rules

I apologise for the quote tags, I hate them but this was easiest, and we ran over my cat when we arrived home.

NO worries, I normally C&P the opening quote for the user, and just add manual /quote tags.

KP will probably retort with "read page 3!!!!" anyway, not sure its worth bothering. Logical fallacies abound with KPs posts on this thread, anyway.

Sorry to hear about your cat, hope he/she's ok - have 2 myself. (yes, a gay couple with cats, who'd have thought )

Guys, we might as well give up. KP ain't gonna change his mind and we ain't gonna change ours.

Agreed. Besides, arguing against someone who makes up rules is tricky...

Sorry to hear about your cat chriscp, to address somethings. First that quote you said was inane, I was actually trying to point zeshin to the rules that allow transports to carry/transport units. I am sorry that I confused you seeings how I am arguing with multiple people, I thought I put his name in front of that citation.

I have one question for you though, how can you say "my vendetta and the squad it is carrying are going to outflank", when the squad does not have any rules to allow it to outflank? See how that works there. My problem all along has been people must state how any unit they have in reserve are going to arrive (be deployed). Unlike the drop pod there is no/none/zero/zilch amount of evidence that the vehicle passes any kind of ability, or allows the unit inside to arrive any other way then coming in from their owners side. If there is please cite a page reference and I am more then willing to hunt it down. I would also like you to note that under embarking, it says "If the players need to measure a range involving an embarked unit (execpt for shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicles hull." So I have provided that you can in fact measure the range of where the vehicle, and models arrived together from. As I am sure youhave noticed, I post when I can about something that I am involved in. Last night I got home pretty late, and had a brain fart when spelling some words. So kind of you to notice, and point out btw.

Oh and Nos I do not make up any rules, nor do I insult people over and over again for no other reason then to make myself feel better, or to just insult them, please stop this. Also stop making claims about me as you do not know who I am, how I think, or how I treat other people.

This is where you are creating a requirement that is not in the rules. (and where Nos is indicating you are making up rules)

You do not state the embarked squad is Outflanking just like you do not state the SM Tactical in a DP is deep striking. You merely embark the unit and then DS or outflank the transport.

The reserves rules take care of the rest. They ask -
How do I roll for the unit and transports?
Together.

How do they come in?
Embarked in the transport.

When successful what does the transport do?
It is outflanking.

Is the embarked unit arriving from reserves?
Yes it is, and doing so inside its transport.

All conditions satisfied.

Also, there is zero, nada, zilch that implies a DP provides the DS ability to an embarked squad. All it says is if you arrive in it by DS (and it doesn't care how you do so) you cannot
assault.

Edit: Also, for the last time. You do not state how every unit arrives from reserves. You just indicate which is DS, Infiltrating or Outflanking. Otherwise they just arrive from reserves with the SPECIFIC condition they be embarked on the transport putting them in the transport.

Actually KP is making up rules in two areas - you got the first, the second is in making the hilarious claim that you can measure to embarked models, despite no rules allowing you to do so. The rules that KP are using imply one direction, and KP is making the logical fallacy (at least one area KP is consistent on, at least) that it implies the other way. It doesnt.

KP - you are making up rules, as you are adding restr4ictions that simply do not exist. Not at all. You also make up rules for Drop Pod Assault in a vain attempt to allow them to work while denying Vendettas using the same logic.

Give up. Noone will believe your argument, as it simply isnt logical, doesnt follow the rules in the rulebook, and makes up rules out of whole cloth. You have been shown, repeatedly, where you have made up rules yet you will claim the sky is green seemingly forever. I have not got the energy to continue to show you where you are wrong, as you are not willing to listen to anyone.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I have not got the energy to continue to show you where you are wrong, as you are not willing to listen to anyone.

So stop pretending that someone has to 'win' the discussion, and move on.