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i belive that Stubborn troops never take any Ld modifiers for any tests that are based off their Ld characteristic.

even if they still did it wouldn't be any different from what they were before. Marines with Combat tactics can still be pinned.


Plenty of people seem willing to give up the Auto-flee ability for Twin-linked flame and melta weapons. others give it up for Fleet.

giving it up for stubborn and scoring Sternguard seems like just another option. it might not be some people's cup of tea, but it can certaintly work with a list built to that strength. You need to build to the characters strength if you take Vulkan or Shrike too, why is Pedro all of a sudden different?

I am of the opinion that Sterngaurds are the best unit that Vanilla marines have to offer, so I would say that he is a distinctly good choice.

Edit: I'm an idiot I totally forgot that hold the line was part of his chapter tactics, nevermind, still good but don't take another hero for their chapter tactics.

Of course that cancels out Pedro's bonus to them and makes him pointless.

Kantor is a trap SC.

He is 175 chapter master with an imaginary force multiplier powers. He cant even fight in assault properly, and his gun is horrible.

While he is "cost efficient" as a chapter master, in the end he is just a chapter master (which is never competitive in the first place). Powerfist on a model with 3+/4+ that replaces Combat tactics with Stubborn? No thanks.

His main feature is a +1A attack bubble with 12" inch radius and scoring sternguards.

Ponder that for a moment:

Scoring sternguards? How many sternguards do you take anyway? Fielding 3 squads or sternguard means lacking points for other parts of the FOC, fielding just 1 is not good enough.

+1 attack bubble. Think of it, Ironclads or dreads with an extra attack is no big deal, let alone the fact that in order for kantor to give this +1A bubble means he has to be near 12" of something that is even remotely good at assault (something that C:SM doesn't shine at).

People argue that pedro works well with Hammernators, but they discount the fact that Sternguards + Hammernators + land raider = LOTS OF POINTS. Dont get me started with dreads. All these 3 that mesh well with kantor are all from ELITE slots.

Tac marines having 2 attacks? no big deal. Seasoned players know that this isn't significant, an extra powerfist attack is good, but that's it.

And then, there's the ultimate ball buster: Stubborn Chapter Tactics. If you think that stubborn is better than combat tactics, you prolly are not a C:SM player and should stop trolling.

Orrrr, just want to play a character and army style that we want to and not the uberific bestest OMFG!!!! most competitive army we can run.

Point is, STD, that we're talking about Pedro's use competitively. Obviously use him in a fluffy list, but the thread is about whether or not he can be used otherwise.

At Yuber: I contest the point that taking that many Sternguard draws away from the rest of the list. With all those Marines now scoring, you can take your minimum two troop choices as Scout Squads to hold the backfield, be cheap, and yet still in the end have 5 scoring choices.

You want Dreads to benefit from Pedro's abilities? Throw in a MotF and fill your heavy slots with Dreads. Also helps keeps those scouts alive with his ruin bolster.

Flesh out the rest of the list with useful FA slots such as Speeders or Bikes, and I think you have a solid list on your hands. Won't scale well to high points levels as you'll run out of FOC slots, but I think it will work around 2k.

Pvt. Jet wrote:Point is, STD, that we're talking about Pedro's use competitively. Obviously use him in a fluffy list, but the thread is about whether or not he can be used otherwise.

At Yuber: I contest the point that taking that many Sternguard draws away from the rest of the list. With all those Marines now scoring, you can take your minimum two troop choices as Scout Squads to hold the backfield, be cheap, and yet still in the end have 5 scoring choices.

You want Dreads to benefit from Pedro's abilities? Throw in a MotF and fill your heavy slots with Dreads. Also helps keeps those scouts alive with his ruin bolster.

Flesh out the rest of the list with useful FA slots such as Speeders or Bikes, and I think you have a solid list on your hands. Won't scale well to high points levels as you'll run out of FOC slots, but I think it will work around 2k.

And there you have it. Getting another 100 point HQ to put in dreads. So that about makes Kantor virtually cost around 275. Please dont tell me that the MOTF can just repair dreads as its main function.

And scoring sternguards are a bad idea. While you are correct that 5 scoring units are good. 3 of them being expensive at around 300 points is not. It's something that I can justify throwing a deathstar unit onto. And then there's the issue of very low model count.

And then there's the metagame of other killier troops that will yank away that sweep objective your sternguards are holding. Wracks, wyches, genestealers, BA ASMs, or even grey hunters anyone?

Well, the MotF isn't necessary. It is if you WANT Dreads in your army, but you certainly don't need them. Also, in this particular army, I think the MotF would be better served with one of your scoring scout units in cover with a Conversion Beamer.

With the scouts home, the expensive scoring units aren't so much of a problem. They'll either survive, or they won't. With a solidly held home objective, and scoring units with 3 base attacks and special ammo bolters in their home objective, your opponent will be a little busy, yes?

In a mono-Pedro build, flesh out you FA slots with Bikers, Assault Marines, VV. Things that will really benefit from the attack bubble. Your Heavy support can be some reliable long range support such as Preds, or maybe stuff like Vindicators.

And even if there are other killier troops out there.... if they're fighting off your Pedro beefed Sternguard, they aren't hitting your scouts.

So I suppose in conclusion Pedro CAN be good if the army is tooled to use his abilities to the maximum. However, I will certainly agree there are better SCs, and more efficient ones. But I think he can be competitive.

Pvt. Jet wrote:Well, the MotF isn't necessary. It is if you WANT Dreads in your army, but you certainly don't need them. Also, in this particular army, I think the MotF would be better served with one of your scoring scout units in cover with a Conversion Beamer.

With the scouts home, the expensive scoring units aren't so much of a problem. They'll either survive, or they won't. With a solidly held home objective, and scoring units with 3 base attacks and special ammo bolters in their home objective, your opponent will be a little busy, yes?

In a mono-Pedro build, flesh out you FA slots with Bikers, Assault Marines, VV. Things that will really benefit from the attack bubble. Your Heavy support can be some reliable long range support such as Preds, or maybe stuff like Vindicators.

And even if there are other killier troops out there.... if they're fighting off your Pedro beefed Sternguard, they aren't hitting your scouts.

So I suppose in conclusion Pedro CAN be good if the army is tooled to use his abilities to the maximum. However, I will certainly agree there are better SCs, and more efficient ones. But I think he can be competitive.

Not really, because a Kantor list filled with sternguards will not have proper counter assault units if you don't take dreads or hammernators. And a pedro beefed sternguard - is not a big deal. having 3 base attacks is not really impressive, while they will more probably win the assault it doesnt matter coz a sternguard that isnt shooting is a screwed sternguard. And we all know that it's the power weapon that counts in assault. You certainly didn't pay 300 points for a marine that has 3 base attacks.

Pedro alone can be good simply because of the +1A bubble. But only dreads and hammernators truly benefit from this, not sternguards. And even then giving hammernators or dreads an additional 1 attack is overkill.

DooDoo wrote:Stubborn is terrible for vanilla marines. It replaces one of their core abilities (combat tactics) and basically just ensures that they die in an assault.

Hahahahah, you are funny.

Stubborn becomes amazing when you got a sergeant with a power fist punching out everything nearby him until the enemy breaks. It becomes totally possible to kill assault units through attrition because of how often you do NOT run.

Stubborn on troops also helps them do their job: hold an objective! If I can keep another troops squad tied up in combat and keep that objective contested, then I get a draw or a win, rather than a loss.

Some people prefer combat tactics ... I hate it ... I sacrifice troops as needed to the grinder

Brother-Thunder wrote:

DooDoo wrote:Stubborn is terrible for vanilla marines. It replaces one of their core abilities (combat tactics) and basically just ensures that they die in an assault.

Hahahahah, you are funny.

Stubborn becomes amazing when you got a sergeant with a power fist punching out everything nearby him until the enemy breaks. It becomes totally possible to kill assault units through attrition because of how often you do NOT run.

Stubborn on troops also helps them do their job: hold an objective! If I can keep another troops squad tied up in combat and keep that objective contested, then I get a draw or a win, rather than a loss.

Powerfist Sergeants are terrible.

Brother-Thunder wrote:

DooDoo wrote:Stubborn is terrible for vanilla marines. It replaces one of their core abilities (combat tactics) and basically just ensures that they die in an assault.

Hahahahah, you are funny.

Stubborn becomes amazing when you got a sergeant with a power fist punching out everything nearby him until the enemy breaks. It becomes totally possible to kill assault units through attrition because of how often you do NOT run.

Stubborn on troops also helps them do their job: hold an objective! If I can keep another troops squad tied up in combat and keep that objective contested, then I get a draw or a win, rather than a loss.

I'm quite curious as what you are punching til it breaks. Because getting stuck in combat with genestealers, wyches or other SLIGHTLY better CC units is not a good idea.

Yuber wrote:
Not really, because a Kantor list filled with sternguards will not have proper counter assault units if you don't take dreads or hammernators. And a pedro beefed sternguard - is not a big deal. having 3 base attacks is not really impressive, while they will more probably win the assault it doesnt matter coz a sternguard that isnt shooting is a screwed sternguard. And we all know that it's the power weapon that counts in assault. You certainly didn't pay 300 points for a marine that has 3 base attacks.

Pedro alone can be good simply because of the +1A bubble. But only dreads and hammernators truly benefit from this, not sternguards. And even then giving hammernators or dreads an additional 1 attack is overkill.

What about Assault Marines? Jumping up under cover of Turn 1 pods, they can get an easy turn two charge, and with Pedro's bonus are essentially Vanguard Veteran's. Four Attacks on the charge is nothing to sneeze at. Especially not 4 PFist attacks. Might make Assault Marines legitimate assault units.

Also, to be fair, in a list like this you could easily toss a Power Weapon or Power Fist on Sternguard Sergeants, fully expecting them to end up in assault. What's 15-25 more points on an already 300 points squad?

He's awesome in my opinion. Stick him with 10 Sternguard with a heavy flamer or two, and you've got 4(!) attacks per model on the charge from a stubborn, LD10 unit! Just put 'em in a drop pod and..

You've got a powerful anti-infantry/monster ranged unit and can decimate pretty much anything in an assault AND can deep strike. To top it off, they're a scoring unit.


As for Pedro's power armor, I won't argue the finer points of fluff right now, but I will say that the trick is keeping him alive. He makes any units nearby a strong assault force or a hard defensive force.

One sterngaurd unit is not enough to include pedro..because then there are better characters. If you pick 2 or 3 units sterngaurd you will get a droppod army and you need that combat tactics! You need to get out of close combat and shoot (again) with your sterngaurd. I prefer a Librarian with nullzone and teleport instead of pedro.. If I want more scoring units then I will combatsquad my marines...

4 attacks on the charge sounds like loads, for a Space Marine player... till you compare it to a 6-point Ork Slugga Boy who also gets 4 x Str 4 non-power-weapon attacks on the charge. Pedro is a *lot* of points. I'm not convinced he's ever really worth it.

Pvt. Jet wrote:

Yuber wrote:
Not really, because a Kantor list filled with sternguards will not have proper counter assault units if you don't take dreads or hammernators. And a pedro beefed sternguard - is not a big deal. having 3 base attacks is not really impressive, while they will more probably win the assault it doesnt matter coz a sternguard that isnt shooting is a screwed sternguard. And we all know that it's the power weapon that counts in assault. You certainly didn't pay 300 points for a marine that has 3 base attacks.

Pedro alone can be good simply because of the +1A bubble. But only dreads and hammernators truly benefit from this, not sternguards. And even then giving hammernators or dreads an additional 1 attack is overkill.

What about Assault Marines? Jumping up under cover of Turn 1 pods, they can get an easy turn two charge, and with Pedro's bonus are essentially Vanguard Veteran's. Four Attacks on the charge is nothing to sneeze at. Especially not 4 PFist attacks. Might make Assault Marines legitimate assault units.

Also, to be fair, in a list like this you could easily toss a Power Weapon or Power Fist on Sternguard Sergeants, fully expecting them to end up in assault. What's 15-25 more points on an already 300 points squad?

That's the conundrum. They aren't supposed to be in assault, at all. Winning assault or not is immaterial to my argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ian Sturrock wrote:4 attacks on the charge sounds like loads, for a Space Marine player... till you compare it to a 6-point Ork Slugga Boy who also gets 4 x Str 4 non-power-weapon attacks on the charge. Pedro is a *lot* of points. I'm not convinced he's ever really worth it.

4 attacks implies that you are charging something which is bad when you're better off shooting with your sternguards.


In retrospect, they gave the sternguards 2 base attacks then 1 bonus from pedro kantor so that you wont feel that bad if they do get assaulted

MagicJuggler wrote:
Powerfist Sergeants are terrible.

I am sorry, but this is the worst statement i have ever heard.


the Hidden Powerfist is the bane of MCs, ICs, and Walkers everywhere.

there are situations where the points are better spent, but a PF sergeant is far from terrible.

Most walkers should not be in close combat. Of those that should, the odds of killing it before your squad gets wiped, are low enough to he nonexistent. For the cost of a Fist, one could buy 2/4 Combi-weapons. For slightly under the cost of 2 Fists, one can upgrade a Rhino to an upgunned Razorback! Either investment does better for hunting hard targets.

MCs and ICs can more readily avoid a fist by superior assault movement and having lesser minions get in B2B with the fistguy. Your assault range is 14" at best. Any serious assault unit outranges this.

The only Marine Sergeants that should take fists are Blood Angel Assault Marines. Regular Marines should only give Fists to Bike Command Squads, as beyond those, and Assault Terminators, they're mediocre at best in assault.

I am amused at the "should not be in combat" statements.

Like a Tactical squad holding an objective can just say "hey Demon Prince, we shouldn't be in combat so don't assault us mmkay? Our Sarge forgot to take a power fist so we could maybe deal with you." Sometimes gak just ends up in combat, it cannot be avoided.

Damn, my Khorne army would love to play an army with no power fist Sergeants.

Very well. *Breaks out the Razorspam.* You get your wish.

P-fists make tac squads flexible and reassures my feeling of meltaguns

Power Fists give the illusion of flexibility. Taken en-masse, they are a point-sink, and in most cases you will win or lose a melee regardless of the Fist. Compound this with the limited squad size of a Tacsquad, as well as the fact that a Space Marine Sergeant has only one wound, and depending on the opponent (like the aforementioned Khorne Berserkers, but units like Ork Shootaboyz, or Devourer-equipped Termagants also do a similar job; again, these scenarios are all assuming demeched Marines), there's a fair chance that the Fist Sergeant can die before he even gets a chance to swing! He doesn't get the Furious Charge/extra attack of a Nob, the larger body of Boyz to hide behind, or the 2nd wound to make it harder to snipe him out of his unit.

For the cost involved, spending on more vehicles will help you avoid assaults, and keep shooting, which Marines do better than assault.

Eh, you work with what you've got. Besides, it all depends on the competetivity and competance of the players involved. And how the dice fall, of course.

But then, that's what the whole game is about: trying to get favourable dice rolls.

Aye, and a 452.38 square inch +1 attack bubble definitly helps in increasing the chance of favorable dice.

Well, I think that he is ok character if you want to make stein army... In fact, in that case, he is a must... But if you don't plan taking steins, then I'd avoid him as there are better characters that will use pts better...

It's same for every special character in marine dex... They are expensive, and if you wanna field them, you have to make an army that will benefit from their special rules... Otherwise, you'll always have better places to spend pts...

The 2 glaring weaknesses in Mr.Kantor are as follows. The one everyone mentioned a 3+ 4+ is not that great for survivability. The second that I did not see, is a lack of eternal warrior, making him a target very quickly for str 8 anything or force weapons.

Well to draw a line under this Thread that I started, I will be using Pedro Kantor but only in those 3000pt+ APOC Armies. I will give him an Honour Guard with Relic Blades and use him on the Charge for the bonus, (like a kinda of Uber Chaplain) however I don't think he is that bad. He will give a few nasty surprises to those unwary players, Sternguard scoring, the extra attacks with lightening claws to Thunderhammers.

On the subject of Attacks, remember a Scout squad with Dual CC weapons on the charge gets 3 attacks each! Ok the WS and Str is different but the point remains that you cannot simply say Greater Number of Attacks = Better Unit!