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Has an awesome pub as well you know!

I think Mr Mystery's post actually serves to highlight the largest shortcoming of GW, and serves as a useful contrast;

Mr Mystery wrote:Let's see...

1) I could go upstairs, right now and grab one of my armies, then walk the 5 minutes to my local GW Store (yeah, I'm lucky in that respect) and know with relative certainty I'll be able to get a game of whatever I've brought (hell, thanks to the combined efforts of the Manager and I, this now extends to War Of The Ring).

2) I know that if I buy something from GW, it's up to the task. Paint, brushes, glue, tools, brushes. Are they the best quality? I dunno, but suffice to say the quality is good enough that I've not had to look elsewhere. Make of that what you will.

3) They have a range of novels which reflect various styles of background. Currently enjoying the latest Ciaphas Cain novel. Love those ones!

4) I actually feel support by the company as a Hobbyist. I can walk into any store, and get advice on a project. I know I am welcome in their stores, and can chat to their staff about hobby related goodness.

5) Within their own stores, you don't really find a clique of gamers who demand things be done their way. Sure there are people seemingly always in there, but to find it being run 'by the vets' is increasingly rare.

So yeah, all things that other Wargames Manufacturers do not, or in many cases, cannot offer due to a lack of their own stores. As a comparisson, I spent quite a lot of money this year on GW products, and am happy to do so because I enjoy the hobby, and I know beyond shadow of a doubt I will get my monies worth out of them, due to the large community in my area. Other games however are more of a risk, as whilst I'm happy to spend whatever on my army, I'm not too keen on procuring and painting a new range, just to find others don't take to it and I wind up out of partners, or worse, a limited range of gamers to play against.

Of his 5 points, 3 are directly related to the GW retail stores (and their convenient proximity). Now, when I lived in Manhattan, near GW's 8th street store, I might have held the same opinion, but having since moved away, I've realized that, while I no longer benefit from the variety of services offered at their retail stores, I still pay for them. We all pay for them, in the form of a increased prices at all levels for all products.

This is related to point 2 of course: brushes, tools, glue, all of these things are priced higher then comparable alternatives to support the GW retail edifice.

Paint and brushes that comes with an instructor in how to paint, kits that come with a playing space and help understanding how to put them together are, of course, worth more then those same paints, brushes and kits on their own: but they go for the same price in the retail store or your FLGS or Online (theoretically).

Thus, (one of) GW's greatest strengths is also its greatest weaknesses: the retail outlets allow for a community to be formed, for people new to the table-top hobby to be brought in with relative ease, and creates in those people an impression that GW is the hobby. At the same time, the overhead on these retail outlets affects the bottom line of the company, and the costs must be made up through increased prices at all levels*.

* There is, of course, supposition here, since I do not have access to the minutia of financial breakdown in order to state all this without reservation. It's based on the simple (perhaps too simple) notion that if GW's prices are higher then it's competitors, that the point of difference in costs is what explains the difference in price. All such companies have 3 costs; 1) design, 2) manufacture, 3) distribution to which GW adds a 4th) retail overhead (staff, rent, utilities and so on). Is it possible that GW's retail outlets are self-sufficient? Possible certainly, but in a way that would almost be worse: their retail outlets do provide a great deal of service and are certainly vital to nurturing and bringing people into the TTG hobby, so in a way one can almost rationalize paying more on a per model basis for that. If the retail outlets are paying for themselves, then GW is charging more just because they feel they can.

The price you pay in any store is part and parcel of keeping them open, regardless of who runs it.

As for the financial impact, GW is a profitable company, so the stores are clearly doing their job. Yet other companies charge similar amounts, with no chance of anything like the convenience and benefit of having a store just round the corner. What's their excuse?

HI all.
In comparison to NOTHING or GW , GW is not that bad .
(And as many have NOTHING to compare GW to thats why they choose GW)

Compared to other companies products GW just isnt good enough value for money for me.
But I dont NEED to play in a GW store.(I have multiple alternative locations...)

So I dont buy into the limited 'GW hobby' tm.
But I am happily involved in the wider table top minatures games hobby.

TTFN

Word

Lanrak, has it ever crossed your mind that some have indeed tried other games, and preferred GW games?

Buzzsaw wrote:* There is, of course, supposition here, since I do not have access to the minutia of financial breakdown in order to state all this without reservation. It's based on the simple (perhaps too simple) notion that if GW's prices are higher then it's competitors, that the point of difference in costs is what explains the difference in price.

That's only true if the GW stores are significantly less efficient than independent stores. When you buy at an indy store you're still paying for the store.

I usually dont have a problem with the staff. I actually sold one of the staff members my old sisters for some guard. She was very nice about it.

Its the old patron though. The guys who play blood bowl, 40k fantasy. They are the mean ones.

Happygrunt wrote:
Its the old patron though. The guys who play blood bowl, 40k fantasy. They are the mean ones.

Funny. That's like a quarter of the people here.

My local shop in Canterbury has always had good staff, contary to many peoples pushy sales persons experiences i have had an experience quite opposite to that. i walked in to buy some of the latest flavour of the month army stuff and was talked OUT of buying it and into consolidating my current army. i think that sort of service should be expected by people and if it is not supplied then the sales tactics are wrong

I like them. Nice quality paints. Excellent brushes. Beautiful models. They're great. GW is as close to perfect as I could imagine....Except for that whole price thing. I really wish they'd just make everything a bit cheaper.
My dream GW-
Paint pots- $1.99
Metal singles- $4.99
Set of ten plastics- $20.00
Transports- $15.00
Tanks- $20.00
Big stuff- $30.00

I've been told things were this cheap not too long ago. Something about two rhinos for 15 bucks or something like that. Man, what I wouldn't give to have played 20 years ago. I could have bought Chaos- Squats and sold them on ebay for 45$

They're very nice. I've never gone to an official GW store- the closest one for me is Chicago, I believe- but their email and phone customer service is top-notch. The community is nice, and the game is fun. I don't play tournaments, so I don't have very many problems with the rules. There are some that make you scratch your head and say "Wait, their ride blows up with them inside, and they are hardly scratched?", but it is easy to logic out why they'd do it.

Well, if you are discussing GW stores, then I can't really comment. There aren't any here, and I can't say that I would give them my patronage if they were as it seems most of what they have offer over the LFGSs holds no value to me.

If you are discussing the company as a whole, the only things I can offer in their favor are that I love the fluff, I feel that they produce excellent quality in their models, and that if there is a problem with a model kit, they take care of it quickly and with far less burden to the purchaser than most companies. I'll leave out all the negative stuff as it is not the point of the thread, and considering it's still the main game system I play, the positives are pretty strong for me.

Considering all they do for my FLGS (which does everything, Card games, LAN parties, board games and war games), they take care of prizes for Tourneys, even send in "Black Box" goodies that are early releases, use our store as a location for sectionals for 'Ard Boyz and pretty much help that sotre stay afloat, I appreciate everything they do. Am I thrilled about the prices (A single Ogryn is $20!! Are they high?!)? Hell no. Will I continue to purchase products from them? An emphatic yes!

A single ogryn is 20$. but how many are you taking? 5?

Episode 50 of World's End Radio did a whole 2+ hour show about the good/bad of GW. Range of discussion included plastic kits, pricing, retail stores and staff etc etc. Was pretty informative as two of the dudes hosting the podcast used to work for GW in Australia, so it was a unique perspective(for me at least). I believe the verdict from the hosts was "GW isn't so bad"(paraphrasing and stealing from thread title). It was good listening as they brought up great points on the good and bad.

Great podcast.

Hi, Mr Mystery.
I LIKE some GW games alot. (Blood Bowl, is brilliant IMO.)
And I am aware that GW write the rules of 40k and WHFB to appeal to a specific demoghraphic.
So those that fall into GW specific demoghraphic WILL prefer thier core games to others ...

However, those gamers who want well defined elegant rules,that allow balanced tactical gameplay , and collectors who want good value for money .
Do NOT fall into this demoghraphic.

I did say MANY not ALL.
And MANY GW customers are indoctrinated into the GW Hobby (tm) in GW stores , and ARE isolated from the wider table top wargames hobby.

IF GW was as good as they would have you belive.They would be able to compete in the open market.
They wouldnt need to operate the chain of B&M stores to isolate thier customers from better value for money alternatives would they?

And the cost of runnning the B &M stores makes up over 50 % of thier overheads.
So for people making full use of the GW stores the incresed mark up may be seen to be fair.
But why should customers NOT using the GW stores have to pay 2 times as much for stuff?

The free brainwashing, er, I mean free painting, free Game, free minature, free hobby advice.
Is NOT free. Everyone is paying a premium for those people who use GW B&M stores.

And as far as sending out free replacements for defective items.
Its CHEAPER than instigating beter quality control.

Remember the cost of the item to GW , is a TINY FRACTION of the retail price.(Usualy less than 1/6).

GW does a very good job of recruiting new long term wargamers -collectors who then move on to better value for money alternatives.
They sort out the wheat from the chaff.
And then let the wheat move on to other companies....

This is why GW is not so bad.
It recruits gamers for all the other companies out there , god bless 'em!
And GW customer pay for this, god bless you too!

Merry Christmas and Happy new year.

Lanrak wrote:

GW does a very good job of recruiting new long term wargamers -collectors who then move on to better value for money alternatives.
They sort out the wheat from the chaff.
And then let the wheat move on to other companies....

This is why GW is not so bad.
It recruits gamers for all the other companies out there , god bless 'em!
And GW customer pay for this, god bless you too!

Merry Christmas and Happy new year.

Merry Christmas to you too!

This actually reminds me of a quote from a FLGS owner I knew in the Seattle area: "GW is good at two things; Getting people into the hobby, and ticking people off!"

As I read through the thread, I can't help but notice a lot of the negative feeling toward the company is a result of bad experiences in their stores, and to a lesser extent the high prices. I think that what we are seeing is that the quality of the staff at GW stores can be very hit or miss, and that our individual personalities can have a major impact on how we perceive GW sales tactics (and NO, just because you find their tactics offensive doesn't make you "stunted" ). My feeling is that the GW stores can be a really good thing, as they increase the exposure people have to the hobby and provide a nurturing environment for new hobbyists. The prices are what they are; they are high, and prevent me from buying as much as I would like, but not high enough to prevent me from buying at all. That these prices are being used to finance their retail stores is not a huge deal for me, as I think those stores go a long way towards establishing the community everyone has talked about.

I think that, overall, GW is a "good" company, in the sense that they provide me with things I value (a fun game, cool models, a community to play with, interesting background, etc).

The models for the most part keep getting better and better.

I was putting together the Plauge Furnace on Christmas Day, and its a wonderful model, brilliantly designed.

Things like the Skaven pulling the Furnace itself, are perfectly cut to come together with the ropes. In what at first glance on the sprue seems some frankly bizarre cutting decesions for the model.

Makes me wonder what we are going to get in the future, the next chariot for example to get the plastic treatment should be interesting. Will they finally have the means to include the reigns to the steeds/creatures pulling it?

Well I think GW has been doing the best they can. Sure the models have become really expensive(three metal IG 8 dollars, today 3 metal IG 15, thats almost double?!) but thats life, everything else in general is getting more expensive too. That being said,I will say that their customer support and website have come along way and are both really good. When I first started 13yrs ago they had very little customer support and there website was pretty bare bones, very little hobby support lol. The models have come a long way too. The new plastic kits and better detailing and scaling make for some really cool models. The better models with better hobby support have made 40k a lot more accessible I think. Best example of this is how the my local gaming community has changed, went from bunch of old guys with ponytails and myself(12yr kid/dork) playing with stubby little 80's/90's models in small obscure comic stores, flash forward to present day community, players of various ages and back grounds, good looking models, hobby specific stores. GW needs to keep on doing what there doing. Maybe one day we'll see the 3 IG for 8 again

Lanrak wrote:However, those gamers who want well defined elegant rules,that allow balanced tactical gameplay , and collectors who want good value for money .
Do NOT fall into this demoghraphic.

In what way do you feel the need to insult people that like GW games or products? If you don't like them, that's fine. But please don't belittle anyone else because of their choice of games.

Indeed.

I think most of their employees are ace however their random price increases that are not in line with inflation, or follow an increase in production quality are outrageous. I also hate the shift of focus from adults to kids. I hate any other kids other than my own and my nephew!

Captain Solon wrote:A single ogryn is 20$. but how many are you taking? 5?

I was considering, but that's a bit too much for me.

Ed_Bodger wrote:I think most of their employees are ace however their random price increases that are not in line with inflation, or follow an increase in production quality are outrageous. I also hate the shift of focus from adults to kids. I hate any other kids other than my own and my nephew!

There's more to price rises than mere inflation. Minimum Wage goes up, rents go up, insurance (generally) goes up, staffing levels go up, cost of raw materials go up (and sometimes down) and so on. Inflation is a prediction as far as I understand it!

No I disagree having studied GW's financial figures as part of my masters they are trying to cut costs in every area of their organisation. Their price increases have nothing to do with reaction to cost increases and everything to do with trying to sell their product at the highest price the market will stomach.

Klawz wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:
Its the old patron though. The guys who play blood bowl, 40k fantasy. They are the mean ones.

Funny. That's like a quarter of the people here.

Its not that they play those games, its that they played them for longer, and think they are better then the rest of us. Just because they can recall 2 editions back, when most of my friends started at the end of 4th, dosen't make anyone better then anyone else. That, and they are the super tournament nuts who are no fun to play against.

Ed_Bodger wrote:No I disagree having studied GW's financial figures as part of my masters they are trying to cut costs in every area of their organisation. Their price increases have nothing to do with reaction to cost increases and everything to do with trying to sell their product at the highest price the market will stomach.

Which is different from pretty any other company ever conceived how?

Mr Mystery wrote:The price you pay in any store is part and parcel of keeping them open, regardless of who runs it.

As for the financial impact, GW is a profitable company, so the stores are clearly doing their job. Yet other companies charge similar amounts, with no chance of anything like the convenience and benefit of having a store just round the corner. What's their excuse?

Your premise is flawed: while there are no doubt competitors that do not offer superior value, I am referring to competitors that provide superior value for money spent. Put another way, competitors that provide comparable product for cheaper prices.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:* There is, of course, supposition here, since I do not have access to the minutia of financial breakdown in order to state all this without reservation. It's based on the simple (perhaps too simple) notion that if GW's prices are higher then it's competitors, that the point of difference in costs is what explains the difference in price.

That's only true if the GW stores are significantly less efficient than independent stores. When you buy at an indy store you're still paying for the store.

As I pointed out in the paragraph following that statement, on the off chance that GW's retail outlets are self-sufficient, it makes their pricing even more egregious. Beyond that, I would argue it's very difficult to imagine that GW's retail outlets are individually self-sufficient; they labor under a number of problems that an independent retail store simply does not. They have absolute restraints on the products they can sell (how many gaming stores are able to turn a small amount of counter space into a valuable sales spot for highly profitable food and drink, or CCGs, or other products that GW stores simply cannot sell?), they have to devote no small amount of their floor space to non-retail use and, to my knowledge, they do not have individual flexibility on their hours of operation.

A number of people seem to have misconstrued my point, or have brought up what is a counter-point: that GW is not so bad, because for one thing they do X, where X is going some extra mile, above and beyond. Owing to the fact that they do X, the fact their prices are quite high can be forgiven.

To which I propose: what if instead of doing X, GW just lowered their prices? You see, the problem with saying their prices can be forgiven because they go the extra mile in a) their stores or b) select other retail outlets, is that people that buy their products through c) not-so-favored retail outlets or d) on-line retailers, are paying a premium price, but not getting the same premium service.

Perhaps my local store is simply unlucky with their GW rep, perhaps I am the type of person that simply doesn't care about frills, and just focuses on the bottom line: the prices on their product are too high, in my way of estimation.

Mr Mystery wrote:

Ed_Bodger wrote:No I disagree having studied GW's financial figures as part of my masters they are trying to cut costs in every area of their organisation. Their price increases have nothing to do with reaction to cost increases and everything to do with trying to sell their product at the highest price the market will stomach.

Which is different from pretty any other company ever conceived how?

Not to be pedantic, but you do realize that the rationalization "everyone else is doing it" even if true (and I disagree that it is true), wouldn't make it laudable, right?

*Some people have also brought up the quality of their rules, to which I will only remark that they are doing much better. Whether their efforts are actually adequate, is an entirely different matter. Once again, this is an area where they have far to go to be the equal of some of their competitors.

Buzzsaw wrote:As I pointed out in the paragraph following that statement, on the off chance that GW's retail outlets are self-sufficient, it makes their pricing even more egregious. Beyond that, I would argue it's very difficult to imagine that GW's retail outlets are individually self-sufficient; they labor under a number of problems that an independent retail store simply does not. They have absolute restraints on the products they can sell (how many gaming stores are able to turn a small amount of counter space into a valuable sales spot for highly profitable food and drink, or CCGs, or other products that GW stores simply cannot sell?), they have to devote no small amount of their floor space to non-retail use and, to my knowledge, they do not have individual flexibility on their hours of operation.

Good analysis.

I would add that the prices may be a contributing factor in other problems the company has. Because prices are high, the models do not "sell themselves" as it were. So they have to put pressure on their store employees to push the models hard in order to make up the difference. Now some store employees can do this without creating an obnoxious environment. But as we've seen, many can't. And really, while a bit better training from GW may be in order, we shouldn't expect people to be able to push product hard while simultaneously making the experience fun for customers. They're two completely different social skills, in some ways at odds with each other. I know this from my own experience.

So taking the prices down a bit would ease some of the pressure on selling individual models. Yes, the store staff have to sell more stuff to make up the difference, but if selling more is easier, that shouldn't be a problem, especially if the staff are then freed to make the products fun for everyone.