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I really love how so many experts here could do a better job at running a company than those running the market leader in its sector. You may not like the company, but it is obviously not bad at what it does.

Happygrunt wrote:That, and they are the super tournament nuts who are no fun to play against.

Some of my best games have been against vets.

usually, however, 'vets' keep to themselves and don't let anyone else play them. it makes it increasingly difficult to get games against experienced players.

However, usually they're helpful, and I respect them. really I've only ever had two or three primadonna vets. though, PWFF (play-to-win-and-forget-the-fun-aspect) tournament players deserve to have 'TFG' written on their forhead in indellable ink

JOHIRA wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:As I pointed out in the paragraph following that statement, on the off chance that GW's retail outlets are self-sufficient, it makes their pricing even more egregious. Beyond that, I would argue it's very difficult to imagine that GW's retail outlets are individually self-sufficient; they labor under a number of problems that an independent retail store simply does not. They have absolute restraints on the products they can sell (how many gaming stores are able to turn a small amount of counter space into a valuable sales spot for highly profitable food and drink, or CCGs, or other products that GW stores simply cannot sell?), they have to devote no small amount of their floor space to non-retail use and, to my knowledge, they do not have individual flexibility on their hours of operation.

Good analysis.

I would add that the prices may be a contributing factor in other problems the company has. Because prices are high, the models do not "sell themselves" as it were. So they have to put pressure on their store employees to push the models hard in order to make up the difference. Now some store employees can do this without creating an obnoxious environment. But as we've seen, many can't. And really, while a bit better training from GW may be in order, we shouldn't expect people to be able to push product hard while simultaneously making the experience fun for customers. They're two completely different social skills, in some ways at odds with each other. I know this from my own experience.

So taking the prices down a bit would ease some of the pressure on selling individual models. Yes, the store staff have to sell more stuff to make up the difference, but if selling more is easier, that shouldn't be a problem, especially if the staff are then freed to make the products fun for everyone.

And now you show your lack of knowledge of working in a GW store. You see, the models do indeed 'sell themselves'. It's a simple premise. There are two reasons a person is in a GW Store. 1. To buy something (kerching) 2. To find out what it is about (kerching). The role of the staff member is to engage with the customer, and figure out what it is they fancy purchasing today. To give you an example, I've managed to turn a £5 sale into a £150 sale more than once, all without pressure. Combination of talking to the kid about 'what he would need' and talking to the parent about 'what this will do for him'.

As for GW stores being more limited than a single FLGS etc... I fail to see how being part of a chain is a bad thing? Barring the odd exception, chain stores very much dominate the world. Why? Because of a plateau of quality and service. GW's have far less fluctuation in these than FLGS. Some FLGS are truly amazing, but others, well there's a reason they don't tend to last long in too many cases.

[quote=Buzzsaw}Not to be pedantic, but you do realize that the rationalization "everyone else is doing it" even if true (and I disagree that it is true), wouldn't make it laudable, right?

Ah Mr Mystery I see where your fervent stance on Games Workshop being awesome comes from: you work for them.

Fantastic, I've just finished writing a 12,000 word paper on why Games Workshop fail to deliver customer value so lets do a little bit of summarising of it and try and relate it to your point of it being good business sense to sell a product at the top level the market will stomach. This is a good policy for increasing short term profits as is Games Workshops preference for targeting children and selling them a starter set we have all seen that good old sales technique get the parent to buy the starter box set lets say AOBR oh but they need a painting starter set and a couple of extra brushes, what's that little snotty wants to paint his space marines an attractive green colour well you will need these extra paints, oh and don't forget to play the game properly, get some good tips on painting and what to collect you need C:SM - we are now on around the £120 mark when all the parent really wanted was to buy the £23 tactical squad and get the hell out of the shop but credit to you 9insert generic GW employee) you have done a good sales job. I imagine during all this patter you have pointed out how much money the customer has saved by buying the starter box/battalion box over buying the models individually. So your customers have left the hobby store with little snotty creaming his pants over his new models and mr/mrs snotty quite pleased that despite spending over £100 they have got a good deal and are now one up over GW because they have saved money (idiots). At this stage we have short term satisfied customer.

Fast forward a bit and that same customer goes to expand their army by adding some individual box sets and now the parent realises exactly how expensive the individual box sets/ paints etc are and unfortunately the ugly little apple of their eye is hooked on this great new hobby and lets give GW employees some credit here - they now have a safe environment to dump the kid for a few hours while they go shopping or create another little snotling etc. You are now in a position where the customer is not feeling too happy as they realise that the high price of the individual models is going to cost them quite a lot more money than they saved in the long term...

Meanwhile once again GW shareholders are telling Tom Kirby and co that they need to cut costs once again as the overheads are unacceptable (please see 2010 GW Chairmans report for confirmation) so once again they cut costs, the plastic supplier is changed to someone who can supply it a bit cheaper, a couple more staff are let go and designers are encouraged to maximise options per spruce to encourage minimal wastage. However Tom has a great idea, lets raise prices again because our 'followers' (quote ibid) will pay pretty much whatever we ask. There is no consideration of the current global recession and the fact that people are trying to cut their costs of living in all areas and certainly in the hobby/luxury goods area (just look at the latest retail figures for Western Europe and North America). So now we are in a situation where veteran gamers, many of whom are married are now faced with increase prices which raises tension with their spouses - not a situation you want your loyal fanbase to be in they are going to buy less. Meanwhile the nice family snot who we began with earlier have come to the realisation that the hobby is just too expensive and suddenly that Xbox 360 with Kineckt looks a hell of lot cheaper and more long masting (after all little snotty is not good at following the rules and painting is just too much trouble). So GW now look for the next customer to start the hobby with. However GW do no external marketing and rely solely on word of mouth or people walking past hobby centres (which due to cost cutting in leasing are no longer located in prime positions) but little snotty is telling people at school that GW is not as good as Xbox and mr and mrs snotty are telling other parents how expensive GW is so the whole word of mouth advertising is going tits up and there is no GW propaganda to stop it.

Winding this down GW are IMO at a tipping point in their approach to business, with little growth in our economy peoples disposable income is on the decline rather than increasing yet still GW increase prices (out of line with inflation) they do pretty much no market research, there are no special offers, no discount on volume and very little communication to customers over anything other than prices or to be released models. This is not good business sense and again in my opinion unless they modify their strategy their long term growth will be massively affected. GW prides itself on being a company that relies on steady growth and as some will no have cleared all their outstanding long term debt and only use a small overdraft facility, however their business is supplying people hobby; their customers want to be loyal but given enough pressure this will cease. Ultimately people will change the supplier of their hobby before the hobby itself.

Well, I was reading it, then you dropped all reason for baseless opinion, showing a rather odd amount of research.

Also, for what it's worth...worked for them. Past tense. Not that it's important by there you go.

How to get someone involved it the hobby, the way I used to do it...

Step 1. Spot new face, approach and make them welcome.

Step 2. Explain a bit about the overall theme of the hobby.

Step 3. Ask if they fancy trying their hand at painting.

Step 4. Model painted (basic level, lesson should take no more than 5 minutes) it's time for a quick intro game. Keep it cinematic now!

Step 5. Game finished, ask if they enjoyed that.

Step 6. Explain what they need to get into the hobby. Introduce bundle set (HSS, Spray and Boxed Game).

At no point do you try to hide the extent of the hobby. This is about getting people into it eyes wide open, not hiding things. So your initial supposition appears inaccurate already, which might I suggest would bring the rest of your paper into dispute. You explain what a Codex is, but point out that the contents of Black Reach etc are enough for now, until you've found out where your tactical fancy lies.

And do you know what? It works. And it works well. Oh the times I'd read online about 2 or 3 people sticking it to the man by 'quitting the hobby' when that very day I'd sold 4 Core Game bundles. Seriously...hard to keep a straight face.

But now on to the rest of your post...

Again, massive massive assumption. ANd not too keen on your description of younger gamers as 'snotty'. The lack of marketing and GW's success speaks volumes. It's all about word of mouth. Get on kid into it, and get him to bring his friends. If you invite them, they will come. BOOM, new mini-hobby community. And as for the recession...so what? Hobbies traditionally do quite well in a recession. Last big one in the UK saw GW do as they are doing now (minus the cost cutting of course) and continuing to expand. Fundamental truth is, if I have less dispoable a month for whatever reason, I want greater value for money from my purchases. And to me at least that very much includes GW. I manage a game at least twice a week, so I do get my monies worth. Others have a different opinion sure, but that doesn't invalidate mine.

If you wouldn't mind, I'd quite like to read this paper you wrote, as I suspect the wording would be rather less emotive. And I'd like to see the research you did as it seems to fly in the face of my experience both as a (former) staff member, and as a long term hobbyist.

You would be very welcome to read it and yes it is written very differently to how I post on the internet. It was based upon a survey of over 1,000 customers from various locations around the UK and interviews with current staff at all levels within GW, plus a little bit of internet research for some international perspectives.

Also I was not talking about hiding the extent of the hobby it is the realisation of the cost of the hobby that causes a shock and leads to a discontinuation of the hobby especially amongst parents.

Mr Mystery wrote:And now you show your lack of knowledge of working in a GW store. You see, the models do indeed 'sell themselves'. It's a simple premise. There are two reasons a person is in a GW Store. 1. To buy something (kerching) 2. To find out what it is about (kerching). The role of the staff member is to engage with the customer, and figure out what it is they fancy purchasing today. To give you an example, I've managed to turn a £5 sale into a £150 sale more than once, all without pressure. Combination of talking to the kid about 'what he would need' and talking to the parent about 'what this will do for him'.

That's all well and good, and I'm happy you were good at your job. But it doesn't have anything at all to do with what I said. If the models truly sold themselves, GW employees would not need to engage the customer. The models would do the job themselves and all you would have to do is stand by the register and wait for the customer to bring up their blister/box.

If you have to engage the customer, the models aren't selling themselves. And while you may have been able to upsell someone £145 once, not every customer is prepared to drop that much in one go. Especially not if the store employee is badgering them about purchases irrelevant to that player's interests, as often happens at GW stores.

Mr Mystery wrote:

JOHIRA wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:As I pointed out in the paragraph following that statement, on the off chance that GW's retail outlets are self-sufficient, it makes their pricing even more egregious. Beyond that, I would argue it's very difficult to imagine that GW's retail outlets are individually self-sufficient; they labor under a number of problems that an independent retail store simply does not. They have absolute restraints on the products they can sell (how many gaming stores are able to turn a small amount of counter space into a valuable sales spot for highly profitable food and drink, or CCGs, or other products that GW stores simply cannot sell?), they have to devote no small amount of their floor space to non-retail use and, to my knowledge, they do not have individual flexibility on their hours of operation.

Good analysis.

I would add that the prices may be a contributing factor in other problems the company has. Because prices are high, the models do not "sell themselves" as it were. So they have to put pressure on their store employees to push the models hard in order to make up the difference. Now some store employees can do this without creating an obnoxious environment. But as we've seen, many can't. And really, while a bit better training from GW may be in order, we shouldn't expect people to be able to push product hard while simultaneously making the experience fun for customers. They're two completely different social skills, in some ways at odds with each other. I know this from my own experience.

So taking the prices down a bit would ease some of the pressure on selling individual models. Yes, the store staff have to sell more stuff to make up the difference, but if selling more is easier, that shouldn't be a problem, especially if the staff are then freed to make the products fun for everyone.

And now you show your lack of knowledge of working in a GW store. You see, the models do indeed 'sell themselves'. It's a simple premise. There are two reasons a person is in a GW Store. 1. To buy something (kerching) 2. To find out what it is about (kerching). The role of the staff member is to engage with the customer, and figure out what it is they fancy purchasing today. To give you an example, I've managed to turn a £5 sale into a £150 sale more than once, all without pressure. Combination of talking to the kid about 'what he would need' and talking to the parent about 'what this will do for him'.

As for GW stores being more limited than a single FLGS etc... I fail to see how being part of a chain is a bad thing? Barring the odd exception, chain stores very much dominate the world. Why? Because of a plateau of quality and service. GW's have far less fluctuation in these than FLGS. Some FLGS are truly amazing, but others, well there's a reason they don't tend to last long in too many cases.

"You see, the models do indeed 'sell themselves'." Indeed. To answer your question about "how being part of a chain is a bad thing", I can only point to my post above, as any explanation is first simply repeating what I wrote.

GW stores are rather interesting, as unlike other company's factory outlets they don't offer the company's goods at a cheaper price, rather they simply pile on more "premium service".

Mr Mystery wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:Not to be pedantic, but you do realize that the rationalization "everyone else is doing it" even if true (and I disagree that it is true), wouldn't make it laudable, right?

Laudable? To a business man it is indeed laudable. In the abscence of a Walmart 'pile it high sell it cheap' volume dealing, why in the name of satan's throbbing portion wouldn't you charge what the market will bare? Name me one global company with an entirely philanthropic pricing structure?

I think the biggest problem here is that you need to stop, reread what I wrote, and then read what you wrote. I have said several times now that I am proposing that GW should "stop doing X and Y, and just sell me Y, made cheaper by the absence of X"; you then bring up Walmart and "'pile it high sell it cheap' volume dealing", and then go on to ask "Name me one global company with an entirely philanthropic pricing structure?" Well, at the risk, again, of being pedantic, how about the one you mentioned the sentence before, Walmart?

Remember, I'm in disagreement with your premise that GW's prices are a) representative of the field, and b) "bearable" by the market. Now, this is of course opinion, but all I can say is that I haven't bought GW products at retail prices, for the best of my recollection, perhaps 2, maybe 3 years now. I simply can't justify the price to myself on a per-model basis.

The "'pile it high sell it cheap' volume dealing" style of selling is entirely what I am suggesting is what GW needs to do: you mentioned that "I fail to see how being part of a chain is a bad thing? Barring the odd exception, chain stores very much dominate the world." But they don't dominate the global market simply by virtue of being "chain stores", they dominate because they are able to use the economies of scale and shared promotion to sell a standardized (generally) high quality product at competitive prices. GW stores, by contrast, sell a standardized high-quality product at premium prices.

GW's products are more expensive on a per-model basis than many of their competitors, I don't think there's a huge disagreement on this. Whether or not they claim on their balance sheet, several people in this thread at least have stated that the premiums that GW stores (and Retailer support) makes up for this.

Let's put it another way: GW sells you a model kit, and includes in the price of a painting lesson in the kit's sticker price. All well and good for people that would like a painting lesson, except that once they get the lesson, they're still paying for it, because the price never goes down. And those people that didn't want a painting lesson to start? They're just out of luck then I suppose.

Ed_Bodger wrote:Also I was not talking about hiding the extent of the hobby it is the realisation of the cost of the hobby that causes a shock and leads to a discontinuation of the hobby especially amongst parents.

Really? Maybe the difference in US vs UK. I sell GW to parents by showing how cheap it is compared to all the other stuff they spend money on.

-Art classes at 25.00 a week for a half hour of making a clay ashtray, and 25.00 the next week to paint it.
-Hundreds of dollars a quarter for piano lessons the kid doesn't want to take.
-Sports uniforms and equipment.
-Toys. Holy Emperor, the TOYS! Parents are already spending huge amounts a year on stuff the kids break or don't want.

I have parents that specifically bring in kids to get them into a hobby and off an x-box. They want something to occupy the kids time that isn't a video game or TV, where they actually have to interact with a human being. Wargaming involves reading, math, logic, and problem solving. Painting and modeling teach patience, hand-eye co-ordination, and a number of skills that can be useful down the road.

Compared to what parents are already spending on the kids, and quite possibly getting less out of it, wargaming is actually quite cheap.

Again, might be a UK vs. US thing, as I have no idea what the average parent spends on children over there.

The other thing that always comes to mind when someone complains about the cost of a GW model, is what they would spend the money on other wise? Everyone has a salarly or money coming in, and most of us don't have a thing left at the end of the year, so where'd it go? Want to demoralize someone? Help them with a budget for their yearly expenses and work out what they spend on pizza, cigarettes, gas, coffee, etc. (Beer does not count! Beer is a basic commodity like food, housing, or bacon.) I've got one guy that used to say "I don't have the money to play Warhammer". Turns out Rob worked in the mall, and rather than bring a lunch, ate at the mall twice a day, five days a week, spending 80 bucks a week, and 4000.00 a year. I told him to start packing his lunch and he could afford a new space marine army and a girlfriend on the side.) A starbucks habit is worse.

Everyone earns money, everyone spends money, very few have saving left over, and alot of us accumulate debt on credit cards, cars, and houses. All the money you earn gets spent. Everything is expensive when you look at it's cost per year. Warhammer is just an easy target.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Buzzsaw wrote:GW's products are more expensive on a per-model basis than many of their competitors, I don't think there's a huge disagreement on this.

Sorry, but I'll disagree. I would define GW's closest competitiors in the wargaming industry as Warmachine/Hordes, and Flames of War. Both companies have had to raise prices significant'y in the past 5 years. Privateer games take less models to play, but players are constantly buying the new models that come out, to keep up with the game. Privateer responds by making their business model very front end loaded, with constant releases. I've watched 15mm tanks go from 8.00 to 12.00 in the last couple of years. Both companies are moving to doing more with plastic models, following GW's success with them.

There are a lot of other games out there with cheaper models, or companies making cheaper models for use in GW games. But I don't think of them as competition to GW. If they were, I'd be selling a whole lot more of the cheaper alternatives than I do right now.

To Ed_Bodger:

Thank you for posting. I would like to read your work paper as well so I can compare notes on your viewpoint with my own.

can you post up a url on it please?

mikhaila wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Buzzsaw wrote:GW's products are more expensive on a per-model basis than many of their competitors, I don't think there's a huge disagreement on this.

Sorry, but I'll disagree. I would define GW's closest competitiors in the wargaming industry as Warmachine/Hordes, and Flames of War. Both companies have had to raise prices significant'y in the past 5 years. Privateer games take less models to play, but players are constantly buying the new models that come out, to keep up with the game. Privateer responds by making their business model very front end loaded, with constant releases. I've watched 15mm tanks go from 8.00 to 12.00 in the last couple of years. Both companies are moving to doing more with plastic models, following GW's success with them.

There are a lot of other games out there with cheaper models, or companies making cheaper models for use in GW games. But I don't think of them as competition to GW. If they were, I'd be selling a whole lot more of the cheaper alternatives than I do right now.

I refute you by emphasis. I would also point out that "many" is not a synonym for "closest", nor 'most', nor 'every' for that matter. Ultimately, ours is a difference not of fact, but of definitions; you acknowledge that there are "games out there with cheaper models, or companies making cheaper models", but prefer not to label them as competitors to GW, whereas I do. Further, since your definition of competition for GW requires that a company "be selling a whole lot more of the cheaper alternatives than [you] do right now", this would seem an insuperable barrier to definitional change, being, as it is, linked not to overall sales globally, regionally or even within an industry or a sub-market within an industry, but within the 4 walls of your establishment. Therefore, in the manner of the season and good Christian generosity of spirit, allow to humbly redefine my statement as follows;

GW's products are more expensive on a per-model basis than some of their competitors, I don't think there's a huge disagreement on this.

In the spirit of such compromise, allow me to ask; do you feel that GW's prices, on their own, reflect adequate value for money? Given the content of your post above (especially the notion that "Compared to what parents are already spending on the kids... wargaming is actually quite cheap"), it would seem in a case of first impression that you do. If so, then we are simply at an impasse, as I do not find their prices, taken on their own, to be adequate for the money, and we are unlikely to convince each other.

Put another way, if I claim that gold is outrageously expensive at $10,000 an ounce, that evaluation is little mollified by the recitation that it is a bargain compared to platinum at $20,000 an ounce.

Ed_Bodger wrote:You would be very welcome to read it and yes it is written very differently to how I post on the internet. It was based upon a survey of over 1,000 customers from various locations around the UK and interviews with current staff at all levels within GW, plus a little bit of internet research for some international perspectives.

Also I was not talking about hiding the extent of the hobby it is the realisation of the cost of the hobby that causes a shock and leads to a discontinuation of the hobby especially amongst parents.

Count me also among those that would be interested in reading your work.

At what point though does an alternative become a competitor? I mean GW are far and away the market leader, with if memory serves, something like 60-70% market share.

Let's take Mantic, a fairly new company. Sure, their models are nice and cheap, and they do indeed have their own rules, but in order to be a genuine competitor to GW's title is going to take a while. PP are indeed going quite well from what I understand, but still have nowhere near the market penetration of GW, and without their own stores are unlikely (as are other companies) to make a serious dent in GW's position.

As has been illustrated already, whether or not you find GW good value is an entirely personal affair. I do, as I have easy access to my local store, and am well known there (being a former staff member). Indeed I once worked out the per-hour cost of my Savage Orcs over a year, allowing time to paint the army, and the amount of games I tend to play a week. Worked out in the region of £3 an hour. And I don't mind telling you that where I live, there is literally nothing else I can do for that sort of price.

I'll illustrate with my current army, Ogre Kingdoms. Comprised of 2 Batallions, 2 Irongut boxes, 3 Rhinoxen, a Tyrant and a Butcher. To buy this off the peg would set you back £269 if I've done my sums right. Now, everything to play with them....measuring tape, rulebook, army book, paints, glues, tools etc. £62.50 for the books, £27 for glue, clipper, files and hobby knife, £7 for dice and measuring tape. Also whack on £12 for two lots of movement trays, and I think we're about there for everything I need to play this army. £377.50 before paints. Now to remember by paint scheme...Spray, 10 different pots, three different brushes...£44.50 to go on top and we're on a round £422.00.

So, I reckon it will take me around 6 hours to paint each horde unit, same for the Rhinox, 3ish per character, and I'm done. So all in...21 hours painting. I usually fit in 2 games a week, each taking up 2.5 hours of my time including set up and packing up on average. So, in the first year of owning this army, including a rough 6 hours of construction (Ogres are simple to build!) and we're on 157 active hours in an average year.

So we now divide the cost, by the time to see the hourly rate...

Rounding up the nearest penny, thats £2.69 per hour. I honestly cannot do anything else locally for that amount. Movies are £9 just to get in, without transport to and from (why it's on the arse end of nowhere in the industrial estate, I will never know) Hell a pint of my favoured Beer runs to £3.10 and that's lucky to last 20 minutes.

So as you can see to me the hobby is excellent value. And if we were to include just the cost of the models in the army (as I had everything else already, and included it to avoid calls of obfuscation) that hourly rate drops to a mere £1.72 per hour. Which is positively a bargain in my book.

Hence why I continue in this hobby. Sure, my next planned army (Vampires with lots of Skeletons for that Harryhausen feel) isn't going to be cheap (I want 3 units of 40 Skellies, at £15 for 10) but as I know I'll get my monies worth out of them, I'm not fussed by the price. Your experience might well differ, but you can hardly fault my logic.

Not sure about everyone else here, but personally speaking, if I have to start working out a cost per hour figure for every single activity to judge whether it is 'worth' doing or cost effective, kind of misses the point.

Just to be devils advocate: drawing is an excellent hobby. I bought a box pencils for a dollar and spent 200 hours on a drawing. the guy who sold me the paper should have charged me $500 by that logic and I still would have gotten good value for my money.

No, but then the guy selling you the paper likely doesn't design, manufacture and sell it all himself.

And depending on what medium of art you practice, it can be very expensive in terms of materials. Also worth re-reading my post, specifically the part about why I find it good value.

Also filbert, the cost per hour thing came up a while back, originally on Warseer as a way of explaining why I don't whinge about the price as long as I continue to see value in what I'm buying.

Mr Mystery wrote:No, but then the guy selling you the paper likely doesn't design, manufacture and sell it all himself.

And depending on what medium of art you practice, it can be very expensive in terms of materials.

Also filbert, the cost per hour thing came up a while back, originally on Warseer as a way of explaining why I don't whinge about the price as long as I continue to see value in what I'm buying.

I understand the logic; the point I am trying to make is that totting up a cost per hour value for every leisure activity in order to somehow determine what is 'better' based on a monetary value, is simply not a valid or fair comparison - GW/war gaming in particular would always score well because of the time taken to paint which skews the value.

This argument seems to crop up time and time again. Bottom line is that different people have different criteria for what they consider to be value for money. It really is an arbitrary thing.

Which is my point exactly. Cost and value are two seperate things entirely.

Hence why I am looking at shelling out new Larping kit this year, despite only doing it annually. I enjoy it, and fit in..erm....72 hours in that one event, so no beef from myself chucking £300 on kit. Spesh if I buy carefully and choose items I can use again should my character get slotted.

So in essence, to make any kind of empirical statement that GW charges too much is a bit untrue. Sure, you personally might find it hard to justify the £422 I mentioned, but to me, I find it an agreeable price. I could get it cheaper of course, but again I choose to pay where I play, so that's a further cost I choose to bare.

To all those who wanted to read the paper I submit it on the 4th January and get it back some time towards the end of February I would be more than happy for you to see it after it is marked but I am not allowed to publish it before hand (part of the exam board rules) so as soon as I get it back it is all your for the reading.

Groovy. Let me know via PM when it's available!

Buzzsaw wrote:In the spirit of such compromise, allow me to ask; do you feel that GW's prices, on their own, reflect adequate value for money? Given the content of your post above (especially the notion that "Compared to what parents are already spending on the kids... wargaming is actually quite cheap"), it would seem in a case of first impression that you do. If so, then we are simply at an impasse, as I do not find their prices, taken on their own, to be adequate for the money, and we are unlikely to convince each other.

I would say that it does. And it would seem that the vast majority of people playing wargames agree.

Buzzsaw wrote:Put another way, if I claim that gold is outrageously expensive at $10,000 an ounce, that evaluation is little mollified by the recitation that it is a bargain compared to platinum at $20,000 an ounce.

Surely there are only three ways of establishing the "value" of something:
1. Market Value - what people are prepared to pay. On this basis it's doing fine.
2. Comparison to similar products. On this basis too, it's not too bad. (even compared to Mantic, the all plastic infantry isn't that much cheaper whilst having much less variety. The metal/plastic hybrid kits like cavalry are more expensive than GW's metal/plastic cavalry and much more expensive than the all plastic cavalry) Warmachine models are way more expensive than most 40K minis. A 40K army costs more but the cost per mini is dramatically lower.
3. Personal Value - how much you feel it's worth to you.

You've already decide to discount the first and second options, leaving only the third which is entirely subjective.

I can't say that I have much experience with GW personally, other than customer support.

And I along with 2 others at least from the FLGS have had some problems, and GW resolved the problems without hassle. Hard to get that from any other company in any reasonable time.

I can get over the fact that it costs me $25 dollars for 10 guys, because I will spend 8 hours putting them together and painting them. That along is worth the money. Then the countless amount of hours they will die on the table (guardsman are squishy).

At least GW can keep the shelves stocked. The FLGS can't get any more Warmachine because PP is so backordered, it will be months before he gets what he wants in orders, losing him hundreds in sales. At least with GW he can order it Tuesday and it will be in the store Friday, waiting for you to pick up.

I just wish that they would add more variety to the guard. The Catachans are a pain in the butt to put to put together, and the Cadians are too common on the table. And as much as I like the forgeworld models, they just don't really fit in well with my tastes.

quick edit here:
I wonder how many of you that have complained about their sales staff have any experience actually selling to people in a retail setting. Stores have quotas, and it is the sales staff's job to meet those. Sure the great salespeople can take a $5 dollar sale and turn into a $100 dollars. I had one lady come in for a lei and I got her to walk out in $50 dollars in candy, and a few decorations. On a slow day, I would be shoving as much products down your throat as possible. If it was a busy day, I would practically be ignoring you because I had work to get done. All this happens while 3 managers would be breathing down my neck to make sure I was doing what corporate wanted.

I got yelled at by the human resources guy because I didn't push beverage napkins on a lady. Cashiers always had to push an item when they were ringing them up, usually something small that is easily forgettable while roaming around. But how do you push beverage napkins on someone who is already buying 10 packs for them?

commissar80 wrote:My opinion, gw has excellent customer service, but are too pricey. I wished they kept up with the support games, necromunda, epic, bloodbowl, space hulk just too name a few, these were really great games. I remmember a road warrior style game gw made back during the rouge trader day off hand I can't think of the name of it, but it look like it had potential. Anyone rememmbers the name of that game?

Dark Future(s?)

I just wish that GW would go back to the good old days and promote publications/products not their own. Sure they don't have to go to the likes of PP, but at least go back to RPGs. Anyone remember the short Traveller/Runequest/Call Of Cthulu adventures. Those made WD worth reading, it wasn't just £4 for a bunch of adverts.

And it was an opportunity to keep people in the hobby abreast of what was happening elsewhere, and so perhaps keep them going.

Cheers

Andrew

AndrewC wrote:

commissar80 wrote:My opinion, gw has excellent customer service, but are too pricey. I wished they kept up with the support games, necromunda, epic, bloodbowl, space hulk just too name a few, these were really great games. I remmember a road warrior style game gw made back during the rouge trader day off hand I can't think of the name of it, but it look like it had potential. Anyone rememmbers the name of that game?

Dark Future(s?)

I just wish that GW would go back to the good old days and promote publications/products not their own. Sure they don't have to go to the likes of PP, but at least go back to RPGs. Anyone remember the short Traveller/Runequest/Call Of Cthulu adventures. Those made WD worth reading, it wasn't just £4 for a bunch of adverts.

And it was an opportunity to keep people in the hobby abreast of what was happening elsewhere, and so perhaps keep them going.

Cheers

Andrew

Wouldn't it be great if they would allow other companies to independently licence and release these? I mean if they really aren't up to much money wise and only appeal to those veteran gamers they have no interest in any more then it would seem a great idea. Perhaps these games would actually do very well in the right hands.

My guess is that GW just don't want them cutting into the profits of the big three they currently have because the main games all have huge buy in costs and Necromunda and the rest have relatively small buy in costs. They are perfect for those on a limited budget or starting into the hobby or just have limited time and space. It rather looks like Necromunda and others were a little *too* well designed compared to 40K/fantasy and took people away from their main games where the really big money is to be found. They must have been well designed because they have an enduring appeal that has long outlived their retirement from GW stores, Necromunda, Warhammer Quest and Epic all have very loyal and long lived fanbases. Space Hulk got a re-release on the basis that it was a flash in the pan that received no enduring support in stores or the magazine.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

AndrewC wrote:

commissar80 wrote:My opinion, gw has excellent customer service, but are too pricey. I wished they kept up with the support games, necromunda, epic, bloodbowl, space hulk just too name a few, these were really great games. I remmember a road warrior style game gw made back during the rouge trader day off hand I can't think of the name of it, but it look like it had potential. Anyone rememmbers the name of that game?

Dark Future(s?)

I just wish that GW would go back to the good old days and promote publications/products not their own. Sure they don't have to go to the likes of PP, but at least go back to RPGs. Anyone remember the short Traveller/Runequest/Call Of Cthulu adventures. Those made WD worth reading, it wasn't just £4 for a bunch of adverts.

And it was an opportunity to keep people in the hobby abreast of what was happening elsewhere, and so perhaps keep them going.

Cheers

Andrew

Wouldn't it be great if they would allow other companies to independently licence and release these? I mean if they really aren't up to much money wise and only appeal to those veteran gamers they have no interest in any more then it would seem a great idea. Perhaps these games would actually do very well in the right hands.

Haven't they done something similar with FFG? What's the difference between FFG releasing a Horus Heresy game and releasing a Dark Futures or Man o War reboot?

I don't understand why GW are so keen to sweep these older games under the carpet.

filbert wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

AndrewC wrote:

commissar80 wrote:My opinion, gw has excellent customer service, but are too pricey. I wished they kept up with the support games, necromunda, epic, bloodbowl, space hulk just too name a few, these were really great games. I remmember a road warrior style game gw made back during the rouge trader day off hand I can't think of the name of it, but it look like it had potential. Anyone rememmbers the name of that game?

Dark Future(s?)

I just wish that GW would go back to the good old days and promote publications/products not their own. Sure they don't have to go to the likes of PP, but at least go back to RPGs. Anyone remember the short Traveller/Runequest/Call Of Cthulu adventures. Those made WD worth reading, it wasn't just £4 for a bunch of adverts.

And it was an opportunity to keep people in the hobby abreast of what was happening elsewhere, and so perhaps keep them going.

Cheers

Andrew

Wouldn't it be great if they would allow other companies to independently licence and release these? I mean if they really aren't up to much money wise and only appeal to those veteran gamers they have no interest in any more then it would seem a great idea. Perhaps these games would actually do very well in the right hands.

Haven't they done something similar with FFG? What's the difference between FFG releasing a Horus Heresy game and releasing a Dark Futures or Man o War reboot?

I don't understand why GW are so keen to sweep these older games under the carpet.

Expect to see more GW liscenced games coming out from FFG over the next couple of years. Things like Manowar and DF are actually quite a possibility.

mikhaila wrote:

filbert wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

AndrewC wrote:

commissar80 wrote:My opinion, gw has excellent customer service, but are too pricey. I wished they kept up with the support games, necromunda, epic, bloodbowl, space hulk just too name a few, these were really great games. I remmember a road warrior style game gw made back during the rouge trader day off hand I can't think of the name of it, but it look like it had potential. Anyone rememmbers the name of that game?

Dark Future(s?)

I just wish that GW would go back to the good old days and promote publications/products not their own. Sure they don't have to go to the likes of PP, but at least go back to RPGs. Anyone remember the short Traveller/Runequest/Call Of Cthulu adventures. Those made WD worth reading, it wasn't just £4 for a bunch of adverts.

And it was an opportunity to keep people in the hobby abreast of what was happening elsewhere, and so perhaps keep them going.

Cheers

Andrew

Wouldn't it be great if they would allow other companies to independently licence and release these? I mean if they really aren't up to much money wise and only appeal to those veteran gamers they have no interest in any more then it would seem a great idea. Perhaps these games would actually do very well in the right hands.

Haven't they done something similar with FFG? What's the difference between FFG releasing a Horus Heresy game and releasing a Dark Futures or Man o War reboot?

I don't understand why GW are so keen to sweep these older games under the carpet.

Expect to see more GW liscenced games coming out from FFG over the next couple of years. Things like Manowar and DF are actually quite a possibility.

Thumbs up from me - some of these older games were pretty decent and deserve exposure to a newer audience.

filbert wrote:Haven't they done something similar with FFG? What's the difference between FFG releasing a Horus Heresy game and releasing a Dark Futures or Man o War reboot?

I don't understand why GW are so keen to sweep these older games under the carpet.

I know FFG do the RPG 40K releases but they are new rather than older games, and they are RPGs. There are lots of older games with dedicated fan bases that are unsupported.

Dark Future and Man o' War would be great to see again, GW had a good go at burying MoW not long after it was released.

FFG also do Talisman, several expansions for Taliman, Chaos in the Old World, and Warhammer Invasion LCG. The Deathwatch card game is new, and they reprinted the old Chaos Marauder game. Horus Heresy I haven't played yet, so I can't say how close it is to the old board game.

I like GW. The value is there for me. The community is there. The pricing is fine considering how much use I get out of them and how much I enjoy it. My two "evening" hobbies after work are generally reading and miniatures. For the amount of time I get out of my miniatures game/hobby wise I'm golden at their price. Granted I rarely purchase at cost unless I'm supporting a local store or buying in to a tournament but hey, I've got no problem with them.

No other miniature game in the produced is easier to find a game for anywhere here in the US that I've travelled. I'd support them just based on that alone. Plus I'm a big tourney junky and 40k is the only miniature game that has a large tournament circuit and largely organized community. And it's only getting better!

This old horse is dead, buried and rotted to dust.

But I suppose it is a discussion that must be had with each new wave of fresh faces.

GW is a business. A business exists to turn a profit. GW dominates the market, has grown and innovated the industry like no game company before or since and they are still around after 30 years. They are doing a lot of things right.

Is it worth the money? That is a decision only you can answer for yourself. If you take a lot of enjoyment from their games, then obviously yes. If you do not, then no. Pretty simple.

A 2,000 point army with some extra units to change things up bought at retail with books, dice, an army bag, etc. will run you about $600. That army will last you for years.

If you keep and use that army for 4 years, you paid $150 a year to assemble and paint an army, make new friends, play countless hours of fun games and generally enjoy yourself.

That to me is more than worth the cost of admission.

GW has excellent customer service as well. They do take care of their paying customers.

The game is huge and growing all the time. I move around a lot and no matter where I have gone I have been able to find a place I can play, make new friends and have fun with my armies.

So yeah, I love GW. Their games have provided me with hours and hours of fun. I spend what is realistic for me on the game and don't even think twice about it. It's far cheaper than Golf, Scuba, Drinking, Snowboarding, or any other number of hobbies.

I hope GW lasts for ages and that I can one day play this silly game with my kids and grand kids.