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Ahtman wrote:If you want to see something that looks just plain awful, look up X-Men: First Class.

Now I quite like the look of X-Men: First Class. Have a little faith in Matthew "Layer Cake & Kick Ass" Vaughan here. X-Men in the 60s is a neat idea. Plus it sees the return of Kevin Bacon, so no gripes from me.

I'd still like to see the Penguin as a crime lord, moving in to fill the void that's been left from the Jokers power play. Someone who can match Bruce Wayne buisiness wise, but is also in control of hte underground, a la Kingpin.

Flashman wrote:In Nolan's fairly grounded Batman universe, can we expect a Catwoman costume?
...........................With all this in mind, I can't see Hathaway being made to squeeze into a skin tight leather outfit, never mind donning a pair of cat ears. If 'Cat Woman' is mentioned at all, I think it will be a soubriquet given to her by Gotham's press and nothing more.

Maybe but I just think that not letting Catwoman have a costume would be such a waste.

Anne does tight-fitting so well......

sebster wrote:

Chrysaor686 wrote:Yet, you'll accept a weaponized hallucinogen that doesn't really exist, a secret organization of ninjas that causes great civilizations to fall, a sonar system that utilizes every cellular phone in Gotham City, and numerous other gadgets that batman uses that make absolutely no sense without some suspension of disbelief.

The microwave gun that could heat up a river while doing nothing to the water in the human body was sillier than any of that. But yes, as I said in my latter post, there are plenty of bits of comic book silliness in that Batman movies, but they work on a vague level of superscience, and are about as plausible as the idea of single man with a secret identity bringing down whole crime syndicates.

There's actually a point in Batman Begins where Lucius Fox mentions that the microwave gun would do a lot of damage to the human body, because of the water content we have.

Which is very different thing than the goofiness of a guy using a wrestling move to break your back.

How is it goofy? The whole point of Bane breaking Batman over his knee was that Bane went out of his way to do it in front of as many citizens of Gotham as he could.

It was a symbolic gesture, showing that he had 'broken' Batman.

Venom is basically a super-steroid, and it wouldn't be that hard to justify it's existance within Nolan's reimagining of the franchise (even if they didn't actually call it venom; that would still work perfectly fine). Bane is more than a physical match for Batman because of his intense use of the drug, and that's what makes him so dangerous.

Bane taking a super-steroid is fine.

Agreed. As long as Bane is someone who was raised within a prison, experimented upon and then broke loose explicitly in an attempt to match his wits against Batman...I'm okay with it.

How is someone getting their back broken at all goofy? If anything, that would make for a great scene, prone to shock the audience and create rather high levels of tension.

It would depend how it was done. If it was the result of Batman being thrown off a building, or being beaten while knocked on the ground, it'd be more plausible. Bane picking Batman up and breaking him over his knee is silly. It's a wrestling move.

Again; it was symbolic. Bane broke as many criminals out of Arkham Asylum and Blackgate Prison as he could. He ran Batman ragged, to the point where he was making mistakes.

Then he finally beat him senseless, and dragged him around Gotham until there were citizens watching. Then he broke Batman over his knee, in full view of the citizens.

Also, name a villain that would actually fit within the confines of Nolan's universe better than Bane would, that you would actually want to see portrayed. Most of the villains are completely out of the question, and the rest of them are just cheesy or not really much of a threat at all.

I thought a take on the Riddler, as a guy committing crimes to reveal Batman's identity would work pretty well.

Maybe, but I've always felt "The Riddler" was one of the poorest entries in Batman's Rogue Gallery.
"Hush" pretty much cemented that to me, but it also brought forth the idea that if we see Riddler crop up in this Nolanverse...he'd better be manipulating other criminals against Batman.


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Oh yeah. And as of this moment, Hatheway's character is only being referred to as "Selina Kyle". Catwoman has not shown up anywhere outside of people saying "Well Selina Kyle is Catwoman!".

It could just be establishing the character for the future, or just using the name for a love interest, etc.

Best Riddler tale was Milligans' "Dark Knight, Dark City" which is a great story -- bit of an influence on some of the recent tales as well.

There's stuff here about it -- spoils everything though be warned ! http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/2202005.html

How is it goofy?

Watch the Rowdy Roddy Piper in They Live then come back and tell me how goofy wrestling moves like that would fit into Nolan's aesthetic.

Breaking the Bat was an important moment in the comics, but it was the breaking that is important, not the how. What looks good and symbolic on a page doesn't mean it will look good on a screen. In your life have you ever seen a street fight or MMA match where one guy was able to pick the other guy up slowly up over his head and drop him? The last time I saw someone do that in a movie was the Chronicles of Riddick. Even there it looked silly.

Being in the 60's and Kevin Bacon are the 2 best things about First Class. Everything else looks painful?

That's it exactly...Bane is one huge pro wrestling motif, from the outfit to the chemically-created, ridiculous physique to the moves. And I don't see how they can really carry *any* of it into the Nolanverse.

It has to be a very different take...and the aforementioned idea of making it a Jekyll and Hyde-y thing is a great one, IMO. Definitely gives an opportunity for a more nuanced performance from a good actor.

The continuing rumors about Talia and/or another love interest would seem to make it an overly crowded movie on the female front. Although again it may play into Bruce's psyche...the unnamed love interest representing his desire to live his life as Bruce (a la Rachel), and Catwoman his desire to lead a dual life retaining the Batman identity.

I do think the whole identity/duality thing they started in The Dark Knight will be an important part of the film somehow, especially if they're trying to wrap it up.

Ahtman wrote:

How is it goofy?

Watch the Rowdy Roddy Piper in They Live then come back and tell me how goofy wrestling moves like that would fit into Nolan's aesthetic.

Breaking the Bat was an important moment in the comics, but it was the breaking that is important, not the how. What looks good and symbolic on a page doesn't mean it will look good on a screen. In your life have you ever seen a street fight or MMA match where one guy was able to pick the other guy up slowly up over his head and drop him? The last time I saw someone do that in a movie was the Chronicles of Riddick. Even there it looked silly.

I agree that a lot of Bane's style and aesthetic is too wrestling-based, but the silliness is easily stripped out, and breaking someone's back isn't all that incredible. At least in the sense of a dramatic hold and smash move leading to a spinal fracture and temporary or permanent crippling. You don't lift a guy completely over your head in MMA, but there are multiple grapple situations I've seen where one guy winds up lifting/holding up another (especially if they're fighting against a wall), and then smashing him down on the ground, spine-first. It wouldn't be the same "break over the knee like kindling" image, but the concept would be fairly similar and not particularly ridiculous or unrealistic from what I've seen of MMA.

I've always said they should include bane in the next film, glad to hear we'll be seeing him. He fits the grim setting very well, he is as close as you'll get to a "superhuman" in a real life setting.

Chrysaor686 wrote:

Also, name a villain that would actually fit within the confines of Nolan's universe better than Bane would, that you would actually want to see portrayed. Most of the villains are completely out of the question, and the rest of them are just cheesy or not really much of a threat at all.

Penguin and Black Mask. Two mob bosses(considering the importance of organized crime in the previous 2 movies, they'd fit better) with different styles(Penguin in the comics is all about appearances and running a very gentlemanly style of mob; Black Mask is all about the violent side of organized crime and ruling through fear and sheer willpower) warring with the Bat caught between them trying to keep the city from being completely torn apart. It's absolutely perfect for the Nolan-verse, especially since both are canonically non-metahumans(either born or given through super-steroids).

Will Tom die too :(


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Ahtman wrote:

How is it goofy?

Watch the Rowdy Roddy Piper in They Live then come back and tell me how goofy wrestling moves like that would fit into Nolan's aesthetic.

Breaking the Bat was an important moment in the comics, but it was the breaking that is important, not the how. What looks good and symbolic on a page doesn't mean it will look good on a screen. In your life have you ever seen a street fight or MMA match where one guy was able to pick the other guy up slowly up over his head and drop him? The last time I saw someone do that in a movie was the Chronicles of Riddick. Even there it looked silly.

Being in the 60's and Kevin Bacon are the 2 best things about First Class. Everything else looks painful?

MMA has weight classes, remove them and that sort of slam is very doable, think Tank Abbot being stopped from throwing someone out the cage (forget who). But yes Hardy doesn't look big enough. I doubt an audience would really appreciate actual wrestling anyway, it looks very gay if you don't know the reality.

Bob Sapp is the sort of size I expect for Bane, but I guess they'll get the same effect with camera angles etc.

Breaking batmans back will probably come down to something as easy as Bane overtaking batman in a fight, knocking him down, and then *insert evil bad guy punch line* then POW! a solid stomp on his back. Here again folks, this is KC saying thats how its happening

Reading comprehension is for losers I guess. I never said (nor did Sebster) that his back would not be broken,though I don't think that will happen. IRL there isn't any coming back from a broken spinal cord and Nolan doesn't do magic, just that I don't believe it will happen the same as the comic.

I also asked if anyone has ever seen a video of a real fight, street or MMA, where someone pulled off that move. So far no one has said yes. I get "under the most inane of circumstances it is possible". Lots of things are possible, they just aren't probable. It isn't practical and really doesn't work outside of a Pro wrestling situation. The unlikelihood of it becomes even greater when you are talking about two highly trained and skilled fighters. It works in a universe where people can literally move planets, but that isn't ha Nolan set up his world.

Ahtman wrote:Reading comprehension is for losers I guess.

Ahtman wrote:I never said (nor did Sebster) that his back would not be broken,though I don't think that will happen. IRL there isn't any coming back from a broken spinal cord and Nolan doesn't do magic, just that I don't believe it will happen the same as the comic.

"Broken back" does not necessarily equal "severed spinal cord". Fractured vertebrae can also = "broken back" and is possible to recover from.

Ahtman wrote:I also asked if anyone has ever seen a video of a real fight, street or MMA, where someone pulled off that move. So far no one has said yes.

Let me try to rephrase then. As I said before, no one pulls the exact "lift overhead then snap them over my knee like kindling" move. However, I have repeatedly seen fighters in MMA get into a clinch where one man lifts another off the ground, and then slams the opponent down on the ground. Usually the consequences are not too bad, but sometimes the guy being slammed can't break his own fall/landing very well because he's got his limbs engaged on his opponent's body as part of the grapple. It is entirely possible that a spinal injury could result from something like this. This situation becomes more likely and plausible if you change the situation to one where the slamming combatant is substantially larger / stronger than the one being slammed, as opposed to an MMA fight where the weights are usually close.

Some Rage about the last move bane was in: (not about bane but basically sums up that movie)



also who i want as zsasz :

Zsasz has an actor.

And it's not him.

Kanluwen wrote:Zsasz has an actor.

And it's not him.

Indeed.



He was also in the courtroom where Crane called him by his name near the beginning of the movie.

Kanluwen wrote:Zsasz has an actor.

And it's not him.

which we see what twice?

Im talking about zsasz as an actual character in the storyline (with lines and plot based around him), im not sure how good of a guy that actor is but if he was up to the task then fine.

Gibbsey wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Zsasz has an actor.

And it's not him.

which we see what twice?

Considering how low a profile a character he is that fact that Nolan had the presence to include him at all is a bit of a victory. Any other director would probably not care about such details. 90% of the audience that saw the movie probably never hear of Zsasz before and still don't know who he is. If anything, you hear more about him post Batman Begins than you ever did before the film came out.

Kanluwen wrote:There's actually a point in Batman Begins where Lucius Fox mentions that the microwave gun would do a lot of damage to the human body, because of the water content we have.

Except when they use it, it doesn't. Are you going to defend it as sensible or plausible? Because, apart from the thing being able to dehydrate a riobviously not plausible, it also goes against your own argument that the films have included many fantastical elements already, so it kinds of looks like you think discussion is just about being contrary...

It was a symbolic gesture, showing that he had 'broken' Batman.

Yes, and he completed this symbol while dressed as a Mexican wrestler, and by performing a wrestling move. Which works fine in the context of comic, and would be fine in many interpretations of Batman on film, but would be wildly out of place, and look silly in interpretation that Nolan has created.

Agreed. As long as Bane is someone who was raised within a prison, experimented upon and then broke loose explicitly in an attempt to match his wits against Batman...I'm okay with it.

Almost all of that is droppable. Really, anything and everything is droppable. Fidelity to how the character was written in another work really doesn't matter, what matters is if the character works within the movie.

Again; it was symbolic. Bane broke as many criminals out of Arkham Asylum and Blackgate Prison as he could. He ran Batman ragged, to the point where he was making mistakes.

Then he finally beat him senseless, and dragged him around Gotham until there were citizens watching. Then he broke Batman over his knee, in full view of the citizens.

But he did this with a wrestling move. Which is silly. You don't take the risk of taking Batman out of the gothic weirdness of previous movies and into real world locations, then have him fight a guy with wrestling moves. It makes no sense.

Again, have him beat hell out of Batman, if it works for the movie. If breaking his back can be made to work then go for it. But I don't believe there is a possible way to make the back breaking work in Nolan's Batman, if depicted as it was in the comic.

Maybe, but I've always felt "The Riddler" was one of the poorest entries in Batman's Rogue Gallery.
"Hush" pretty much cemented that to me, but it also brought forth the idea that if we see Riddler crop up in this Nolanverse...he'd better be manipulating other criminals against Batman.

It all depends on the interpretation. As a master manipulator, or as a highly skilled crime solver who becomes obsessed with finding Batman's identity it could work. But it would likely feel like a retread of the Joker.

It could just be establishing the character for the future, or just using the name for a love interest, etc.

I think it's unlikely they're laying any groundwork for future movies, as both Nolan and Bale are looking at this as their last entries in the franchise.


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Ahtman wrote:Reading comprehension is for losers I guess. I never said (nor did Sebster) that his back would not be broken,though I don't think that will happen. IRL there isn't any coming back from a broken spinal cord and Nolan doesn't do magic, just that I don't believe it will happen the same as the comic.

I also asked if anyone has ever seen a video of a real fight, street or MMA, where someone pulled off that move. So far no one has said yes. I get "under the most inane of circumstances it is possible". Lots of things are possible, they just aren't probable. It isn't practical and really doesn't work outside of a Pro wrestling situation. The unlikelihood of it becomes even greater when you are talking about two highly trained and skilled fighters. It works in a universe where people can literally move planets, but that isn't ha Nolan set up his world.

More than anything, breaking his back by picking him up and throwing him is really camp. In the comics that kind of theatre works, but it hasn't been present in Nolan's films to date.

Overpowering Batman then breaking his back in the course of giving him an everloving kicking while lying on the ground would work. The pick up and drop move wouldn't.

Mannahnin wrote:

Let me try to rephrase then. As I said before, no one pulls the exact "lift overhead then snap them over my knee like kindling" move. However, I have repeatedly seen fighters in MMA get into a clinch where one man lifts another off the ground, and then slams the opponent down on the ground. Usually the consequences are not too bad, but sometimes the guy being slammed can't break his own fall/landing very well because he's got his limbs engaged on his opponent's body as part of the grapple. It is entirely possible that a spinal injury could result from something like this. This situation becomes more likely and plausible if you change the situation to one where the slamming combatant is substantially larger / stronger than the one being slammed, as opposed to an MMA fight where the weights are usually close.

The octagon has a softer ground than the street etc. Also it's against mma rules to drop someone onto your knee, whether it's a practical idea or not. Your not even allowed to punch or knee the spine.













People picked up over head = yes
Slammed = yes
On Knee = no, against rules

Somehow, I don't expect a back-breaking followed by a Rocky-style recovery/training montage (set to "You're the best! Around!").

We know Bane is in it. We can probably expect he gains strength through some kind of drug/super-steroid. If you're expecting any other details from the comic to make it into the movie, I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Witness Two-Face. He's Harvey Dent, D.A., who's scarred on one side of his body and enjoys flipping a coin, but otherwise a different character with different motivations who never becomes a crime boss.

sebster wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:There's actually a point in Batman Begins where Lucius Fox mentions that the microwave gun would do a lot of damage to the human body, because of the water content we have.

Except when they use it, it doesn't. Are you going to defend it as sensible or plausible? Because, apart from the thing being able to dehydrate a riobviously not plausible, it also goes against your own argument that the films have included many fantastical elements already, so it kinds of looks like you think discussion is just about being contrary...

I'm just saying that they did mention that it would do a lot of damage to the human body. For all we know, the thing had a setting that would just overpressurize water within pipes(which is a copout, sure. But still: it would have had to have been operated by soldiers in the field, since the weapon was designed to specifically neutralize the water supplies of enemy combatants).

Agreed. As long as Bane is someone who was raised within a prison, experimented upon and then broke loose explicitly in an attempt to match his wits against Batman...I'm okay with it.

Almost all of that is droppable. Really, anything and everything is droppable. Fidelity to how the character was written in another work really doesn't matter, what matters is if the character works within the movie.

Except without the whole motivation of the prison that he was raised in(for a crime his father committed) and his further 'sale' to an American drug company, I don't see how it really will work. I mean sure, maybe he'll be a soldier who was experimented upon by the League of Assassins(which would explain the rumors we've seen about Ras Al'Ghul returning). Or maybe he'll be a junkie who made his own drugs.

But personally, those feel like copouts compared to the actual depths of character that Bane has. The whole reason he goes after Batman is because he wants to master his own fears and inadequacies that cropped about from when he was raised in a prison and under the protection of a former SEAL and Marine who were left to rot after their operation was blown.

Again; it was symbolic. Bane broke as many criminals out of Arkham Asylum and Blackgate Prison as he could. He ran Batman ragged, to the point where he was making mistakes.

Then he finally beat him senseless, and dragged him around Gotham until there were citizens watching. Then he broke Batman over his knee, in full view of the citizens.

But he did this with a wrestling move. Which is silly. You don't take the risk of taking Batman out of the gothic weirdness of previous movies and into real world locations, then have him fight a guy with wrestling moves. It makes no sense.
Again, have him beat hell out of Batman, if it works for the movie. If breaking his back can be made to work then go for it. But I don't believe there is a possible way to make the back breaking work in Nolan's Batman, if depicted as it was in the comic.

For the first part:
You're still neglecting the rest of the situation. He doesn't pull off a wrestling move in the middle of a fight. He's already beaten Batman. He's crushed him, utterly. Bane, however, knows the value of theatrics. Same as Batman did, what with him having chose bats to terrify opponents.
Which brings me to the second point:
...And yet, we still have Batman wearing a batsuit and throwing batarangs.

But somehow, Bane's theatrics are "silly"?

There's still weirdness present. There always really will be in comic movies.

Maybe, but I've always felt "The Riddler" was one of the poorest entries in Batman's Rogue Gallery.
"Hush" pretty much cemented that to me, but it also brought forth the idea that if we see Riddler crop up in this Nolanverse...he'd better be manipulating other criminals against Batman.

It all depends on the interpretation. As a master manipulator, or as a highly skilled crime solver who becomes obsessed with finding Batman's identity it could work. But it would likely feel like a retread of the Joker.

Yeah, but at the same time: Riddler doesn't really get his hands dirty, and has an overarching structure to his schemes.

Joker doesn't. His schemes, in terms of structure, almost always are just to inflict as much chaos and anarchy as possible.

It could just be establishing the character for the future, or just using the name for a love interest, etc.

I think it's unlikely they're laying any groundwork for future movies, as both Nolan and Bale are looking at this as their last entries in the franchise.

Bale's leaving the franchise is reliant upon Nolan leaving. If Nolan stays on, Bale stays on.

Just sayin'. Nolan's made it sound like he just wants a break from Batman for awhile.

Sebster wrote:

Ahtman wrote:Reading comprehension is for losers I guess. I never said (nor did Sebster) that his back would not be broken,though I don't think that will happen. IRL there isn't any coming back from a broken spinal cord and Nolan doesn't do magic, just that I don't believe it will happen the same as the comic.

I also asked if anyone has ever seen a video of a real fight, street or MMA, where someone pulled off that move. So far no one has said yes. I get "under the most inane of circumstances it is possible". Lots of things are possible, they just aren't probable. It isn't practical and really doesn't work outside of a Pro wrestling situation. The unlikelihood of it becomes even greater when you are talking about two highly trained and skilled fighters. It works in a universe where people can literally move planets, but that isn't ha Nolan set up his world.

More than anything, breaking his back by picking him up and throwing him is really camp. In the comics that kind of theatre works, but it hasn't been present in Nolan's films to date.

Overpowering Batman then breaking his back in the course of giving him an everloving kicking while lying on the ground would work. The pick up and drop move wouldn't.

Except that's exactly how it happened.
He overpowered Batman, beating the everloving crap out of him.

And then he dragged him around waiting for an audience to do his little bit of theater.

Kanluwen wrote:Yeah, but at the same time: Riddler doesn't really get his hands dirty, and has an overarching structure to his schemes.

Joker doesn't. His schemes, in terms of structure, almost always are just to inflict as much chaos and anarchy as possible.

In Nolan's universe, yes. In comics, the Joker has a long, long history of schemes and plans.

gorgon wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Yeah, but at the same time: Riddler doesn't really get his hands dirty, and has an overarching structure to his schemes.

Joker doesn't. His schemes, in terms of structure, almost always are just to inflict as much chaos and anarchy as possible.

In Nolan's universe, yes. In comics, the Joker has a long, long history of schemes and plans.

And he was still hands on, even within the comic universe.

Or are you going to tell me Jason Todd was him delegating work to a look-alike?

I'm glad Nolan is making this movie.