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it's pretty well known that for many years, car companies made more off of financing cars than from selling them for cash.

Polonius wrote:it's pretty well known that for many years, car companies made more off of financing cars than from selling them for cash.

I would have thought that was self-evident? They can charge interest on the financed amount or am I being obtuse here?

Also, to add to the 'cable-tie' discussion that KK kicked off, I think Scott-S6 mentioned it also, but I think GW need to look at getting affordable box sets out to the masses again. Maybe a reboot of HeroQuest / Space Crusade or even just re-release Space Hulk but the key is to get it out to mainstream toy stores. It doesn't even necessarily have to make much money; it's the market saturation that counts. Pretty much everyone I know who is/was into 40K / Epic, got into it through HeroQuest, Space Crusade, Blood Bowl or something similar

Kilkrazy wrote:You wouldn't have to repoint the entire line, only the units made available for the skirmish game.

This would be the basic infantry units, the less powerful elites and fast attack, and characters/HQ who either aren't too powerful or you reduce their powers for the skirmish game.

Power reduction could be done in the skirmish rules by various methods. Remember how Combat Patrol didn't allow multi-wound models?

My mistake. You are right.


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Polonius wrote:You can also introduce skills, traits, and other special rules along with repointed models. You can also allow mixing and matching from squads.

So an Eldar "fire team" might be a warlock, five dire avengers, two pathfinders, and a striking scorpion. A space marine Fire Team might be a five man combat squad. IG might be a Platoon command, commissar, and two squads. Tau could be 8 fire warriors, three stealth suits, and two pathfinders.

Exactly. This is the kind of game that gets people involved long enough to buy a full army.

And then imagine how cool it would be to one day have your "Fire Team" facing off against the Fire Team that they skirmished against when you were entering the hobby, only now both sides have armies of tanks at their disposal. Small games needn't compete with GW's core product, they can be an integral part of them.

filbert wrote:

Polonius wrote:it's pretty well known that for many years, car companies made more off of financing cars than from selling them for cash.

I would have thought that was self-evident? They can charge interest on the financed amount or am I being obtuse here?

Of course. What I meant to say was that they ONLY made money off of the financing. Selling a car for cash was generally profit neutral.

Seems like the easiest way around the entry point of 40k is to just play necromunda =)

You can download the rules for free I believe and gangs can be had for under $100.

Also its great from a collecting point of view because you can just buy 1 model like a hired gun and still be able to use your new toy without having to buy him 9 other mates.

Its a great system and I really dont know why GW havent just rereleased the game because it was bloody good fun.

I think GW basically does this already.

1 squad Kill Team / Necromunda
400-1000 pts 40k lite
1000-2000 pts "regular" 40k
1500-2500 pts Planetstrike
3000+ pts Apocalypse



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Jubear wrote:Seems like the easiest way around the entry point of 40k is to just play necromunda =)

You can download the rules for free I believe and gangs can be had for under $100.

A box of Cadians or Catachans is all you need.


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Polonius wrote:it's pretty well known that for many years, car companies made more off of financing cars than from selling them for cash.

Car dealers make more money off used cars than new.

They also make more money off service than sales.

Jubear wrote:Seems like the easiest way around the entry point of 40k is to just play necromunda =)

It would be- if I wanted to play a Van Saar army for 40K. Necromunda is a great game, but my armies for 40K are Tau and Eldar. Not much support in Necromunda for them.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I think GW basically does this already.

1 squad Kill Team / Necromunda

See my comment above about Necromunda. GW kinda sort of has a way to use a squad of minis, but it's either not very well thought through (Kill Team) or it's too tied to a completely different setting (Necromunda). I'm saying that GW should make a proper core game that provides complete support through all scales of gameplay, rather than aim for players to play with a large army and then tack on half-hearted options to play at different point levels.

I'm curious. I've never looked at any of the 40K role playing games (or even Fantasy RPG for that matter). Do those games recommend the use of 40K minis for tabletop RPG usage?

Dark Heresy, at least, doesn't require miniatures (and doesn't mention them at all), and the rules for hordes in Death Watch would make using them rather difficult (unless someone has an IG or gaunt-heavy 'nid army to spare). They're really better suited to using the Inquisitor-scale models.

I don't see the problem. 250 pts of "Kill Team" is just fine for starting. If you want more detail, blend over Necroumunda.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I don't see the problem. 250 pts of "Kill Team" is just fine for starting. If you want more detail, blend over Necroumunda.

Which then takes you back to the whole issue of how Necromunda has absolutely minimal overlap with 40k.

The problem with suggesting Necromunda as an entry game is that it has more rules than 40K and therefore that little bit more complex. Which would be counter intuative for an entry level game.

Sorry to be the voice of dissent but I still think that 40K is perfectly good for smaller sized games, i.e. <1000pts. But then i'm not too fussed by Special Characters or the idea of optimum builds etc.

Fafnir wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I don't see the problem. 250 pts of "Kill Team" is just fine for starting. If you want more detail, blend over Necroumunda.

Which then takes you back to the whole issue of how Necromunda has absolutely minimal overlap with 40k.

So? You can't tell a story from all of the 40k background material?

You want a game, you play a game. It's not so difficult or painful at all.

notprop wrote:The problem with suggesting Necromunda as an entry game is that it has more rules than 40K and therefore that little bit more complex. Which would be counter intuative for an entry level game.

This is a quite valid criticism. This is why I think the complicated rules need to be an expansion to the core game, rather than just a separate game. In my ideal world, each level expansion would have the same number of added rules, but the rules would be tailored to the scale. So the small-scale game would have no rules for vehicles for example. Squad-level leadership could be left out too maybe. Maybe the whole Force Organization chart could be left out. But then rules appropriate to that scale would be added. When players start up, they learn the core rules that are the same for all levels (movement, roll to hit, hth combat) and then if they want to go into more detail in each expansion they can.

JohnHwangDD wrote:So? You can't tell a story from all of the 40k background material?

You want a game, you play a game. It's not so difficult or painful at all.

I think you're missing the point of this thought exercise.

JOHIRA wrote:

notprop wrote:The problem with suggesting Necromunda as an entry game is that it has more rules than 40K and therefore that little bit more complex. Which would be counter intuative for an entry level game.

This is a quite valid criticism. This is why I think the complicated rules need to be an expansion to the core game, rather than just a separate game. In my ideal world, each level expansion would have the same number of added rules, but the rules would be tailored to the scale. So the small-scale game would have no rules for vehicles for example. Squad-level leadership could be left out too maybe. Maybe the whole Force Organization chart could be left out. But then rules appropriate to that scale would be added. When players start up, they learn the core rules that are the same for all levels (movement, roll to hit, hth combat) and then if they want to go into more detail in each expansion they can.

And include it all in one book.

OP's idea is excellent. I was thinking something similar, as there's too much of a barrier for players to get in now.

They must do the following:

1) Treat the system with respect, and promote it. In fact, they have to be ready for it to consume and cannibalise the main game if it comes to it.

2) Use existing figures, not make a new line that's only available on mail order.

Polonius wrote:it's pretty well known that for many years, car companies made more off of financing cars than from selling them for cash.

Don't even give GW that idea. "Zero down on the NEW SPACE MARINES, BUY NOW!! Six months same as cash, low low rates"

(( shudder ))